Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Knife/dagger identification problem (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13912)

buendia 11th June 2011 12:38 PM

Knife/dagger identification problem
 
1 Attachment(s)
I don`t have any idea where this knife comes from. I thought maybe Balkans, but I didn`t find anything really similar. Can you help?
The knife is about 25cm long.

tom hyle 11th June 2011 01:12 PM

Is the grip one-piece with a full length stalk tang? Is it horn?

Atlantia 11th June 2011 01:41 PM

For some reason I'm also thinking Balkan/Turkish possibly Greek....

Nice piece!

Lew 12th June 2011 03:04 AM

I agree looks Turkish.

buendia 13th June 2011 01:02 AM

Grip is made of horn, but I didn`t have it in my hands so far. I`ll write more about it on Tuesday. What`s an English term for the punched embelishments on the blade? It was very common in the whole Carpathian region till WW1/WW2.

buendia 17th June 2011 04:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle
Is the grip one-piece with a full length stalk tang? Is it horn?

Answer to both questions is YES.

I have found very similar ornaments on the blades of Bosnian and Silesian highlanders` traditional knives (respectively).
Silesian highlanders live on the Czech - Polish border, and are the most north-western descendants of Vallachian shepherds from the Balkans (came in 15th century). The similarities are conspicuous.

tom hyle 18th June 2011 11:34 AM

Such a tang seems more Persian or European than Turkish.

sisi_d 7th August 2011 07:55 PM

This is a Bosnian or Croatian knife. They are called youth knives are worn by young men who were not married.

gp 21st May 2022 10:26 PM

5 Attachment(s)
the first knife is typical Balkan, comming from the Ottoman influence but found in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia till 1945.

The other is typical for Bosnia and surrounding border area of Croatia and Serbia. Also backdating from the Ottoman times.
Typical are the circular , sometimes straighh lines, looking like a "naive"like semi sun with little stars around.
As you can see in the examples.

Used as multi use knives for fishing, hunting and such. Given to older boys but also a good companion for an adult , and ...useful if needed in a fight in those days.
They also exist with a slight longer blade.

gp 21st May 2022 10:37 PM

2 Attachment(s)
2 more examples of the first one which are from 1930-1945 Croatia

David R 21st May 2022 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buendia (Post 122116)
Grip is made of horn, but I didn`t have it in my hands so far. I`ll write more about it on Tuesday. What`s an English term for the punched embelishments on the blade? It was very common in the whole Carpathian region till WW1/WW2.

We used to call it wigglework or wiggle work a traditional cheap and fast metal embellishment, but don't bother trying to reference it on google. All references are swamped by other irrelevant stuff now..... Ooh hang on "engraved by wiggle-work on metal" delivers this. https://robbinacekeller.wordpress.co...i-mean-wiggle/

Sajen 22nd May 2022 08:07 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by gp (Post 272068)
2 more examples of the first one which are from 1930-1945 Croatia

Hi Gunar,

I think the two knives are different from the knife in question, similar yes but different.

I guess that my knife, shown in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black is a match.

Regards,
Detlef

ariel 22nd May 2022 01:12 PM

The clasp knife is a classical Ваlkan example: short and wide blade with a pronounced clip point. There are many identical examples shown in Tarik Gozo’s book “ Balkan Arms”. The exaggerated clip point is likely a purely technical feature to fit the wide blade into the curved handle: otherwise the blade would massively protrude and make the overall contour uncomfortable. The only example of a similar blade I know is the so-called Malappuram Katti from Kerala: but that area in India was heavily influenced by Arabs and Turks.

But what is really interesting is the blades of the non-clasp variety. They are identical to the panoply of Central Asian P’chaks , commonly known as “Bukhara” or “Uzbek” knives: among the shown examples we see Tugri ( point at the level of the spine), Kaike ( point raised above the spine) and Kazakhcha ( narrow blade with a short clip point). It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

gp 25th May 2022 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 272076)
It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

could well be: in some Turkish literature this is also mentioned and one Turkish history professor specifically mentioned the origin of these type of knives backdating to the early Turcish tribal dagger types of late Middle Ages to 16th/17th century.
I have the text in English but never knew how to interpret this "claim"

gp 25th May 2022 08:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen (Post 272070)
Hi Gunar,

I think the two knives are different from the knife in question, similar yes but different.

I guess that my knife, shown in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black is a match.

Regards,
Detlef

you are correct: yours and the link are way earlier (pre WWI I would think) than the 2 which I showed.
Yours originate from the Ottoman times or taken as example from them by good makers. Similar can indeed be found in other regions
The 2 which I showed are not that bad but way less and locally made by some craftsmen in Southern Croatia or Herzegovina, decades later WWII or just a decade prior that when a decline in the craftmanship early started or just a cheap and simpler version was made for a non "noble"...
definitely a quality difference as well indeed

gp 3rd June 2022 03:27 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 272076)
The clasp knife is a classical Ваlkan example: short and wide blade with a pronounced clip point. There are many identical examples shown in Tarik Gozo’s book “ Balkan Arms”. The exaggerated clip point is likely a purely technical feature to fit the wide blade into the curved handle: otherwise the blade would massively protrude and make the overall contour uncomfortable. The only example of a similar blade I know is the so-called Malappuram Katti from Kerala: but that area in India was heavily influenced by Arabs and Turks.

But what is really interesting is the blades of the non-clasp variety. They are identical to the panoply of Central Asian P’chaks , commonly known as “Bukhara” or “Uzbek” knives: among the shown examples we see Tugri ( point at the level of the spine), Kaike ( point raised above the spine) and Kazakhcha ( narrow blade with a short clip point). It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

update / follow up:

just bought one of the non-clasp / straight variety ones (together with a clasp one) in Hercegovina where they are sometimes found & offered for sale and it looks very similar to both shown ones at the top and by Detlef's link. It is a typical knife known and used in the past there, confirmed by the local folks.

With the interaction in the Ottoman times it could well be some kind of exchange took or could have taken place between regions perhaps.
Unfortunately a lot is written about big fancy swords and daggers but hardly anything on this smaller knives

werecow 4th June 2022 06:18 PM

Is that a regulation size cat?

kronckew 5th June 2022 12:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow (Post 272453)
Is that a regulation size cat?

There is no such thing as a regulation size cat, they vary dimensionally, but not mentally. They ALL love boxes, and will push things off shelves, counter tops, cliffs, edges in general.

They all will quite happily live with humans, and even love and protect their own human pride members. But they remain cats. Obligate Carnivores. As long as you feed them and respect their personal space, you are relatively safe.

Just remember that if they get hungry, you are ultimately their mobile food store. They always have a plan in the back of their heads on how to kill and eat you. Remember, the cat is ultimately in charge, not you. You are its servant.

gp 6th June 2022 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow (Post 272453)
Is that a regulation size cat?

which one are you refering to ?
the one in the left picture or the kitten in the right...?:)


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