yes, I mentioned it in post 388 as a NON-GOTHIC 4

best,

I knew you did but alas I am unable to look at that mark as any shape of the cypher 4, whether Gothic or non-Gothic.

That however seems to be a problem of personal identification on my side.


Best,
m

maybe this close up picture helps.

best,

That did help indeed, thank you. ;)


I would not call that a classic non-Gothic numeral 4 though.

Most medievalists will agree that the Gothic numeral 4 in its 'typical' version is often misread as the upper half of the cypher 8, which actually is not true. In fact, '4' has only been turned to the right by 90 degrees since the 15th century and turned back to its present position again in the course of the first half of the 16th century.

If you look at it that way, the 'position' of the numeral 4 on the blade of that Katzbalger may well be alright, just not not quite what one would expect 'characteristically' and 'ideally'.

In order to illustrate how much the position of numeral 4 could vary - until the 'modern' version! - during the whole 15th c., I attached the following samples:


1407 (founding table of the Church of the Holy Spirit, Landshut, Bavaria), very unusual!

1436 (hatchment, Swiss National Museum Zurich)

1443 (bone of a mammoth, an inexplicable curiosity in the Gothic period)

1460 (mirrored version of numeral 4, on the crossbow of Ulrich of Württemberg, Metropolitan Museum of Art, N.Y.), unusually mirrored!

1478 (source unknown)

1481 (Old City Hall, Regensburg, Bavaria)

1481 (wrought-iron hackbut barrel, Munich; in my collection, and two nearly identical samples in Oberhaus Castle, Passau, Lower Bavaria):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=haquebut+1481

1481 (painting by Michael Wohlgemut), unusually modern!

1499 (Albrecht Dürer, Nuremberg, whose style was extremely 'advanced' in his time, on his portrait of Oswolt Krell)!



As you will see, no absolutely strict rules can be set up for a certain representation.



Best,
m

1474 (ratched of a cranequin, Probus sale, Stockholm 8 Nov 2010)

1488 (church in Haimhausen, near Munich, Bavaria)

1499 (painting by Michael Wohlgemut, at the threshold to the Early Modern Age)

1499 (model of a fire engine, Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg)

1493 (epitaph plate, former Figdor colln., Vienna)

1493 (another, from the same source)

1497 (Nuremberg)

1504 (Nuremberg bronze cannon barrel, town museum in Weismain, Bavaria)

1514 (Bülach, Switzerland), old style!

1514 (painting by Lucas Cranach, Dresden), modern style!

1547 (Salzburg, Austria)

1548 (bone plaque on a wheelock arquebus, Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen)

1548 (same gun)

1554 (blade of a Flamberg two-handed sword, town hall museum Stein am Rhein, Switzerland), Gothic style!!!



Once again, a great bandwidth of varieties is documented, and almost any style of representation may have been possible!
In traditional and far-off countries like Switzerland, the obsolete Gothic style prevailed even in the Renaissance epoque until at least the mid-16th c.!



m

Michael,

thank you this is very enlightening for me and extremely interesting, I Always saw the four a a half 8, actually now I see it is not.

If you rotate the Gothic 4 by 90 degrees you will indeed get the later 4.
Also very nice that you found and posted examples of these rotated 4 at the end of the 15th and begining of the 16thC century's.


best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,


Not to forget, at the beginning of the 15th c. this sort of writing style of 4 can be found as well: 1407!!!

Also, note the representation of the first numeral 1 as m, based on the Latin word mille, in the obsolete Romanesque/High Gothic style, denoting the mixture of writings at the threshold to the 'modern' Late-Gothic period of the early 15th century!


Best,
Michael

Wow, folks,


I just noticed that this thread had 60.035 views !!! as of today, 11 January 2014, midnight!
I have turned 61 today, and this doubtlessly is my greatest birthday present.

You've made it possible, thank you so much for trusting me, and for contributing that diligently, with 407 replies!


Good night to all of you, wherever you are,
and best,
Michael

a very happy birthday Michael,

indeed a beautiful birthday gift, congratulations on your 61th and many more years full of weapons inspiration, up to the 100.000 with this thread.

very best wishes from holland,
Jasper

small present: battle between landsknechts :) ;)

Oh my God, Jasper,


I'm so baffled that I don't know what to say, so I just say 'thanks a million' for that brilliant idea and the thoughtful gift etching of the Landsknechts! ;) :rolleyes: :cool: :eek:


Best wishes as ever,
Michael

Ah ... you Bavarian villain :mad:
I tought your aniversary was confidential :confused:
Well, here it goes with my wishes for the one zillion views.

PARABENS P'RA VOCÊ,
NESTA DATA QUERIDA,
MUITAS FELICIDADES
MUITOS ANOS DE VIDA


Relax, no bad thoughts; this is only the Portuguese version of Happy Birthday to you ;)

... and all the best for the new year to come in my life - I understand sufficient of any Roman language to be able and get the sense when I see it written down! :rolleyes:

Muito obrigado, amigo meu 'Nando!

Actually I was determined to keep my birthday secret because I never celebrate but then I got sort of carried away by those multiple views of my thread ...


m

Variations of Gothic Numerals
 

In addition to the instances posted in ##404 and 405, I would like to point out some more samples to illustrate the enormous bandwith of the spectrum of representing a certain Gothic cypher/numeral.

I also attached an illustration of an executioner's saw dated 1594, with cypher 4 still represented in the Gothic tradition,though done at the end of the 16th century!
The saw was at auction at Hermann Historica's, Munich, in October 2008.

Have fun!


Best,
Michael

Dear All,

and Michael, Jim, Jasper, Fernando and all other enthusiast here...

After reading on this forum I am truly amazed how much knowledge there is to be found here and it is for free !

I've been collecting for more than 35 years and it is a delight to be able to gain information here.

Now about the katsbalgers, for some reason they were always verry popular in Holland, however I never bought or traded one simply becauese in my opinion I never got an original in my hands and now I understand why... mayby someday

Kind regards

Ulfberth

I love this "thread"! So much information, that I must re-read it, and I appreciate all the beautiful pictures. Thank you ALL for the fantastic forum.

The Finest and Most Important Katzbalger for Sale - EVER!
 

Hi there,


Today, I must ask for understanding, for not posting here for such a long time.

In addition to computer problems that have not been solved yet (my machine will be off for a week for a general check), my fingers are getting paralyzed more and more every day; the diagnosis might beAmyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), the motor neuron disease that Stephen Hawking has. Even eating with a knife and fork has gotten very hard - and so has typing.

Nevertheless, here I present the finest preserved and most important Katzbalger to have been for sale ever. It is closely related to the famous specimen made for Ulrich von Schellenberg (now in the Vienna Armory, the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, and fetched a fantastic price with Bonhams on 26 November 2014.
You will remember Ulrich von Schellenberg's Katzbalger from my earlier posts in this thread, and find further images down here.

Like that museum sample, the one in discussion also retained its original tooled sheath/scabbard together with a bodkin (the original by-knife missing). Please note that the chape of the sheath is a 17th century replacement.
The pommel of the bodkin is made en suite to match that of the sword. A bodkin served at least two purposes: picking up food at a meal, and working as an awl or prick; for the latter task, it is pierced to receive a thread for sewing, allowing the Landsknecht to repair his clothes.
As I have often pointed out, the early Renaissance period was, among others, characterized by a great variety of combinations of weapons and tools.


Best as ever,
Michael

The latten-inlaid bladesmith's mark, the tooled sheath and the bodkin also serving as an awl.

Please note the leather tooling at the bottom finial of the compartment for the by-knife and bodkin, ending in a wavy decorative element wrought in high relief and merging into the stitches of the seam.
That characteristic serpent- or flame-like Early Renaissance ornament is found on various types of weapons and their accouterments:
http://www.vikingsword.com
/vb/showthread.php?t=8185&highlight=serpent+Early+Rena issance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ly+Renaissance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ly+Renaissance

Welcome back Michael !

We all missed you, I hope that your health stays stable so we can enjoy your company here and you'r knowledge.

Respectful greetings

Ulfberth

R.I.P. Michael -forever Matchlock
 

Just bumped this thread he was so proud of.

AMEN

One of my favorite threads... I only knew Michael through emails, but I will miss him, as a brother.