hilt material ?
 

Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny

Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)

hilt material ?
 

Hello,

could you send a picture from the hole and its surrounding?


guwaya

Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,


Danny

Ivory ?
 

Hi Danny,

Are you sure it is Ivory ?
Have you made the traditional hot needle test?
The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded.
I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt.
Regards
Michel

Hi Michel,

No need to apologize,

Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt.

So no plastic or someting like it.

Hi Danny,

Thank you for the extra photo.

At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye. I have no idea at the moment - sorry.

Guwaya

Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory .
Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures



I would not stake my life on it though !! :eek:

Also i think it's marine ivory

Hi Danny,

Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter?

Regards Michel, amsterdam

Hi Michel. It would probably be helpful if you could explain exactly what characteristic of this hilt date it as being pre-1825? :)

hallo
danny
nice hilt ,but no ivory
what is nice to i have allmost the same hilt on a keris
given to me in indonesia in 1970
simlar but not the same ,mine one is bone
greet jan
:p :p :p

Hi Michel,

Yes it,s from peter.

But pleas explain why you think its from before 1825 ?

And has some one a hilt with the same figure ? I do only know the ones
with the horse , crown , epaulets etc...

Danny

The structure and color makes me think of a hilt I have.
See this old thread :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=raja+abala

Ok, but which animal / define marine ivory ?
There are quite a lot of sea mamals that can provide teeth that are workable :
Sperm whale ? orca/killerwhale ? seacow/dujong ? Walrus ? Narwal ?

Jan, i am certainly no expert on ivory, but there are some really obvious differences between bone and ivory that even i can see in close-up photographs like these. The "growth ring" type structure that is evident in these photos most definitely identifies this hilt as ivory. Perhaps yours is indeed bone, or maybe it is ivory and you are just unaware. Post some close-ups and perhaps we will be able to help you identify it. :)
The question that is more difficult, at least for me, is what type of ivory is it. I also lean toward marine ivory.

Well Willem, you are certainly getting beyond my ability to differentiate. :)

Gentleman its getting a intrseting discusion. :D

I hope that we can figure it out what kind of animal did use this teeth to eat
before it did became a keris hilt .?

And also i.m realy curious how old it could be.

There have been several threads where ID-ing ivory was discussed.

A recent one with info / links and examples was this one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...identification

Hello David, at this moment I am also just able to ask the questions, and not yet to answer them :o

I'm still thinking Potvis as you suggested, Henk err, Willem .

I'd be very interested in seeing an example of a bone hilt that looks anything like this .

Lack of dots would negate Hippo as the source .
Very nice patina and wear on this jejeran.

I love the Sun face .

Hello Guwaya,
Do you have examples of this bull eye effect ?

Suppose you meant me ? ;)
Best regards,
Willem

Sorry Willem . :o ;)

Do you have examples of this bull eye effect ?

Sorry - but I don't have.
Guwaya

Hello Danny, maybe this is interesting for you,

in a Dutch-forum it's said:

that the image suggest: the sun of Solo.

The (royal) Madurese wanted to show that their family was related to the Sunan, (See the arms of the Sunan: there are sunbeams in processed)

(hope I have translated well) :)

to see the original topic with picture:

http://www.dekris.nl/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65

Hallo Sirek,

Thank you for youre input.

It,s a intresting opinion , is the some one else that also have this opinion?


Sirek if you have more intresting info you can pm me if you want (
gewoon nederlands )

regards,

Danny

Well if that is the same Semar who posts here perhaps he will join this conversation with further information. I love the carving of the one on the other forum. Can you post it here Semar, for comparison? :)

hallo david
 

hai again david
i do not say ,his kris is bone ,mine is
but i do not think it is ivory like the stuff from a elephant
i might come from a other animal
photos on forum ,yes we can do and yes we will do
afther i made mine trip to asia
mine photo are never good and sharp
so i will let some one do it
to go back to the hilt it is very nice ,but i woder a bit
over the sharpness ,like michel did say
grt vampire :) :) :)

I think we are looking at real wear and patina here Jan .

If that sucker is molded then someone went to an awful lot of trouble to create a forgery .

hallo
rick mine old friend
a moment of peace
i did say nothing about a forgery
and i also did not take the word molded in mine reply
only if i compare it with mine pice ,it seems to miss
some sharpness yes do not read me wrong
one thihg it comes out of indonesia oke
i have spend some years there working with
pertamina oil-comp
i see the hilt is from there and it is no elephant
ivory but a other animal
and for all reasons is it handmade also in asia some
are made with other meth, oke
the big question is ,is danny happy with it
yes oke i only did try to put mine dime in this
and rick i think we started of on the wrong foot yes
let say i did oke ,soon it is new year let it be
give me your adress will mail you nice book st claus
grt jan :p :p :p

Rick,

i also think it,s realy age wear on the hilt.

i can post this one on the other forum to look if there wil come a reaction.

regards,

danny

because the growth rings I still think that this is made from a natural material :rolleyes:

maybe for comparison some foto's of a molded grip I own:

Jan, there is no war . :)

Maybe a bit of a language interpretation problem, nothing else .

I've been here too long to let this stuff get to me . :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember one of my first Keris like objects . :D

This keris had a Madura style hilt of the same general form; when I received it I discovered to my dismay that it had been cast from the same material they make dental models from ... :o

Vampire (jan)

why you dont send me a pm in dutch , its maybe a idea so i can understand
what you mean with youre reply,s .

I realy dont understand what u want to say to me ( us )?


Its quite clear this is a old hilt with wear of age and patin from what is genneraly cald ivory .. from elefhant or a other (sea) animal.

regards,

danny

danny
be happy with your ivory hilt
if i had it i put it in mine ivory tower
i think also it is from some beast
but old i do not think so ,it came not so long ago out of indonesia
sorry ,they stand on the sale sides of bali ,sorry
again ,i think you will not agree ,to bad
i hope ya understand this english .i do it again in dutch
danny
wees blij met je ivoren aankoop
net als ik zeg stop het in een ivoren toren
ik denk ook dat het van een of ander beest is
maar oud nee dit kwam pas uit indonesia
sorry .je vindt ze terug op de verkoop sides van bali
nogmaals sorry
ik denk dat we het niet eens zijn met elkaar
niet erg ik woon in amsterdam kan je altijd een heft laten
zien geen peobleem in hollands engels en malaya
groet en blijf verzamelen ,als jij het maar leuk vindt
jan groet
:) :) :)

Hello Danny,

tomorrow I will post some pictures of a very similar hilt from my collection. My one is from wood. The material from your hilt may be sperm whale like some other already assume. The surface of your hilt is vitreous, a sign for this material.

Regards,

Detlef

I think we are have just a wee bit of language difficulties here. Let me try to me clearer.
Jan, people are responding to your early post because you clearly stated "nice hilt, but no ivory".
Now you have clarified that statement by saying it is not from an elephant, but from some other animal. Perhaps you are unaware that ivory comes from many different kinds of animals. If you read the posts on this you will see that no one else here thinks it is elephant either. The consensus seems to be leaning towards marine ivory, meaning from some sea-bound mammal. It could be dunong (sea cow), it could be from a whale. But all these animals produce material that is know as ivory. Danny's hilt if clearly made from one of these ivories. Right now the only question in my mind if which one and i am not convinced we will come to any definite conclusion on that.

David ,

Thanks you for trying to explain it to vampire.

I don,t think there is a problem with the language , english is not my mother language also but i can follow quite clear what everybody write,s and i hope you people can understand my writing although it is not perfect english.

The problem with jan is a think just a stubern ''i know better mentality''


Jan i will play the 'rough unpolited '' dutch man back to you maybe you can understand this way bettter?

Stop with omong kossong i realy get a kepala sakit after reading your coments !

Interesting Danny,
Did you say something about Bull waste and a splitting headache ?

Let's go back to the beginning.

looking at the pictures i asked myself is it really ivory?/ is it an old hilt?
- The kind of carving is indeed not to sharp. ( even in the early days ivory was scarce, carvers low paid, and have more time to make little masterpieces.
.....especially for someone with royal connections, looking at the symbol of the son.
imo its not patine / or worn off, looking at the front; the triangles are different size. Ivory is an hard material is does not quicly show patine, and if so the inside stays like it is.

The hot needle is just an test, and not every new material melts away.

, I cannot lay my finger behind this...what exactly the material is, but i would not say its ivory. I some hilts myself.
1. Onknown material molded?; even stands the hot knive test. ( at the backside some airholes?

2. Old ivory, with patine

You know, the hilt is not in my hands so i guess anything is really possible, but we really have seen quite a lot of ivory hilts on this forum. This first hilt, IMO, shows all the signs of being real ivory. If they are making molds that look like this i would be sincerely impressed. :rolleyes:
The first example you show Simatau clearly is a composite material and that shows itself very clearly as an unnatural material. Danny's hilt looks nothing like this material though.
As for age, i am less inclined to form an opinion. While ivory does not patina quickly there are many methods available to create patina and color. I am willing to except that it is possible that this is not an old hilt, that the age might have been artificially added, but the material sure looks like ivory to me regardless of the actual age. You experts might know better. :)

Hi Danny,

here the pictures from my wooden hilt.

To Simatua: Like I write before, it's just not possible to be sure by pictures but I see grain, I see cracks at Danny's hilt so it would be a masterwork of molding when it is not some sort of ivory.

Regards,

Detlef