Dear All,

I found in net an image of a Madurese wrongko. You can see the same form of crown with a decorative feather in the middle (the form on the "visor" of the hilt, regarded in this thread) , flanked by a dragon and a winged horse. So, I think, there is a strong possibility, this ensemble is related to landhian pulasir, there is a crown element, and therefore it has european influences.

I find myself wondering at what point in time these symbols became simply motifs and began to be combined for aesthetic purposes only ?

Or do we think this is not the case ?

Yes, the iconographical ensemble of Dannys hilt seems to be an "eclectic" one also to me, or more "eclectic" then landhian pulasir.

But nevertheless, at first we probably should identificate the symbols (at the beginning of this thread there was an opinion, there is no flying horse, no dutch crown depicted (so no european influences). Now we have a pair of dragon and pair of (very possibly) flying horse wings, with a specific kind of crown, also depicted on a wrongko, as well as draperie), and pursuit their meanings, as far as possible, and their changes. I think it is very important.

Of course there is the crucial barrier between symbol and ornament, but I have the feeling, this barrier is different in the euro-american and eastern or specifically javanese art. I may be wrong, of course. One should keep in mind, that the euro-american culture (or the progressive part of it) at latest since 1920 is almost ornament-free, and so for us today ornament is always something exotic and foreign, and I must say, meaningless.

As I wrote in a previous post, this iconographic ensemble is later then landhian pulasir in my oppinion, becouse of advanced "hiding" or dissolving of elements (the bodys of dragon and horse), duplicating them (the "sun" motive).

But this specific kind of crown I have never see on landhian pulasir, and never on such "visor" place on another kind of hilt, just on this one more or less related and probably slightly older ensemble from post 79 (of course, I have a very small experience), and I came across of a couple of such hilts now, who are similar one to another (just as landhian pulasir are). So there is a certain stabile group of elements, and even if it were created at 1900, it is interesting to pursuit these elements and this certain combination of elements.