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-   -   Bali ceremonial knife (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16537)

Gustav 20th December 2012 09:34 PM

Bali ceremonial knife
 
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Dear All,

finally it has found his new owner, and I think, it would be interesting to start a discussion about it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-IND...=item19d74a7316

At first sight I thought it would be the real thing, but then... one thing for sure: it would be the first one of this kind I see without the "Banji" (swastika) ornament. And there are some other strange features.

Is this one an attempt to cheat or just a less fine or more recent example of its kind?

Gustav 20th December 2012 09:36 PM

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Pics continued:

Gustav 20th December 2012 09:39 PM

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And more:

Atlantia 20th December 2012 09:51 PM

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Hi Gustav,

It's a nice knife, shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don't.

Artzi had a similar one on his website some time ago:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1812

Atlantia 20th December 2012 09:55 PM

I have two 'cousins'.
Sadly neither comes with the oversized ceremonial scabbard, the "party dress".
One of mine is 'naked' and the other only has it's 'everday' scabbard.
Both of mine have the 'swastika' geometry.

Sajen 20th December 2012 10:22 PM

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Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia 20th December 2012 10:38 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef


Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

Sajen 20th December 2012 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?


Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav 20th December 2012 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.


Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

Sajen 20th December 2012 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".



Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy. :shrug:

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

Gustav 21st December 2012 05:33 AM

Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4:

No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

Battara 21st December 2012 04:14 PM

Ceremonially what were these used for?

CharlesS 21st December 2012 04:34 PM

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Atlantia 21st December 2012 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.


Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......


Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

Atlantia 21st December 2012 06:19 PM

Hi Guys
If you do a little digging into the archives there are some great threads on these rare and interesting knives.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html

Albert 21st December 2012 08:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy. :shrug:

Maybe Albert will help by this question.



That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Sajen 21st December 2012 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert
That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert


Thank you very much for clarification!


Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia 21st December 2012 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef


Hi Detlef :D

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Sajen 21st December 2012 09:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Detlef :D

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene


Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav 21st December 2012 11:11 PM

I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head").

I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

Sajen 21st December 2012 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.



Hello Gustav,

will try to ask a Balinese I know if he can tell us more.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara 22nd December 2012 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......


Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

Well I feel like an idiot now! :o

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it! :rolleyes: ).

Thanks.......

Atlantia 22nd December 2012 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Well I feel like an idiot now! :o

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it! :rolleyes: ).

Thanks.......


ROTF!!!
I do it all the time, don't worry at all mate.

Atlantia 22nd December 2012 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef


Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo again Gene,

FWIW ..... I refer to mine as Balinese Blakas.

Best,


I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things..... ;)

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before :( Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Sajen 22nd December 2012 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:



I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things..... ;)

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before :( Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene


Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia 22nd December 2012 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef


Hi Detlef,

Thanks, that clears it up nicely.
So tiuk pengentas it is!

VVV 22nd December 2012 07:38 PM

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I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around?
Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name.

Michael

PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade.
I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator.

Battara 23rd December 2012 02:10 AM

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Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.

Sajen 23rd December 2012 12:29 PM

Hello all,

here the answer I just received from Bali:

Dear Detlef,
Thank you for your email and the link, of course I still remember you. I try to give a small information about "tiuk pengentas", in Bali we use tiuk pengentas as one of a must thing for cremation ceremony, to open the wrap of the body we use tiuk pengentas which symbolize to open another word for the soul,and hope that the soul will get a good way. after we bring the body to cemetery, we also use tiuk pengentas to open the tie of the buffalo statue, there is a hole inside the buffalo to put the body and burning the body inside.
I hope my little explanation can give you a little information.
kindly regards,
Ketut Karang


I have asked him further questions and will post his answer here when I have received it.
Regards,

Detlef

Sajen 23rd December 2012 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.



Hello Jose,

yes, I think so.


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