Ariel, I love you quote :-).

Miguel, it is fine with me - all members of this forum can believe in what they want.
Should I make a suggestion, it would be, that you try to investigate the katar thread further than I have done - it may take you a year or so, and then 'maybe' be can agree on something.

Ariel, always loved that quote from Shakespeare!!!

Jens,
You have only tenaciously studied the katar almost obsessively for 15 years that I know of!!!! :) and you had already been at it for years. Your collecting and researching on them has in my opinion surpassed the Victoria & Albert and others, and has had the attention of the Met in N.Y. and others.
I have seen you research some examples virtually to the very precise location in India where it was made! and the article on the Bundi katars is superb.
Then I remember years ago as you were studying friezes, temple iconography, miniatures, rare Indian articles and obscure books (this was even before Robert Elgood wrote Hindu Arms and Ritual in 2004). We pursued the bizarre gauntlet dagger/sword in Stone which was referred to as a boarding weapon termed a 'manople' and his source in Calvert (1903) which was not apparently related in this case.

When it comes to katars (and tulwars) there is nobody I know, or have known who has the knowledge on these weapons you do.

I am saying this simply because Jens' will not and will probably bend my ear for doing so. I would just like to profoundly note just who he is in the study of Indian arms. Though I have studied arms most of my life, most of what I have learned on Indian weapons has been from him and subjects we studied together.

Jim :-),
Thank you very much for your kind words, but you are overdoing it a lot :-).
It is true that I have researched for quite a number of years, and it is also true that I dont like to accept a sword on the wall, as I would like to know which history it is hiding - if any can be found. This, of course, includes reading a number of books other than weapon and history books, but it gives you a very good additionally knowledge.

I knew you would say that Jens:) but a you know, that is not unusual for me. I believe strongly in what I say, as it is never done lightly, and from considerable support. Your modesty is exemplary, but profoundly overshadowed by that knowledge.

It really is great to see the volume of interest and discussion on Indian arms and armour here of late, and you have always pioneered that course on these pages. I can only say thank you!!! and lets keep going!

Nicely put.

Hi Jens,
My opinion seems to have caused offence and I sincerely apologise if it has offended you as this was never my intention far from it I was just stating what I think. I will not take you up on your suggestion as I do not have it in me to carry out such research even if I had the time and resources, I have driven myself batty trying to establish the origin of the Coorgs without any success. My opinion was not intended in any way to belittle your research and I trust you will believe that.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Jim,

I cannot help but be surprised and saddened by your reply which I take was occasioned by my opinion re the Katar shown in the sketch and carving, I was just stating my honest opinion as simple as that. I have the utmost respect for the knowledge and research undertaken and still being undertaken by Jens and other forum members in their particular fields
and would never knowingly state anything to offend them but that surely does not prevent me from expressing an honest opinion.?
Regards
Miguel

Miguel, please rest asured that I have taken no offence at all, and I think that every member should give their version of how he/she sees it, or there would be no debate.
Now, for the Coorg question. There will, within some time, be an article published about part of the question. No, I dont yet know where or when.
I will however suggest that you concentrate on South Indian temples, and decorations of hero stones. Consentrade on South India and Deccan.
The curved knives 'moved' north to Nepal and a few other places, but was completely forgotten in the south - why??
I think this is the question, amongst others, you have to ask youtself. When you are at it - when was that??

Miguel,
There is absolutely no problem with your stating honest opinions!! in fact most of us here welcome inquisitive approaches to these seemingly never ending quests. Which was mostly what I was trying to say as a most respectful nod to my good friend Jens, in recognition of the many years of research he has put to the katar. My apologies if it sounded as if directed at you.....actually Jens has always been most receptive to any ideas or information which might be factored into his considerable corpus of research.
Your posts are well placed, thought out and above all courteous.
All best regards
Jim

The attached picture shows a sword with a handle like on the very early katar handle. If the man shown would be 170 cm tall, the weapon would be about 65 cm.
It is from South India, but I am sorry to say, that I done know from where it is, nor do I know the age of the frieze - but it lookss quite old to me.

Hi Jens, thank you it makes me feel a lot better and thanks for your tip re the Coorgs. To be honest I have not pursued my investigations for a few months due to being frustrated at seemingly every turn. I thought that I may have established a link with the Caucasians but could not properly substantiate it. I also purchased a number of books on ancient Indian peoples but have not found anything yet. Now you have given me a clue as to where I may look I will try again but in short doses this time to try and hopefully avoid to much frustration.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Jim, thanks for your reply and apologies for getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, I should have known better :o
Regards
Miguel

Hi Jens, I missed this one. This changes my opinion somewhat as the figure appears to be a man wielding the Katar looking weapon and not a six armed deity with one dangling from his fingers, thanks for posting.
Regards
Miguel

You are welcome.

Maybe this book would be of interest to you.
Mitra, Rajendralala: The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. Government of India 1875, reprint IndianStudies 1961.

Hi Miguel,
It is most heartening as I read on your clearly impassioned approaches toward properly understanding the extremely complex field of the arms and armour of India and Central Asia. Again, I do deeply apologize for not better directing my comments to Jens, which I had not realized would become such a faux pas.
As I explained, I have had the opportunity to work alongside him in many cases in the study of these very weapons over many years.

What I should have emphasized is how delighted myself, and I am sure Jens and others who have most seriously studied these weapons, are to have others join in this quest. Having new eyes and new ideas as well as more perspective in recalling what have become well travelled roads of years ago is outstanding.

The image Jens posted in his last post for example, brought to mind the term 'maustika'. While I recall the frieze, and the term, I could not immediately recall more on the word nor the image, but of course remember where it was from.

Searching the term 'maustika' on Google, it was amazing to see a discussion on this very subject between Jens, myself and B.I. who is a brilliant scholar on these weapons who used to write here. It was from these pages Apr 28, 2006, and we had all been years into the search already.

Apparantly I had found reference to this 'maustika' listed as a 'fist sword/dagger' in Richard Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1885, p214-215). Burton had in turn referenced this from Professor Gustav Oppert ("Weapons of the Ancient Hindus", 1880). Again, in turn, Oppert cited his reference from the 'Nitiprakashika' Book III.

This entry was resultant of a the study Jens had been doing on the origins of the katar, in particular of a small triangular blade with a transverse bar for a grip, as if the entire weapon was cast in one piece. This was from a line drawing and the actual weapon if I recall was from the Moser Collection (Bern, and the image from Holstein, 1931).
Returning to the frieze Jens just posted, I believe (again if memory serves) this represented the Goddess Mahisasuramardini, Durga, slaying the buffalo demon (Orissa temple frieze?, 13th c.).
This clear example of a transversely held dagger seems compellingly to be a katar, and the weapon from Holstein, an even earlier and simpler 'proto katar' (?).
In that particular discussion from 2006, the shield with blade or spike was also mentioned as I noted earlier here.

I wanted to share these notes from those earlier studies and discussions only to present them as perhaps benchmarks or ideas to further pursue various avenues toward the more conclusive resolutions we all clearly hope to achieve.

Best regards
Jim

Miguel, we crossed posts !!! Thank you! It is good to get back to this mystery, and with reinforcements :)

Well, it all started when I saw the drawing in Holsteins book, and realised it was from Mitra's book. I bought the book, and then I was on the track.
Jim it had nothing to do with the Moser Collection, so you may have mixed the notes, it had only to do with the Holstein catalogue and the Mitra book.
According to Mitra there seems to be more statues in Orissa with daggers like this one.
Attached is one of the plates showing weapons used in Orissa at the time, 7th to 13th century.
I find no 186 very interesting, but dont want to discuss it now. No 205 is the katar.

Thank you Jens, it has been a long time, and I don't have my notes and Indian details with me this trip. Clearly I misremembered about the Moser collection, but do recall this intriguing, simple but compelling item (#205) in the Holstein reference.
I don't recall anything about the Mitra reference, which of course I can blame on memory slippage as an age problem. :)

Salaams Miguel, As an observer in this debate I seem to note that no one can say where this weapon started life...I see references to Southern India and wonder where it entered the equation...but that it appears to have bounced around changing shape and developing like so many Indian weapons but leaving only traces of historical detective clues... The weapon appears in Sri Lanka see below and to my knowledge in what looks like its basic form in Martial Arts records from the same region. It occurred to me that it probably originated in Southern India because that is so close to Sri Lanka to where it may well have migrated early on.

Note that BM 179 below is a British Museum reference from https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ograms&f=false

The Martial Art reference is here on Library at

Miguel,

Perhaps Sainti might have been one of the side descendants of proto-katars ?

You may have wondered why I wrote, "If the man shown would be 170 cm tall, the weapon would be about 65 cm."
In Sultans of the South. MET, 2008. Klaus Rötzer writes an article Fortifications and Gunpowder in the Deccan, 1368-1687, pp. 204-217. In the article the author gives the avarange size to 1.70 cm.
I dont know from where he has this size, but I guess it is from measuring the fortifications.

Excellent note Jens, and we have had many discussions about the perspectives in measurements in India of the times.
In the note on this article on fortifications and gunpowder in the Deccan. I have reopened a thread on fortifications and guns (in this case Oman) but hope I can expand it to include the most pertinent influences in India as well.

Jim,
In the article the author shows some very early 'canons', which may be of interest for you on the other thread. So try to locate the article on the net.

Hi Jim, thanks for your most interesting reply, I have a lot to learn.
Regards
Miguel

Hello Ibrahiim, thanks for your reply. I think that your conclusion that it originated in Southern India is most likely correct and interestingly arrived at.
Regards
Miguel

We all do Miguel!!! Ive been at this most of my life (a more considerable span than I care to remember :) ) and am still trying to learn. Its a lot more fun when you are doing it with others, which is why we're here.

In the context of the discussion I recommend those who are really interested to understand the issue, examine the article: On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

http://historical-weapons.com/the-us...n-weapons-abs/

It is on the website in full version.

From the article...HERE IS THE ABSTRACT;

Abstract: This article examines the emergence in weapons complex of the Mughals one of the most emblematic Indian weapon – Jamdhar dagger and offers new, different from the preceding, interpretation of its use. The appearance of the original Indian phenomenon in the culture of the conquerors is based on written sources, as well as in the context of understanding the atmospheric interactions of the cultures of conquerors and the vanquished. In analysis the author relies on the translation of the original teхts and illustrative sources. The article explains that one of the main assignments of the dagger “jamdhar” was its use in the hunting of large predators, primarily, in self-defense from a wounded beast. As an elite attribute that emphasizes the owner’s status as a hunter of tigers and lions, the struggle with the beast, theriomachia, was anciently part of the Royal rituals, a kind of test of the applicant for authority and, at the same time, the procedure of confirming the right to exercise this power, the jamdhar dagger took the place of the status thing of the Indian aristocracy. By the time of the third Emperor of the Mughal Empire Akbar some elements of Indian culture were accepted by the conquerors, though, as a rule, a culture of the defeated a priori has a lower status and as a rule remains unexploited by the new elites. And only in case some prestigious forms of the local culture do not face with competitors in the culture introduced by the conquerors, they will have a chance of being accepted by the elite. In case of the jamdhar dagger, this form of the local culture became hunting for tigers and lions, which before the conquest of India was not a Mongol or Turkic tradition. Author also proves that in the decorative elements of decoration of jamdhar daggers in the depiction of predator attacks on prey, these scenes differ in their composition from the well-known “scenes of anguish” in Scythian and Iranian traditions. In Indian tradition there was an allusion that a warrior who had defeated a tiger, became tiger-like himself, and his enemies were similar to victim and prey. The scenes of such kind were analogues to battle scenes, which explain the lack of battle scenes in the ornament of jamdhar daggers. The tight connection to prestigious hunting was one of the reasons jamdhar dagger was established in the role of power insignia and was ensured an honorable place in the Mughal`s weapons complex.

The author posits that Katars entered the North Indian panoply of weapons primarily as a tiger-hunting weapon.
That surely explains the abundance of North Indian katars and the scarcity of North Indian tigers :-)

Interestingly, some people like - have a finger in every pie :)

Some read the article, but do not understand the meaning of the article.

It seemed to me that here in the forum all are able to read independently and can form an opinion about other people's articles (without distorted presentation)

Most interesting perspective, but while the syntax of your comments are remarkably clear, I am markedly unclear on what you mean. You are saying that Mr. Kurcochkin's abstract is distorted?
Thank you for the generous observation on the acumen of those of us here in the forums in reading and forming personal opinions on articles written. It seems that being judged when expressing those opinions here becomes a bit of a problem.

Ariel, pretty good analogy on the case of katar vs. tiger!

Jim, I want to say that it is possible overdo any words to absurdity.

Miguel, did you ever take your research of the curved south Indian swords any further? If you did, please let us know.
The kora like sword used in earlier times in the south, may not have travelled to Nepal, but may have gone out of fashion, or others on the route likely would have seen its great potential as a fighting sword.
The article about the Coorg swords, will be published in September in The Royal Armoury's journal - I think.

Jim,
Who is the author of the article on Coorg weapons?

Pretty good will be to learn something new or rather something old. For example that still now somewhere in India the jamdhar dagger it is still called as "tiger dagger" or "tiger knife". Or in sanskrit the word "katari" means exactly "hunting dagger". As well as the word "jamdhar" was never the "teeth of Yama" except in the imagination of the British colonizers. "Jamdhar" meant in ancient India just "double edge weapons". So "jamdhar katari" it is not some kind of any the Hindu Kush dagger.
Too much garbage from books with numerous color images ;)

You are largely correct: far too many books ( and supposedly academic articles as well) lazily repeat statements of earlier authors. Sometimes it is almost funny: Pant, a native Indian arms historian, relied heavily on Rawson, an accidental author of a book on Indian swords. Errors of the past have a tendency to perpetuate and eventually become dogmas or a grudging acquiescence to the commonality of usage. Elgood in his Jaipur book informed us that what is traditionally called "Bhuj" is in reality a "Mujawli". The name "Bhuj" was invented by the British who just used the name of a town where they could buy these axes/knives and stayed in one book after another since. It, just like the Karud, will likely stay in our lexicon simply because far too many of us are used to it.

Elgood is currently working on a humongous glossary of terminology of Eastern weapons. I am waiting for it with great anticipation: he is the ultimate obsessive-compulsive person in the best sense of the word and is well-known for his deep digging into primary sources. I am sure our trips to the bookshelves in search of a dog-eared copy of Stone will dramatically decrease after that. Well, strike it out: not "sure", but "hope".

Hello Stan,

I can see one possible explanation.
The Katar was a pretty expensive weapon with a very well reputation. Not everybody could afford a Katar.
So the Jamdhar could be an attempt to catch a little bit of the aura of a Katar for a much lower price. A weapon for lower ranks.

Just a guess!


Roland

I completely agree. But as to the word "bhuj" I have a slightly different consideration but in general you are right.

Great news! It is high time to update the terminology that has not changed for a hundred years. Let's hope that he will be able to attract competent specialists for the Indian part.

........