'Three moons' motif on katzbalger blade (see same motif on German coat-of-arms)
 

Hello,

In reference to the 'Three moons' motif mark found on blade of 16th century Katzbalger : as mentioned previously, such an IDENTICAL 'three moons' motif is found on German coat-of-arms (see third quarter) of Sachsen-Lauenburg, indicating an actual german origin of such motif, rather than african or so (as suggested in some posts). I will search in other german cities coat-of-arms too.

jm :rolleyes:

'Three orbs and crosses' motif (in a triangle) is typical german mid-16th century
 

Hello,

The 'three orbs and crosses' motif (three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle) is described to be typical german mark of the mid-16th century. There is a previous post in the forum showing exactly the same pattern of three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle.

jm

Katzbalger: shapes of 'three orbs & crosses' & 'Passau wolf' are typical 16th century
 

Hello,

Here are some information from specialized books, that I got on the web (Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, published in 1885; Gyngell's Armourers marks, page 30).

- The shape of 'orb and cross' motif found on katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one shown on pic (plate 1: number 24, and plate 2: middle orb mark), indicating a 16th century period, coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'three orbs and crosses' motif -with orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle- is also reported to be typical German 16th century (not shown in this post: I have to refind it on the web :shrug: ), also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'Passau running wolf' motif etched on both sides of katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one described to be mid-16th century, also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade. Interestingly, it has some additional details that were also reported amongst known variants of the 'Passau running wolf' (see plate 3, number 14).

Such blade marks are therefore totally coherent with a German 16th century blade... :rolleyes:

jm

Another period katzbalger with a similar blade (without any fullers)
 

Hi,

Here is another 16th century katzbalger (found among forum posts) that does not show any fullers on blade. Interestingly, a renaissance poem is etched on the blade :D

jm

Additional pic of 16th century katzbalger
 

Here is an additional pic of katzbalger.

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

@ Michael,

which two katzbalgers do you mean ?, the first katzbalger is posted by Lee in your katzbalger thread!!!!(also in post#37 of this thread)
I do believe Lee's katzbalger is a genuine piece! probably with a later added poem.

and the second one is the katzbalger of Jean-Marc under discussion :confused:


@ Jean-Marc
the type and shape of the katzbalger are in accordance with katzbalgers which are known.
The symbols from the 16th century are also well known.

nevertheless there are some features that I find difficult to place:
- The grip is made outof one single piece of iron, there is no horn ring used between the guard and pommelgrip, this differs from the known katzbalgers of this type.

- The three moons in the blade are struck in as a makers mark, a coat of arms would have been engraved in the blade not stamped.
Also, the size and position is rather unusual for a makers mark.

- The Passau wolf and orbs are engraved very lightly on the surface.
many of these marks are deeper and often also have an inlay in latten hammered in.

- The "business" damage to the edge is ​​too extreme.

I really hope like you that this turns out to be an original katzbalger, but my advice is to have this investigated by a specialist with the piece in hands.

hopes it helps

best,

O.k., you cannot prove the 'authenticiry' of a 19th c. item by comparing it with another 19th c. companion. Of course, they are similar and show the same characteristics - but they are both not genuine.

Guess I'd better quit on this topic. I know what I know and I stick to what I said.

Best,
Michael

Katzbalger
 

Hi,
Thanks for the posts.
Indeed, the first katzbalger is from Lee. You are right on the different points and also when saying that one should have the sword in hands to analyze it with better feeling and accuracy in judgment. Last week, I have shown the beast to an old senior collector owning an incredible collection of antique swords and armors he started in the 1970's (of course very rich ! I got the landsknecht captain armor with him); After careful expertise de visu, he confirmed the katzbalger is fully renaissance period (not composite), similar to the advised opinion of Ton Bolk.

Jm

Hi Michael
 

Hi Michael,

Contrary to your opinion on this thread, I do think both katzbalgers are genuine, of renaissance period. No doubt about that, but please stay with us on this thread !

Thanks in advance,

Jm

'Three moons' motif on katzbalger and flag of Von Frundsberg (father of Landsknechts)
 

Hello all,

I discovered an interesting find (at least to me): when looking at the book entitled 'The Landsknechts' (Mens-at-arms series number 58, Douglas Miller and GA Embleton), I noticed that, facing the third quarter of coat-of-arms depicting the 'three moons' motif (which is found on katzbalger's blade), the fourth quarter of the same coat-of-arms shows the personal flag/standard of Georg Von Frundsberg (Lord of Midelheim), the father and supreme commander of Landsknechts ! :)
Therefore, it appears clear that this particular 'three moons' motif should be somehow 'linked' to the Landsknechts...

jm

To Michael: for information, the etching ('Passau wolf' and 'three orbs and crosses' motifs) on katzbalger's blade is not light (the pics of poor quality do not actually render justice to etching).

the third quarter of sachsen-lauenburg coat of arms are no moons but three water-lily leaves, standing for the County of Brehna! see picture count Friedrich.
the crossed swords indicate the Saxon office as Imperial Arch-Marshal meaning the Saxon privilege to elect a prince.
This weapon of "kurzschwerter"are widely spread among the German nobility.

Unfortunately the logic of your theory in the previous post escapes me completely. :confused:

Due to the average execution and workmanship, this katzbalger is not very convincing. it looks like there is not much support to find, to designate this katzbalger as original 16thC.

though I also incline strongly to a later 19thC reproduction, it can still be authentic.
if you can live with this that's fine, if you want more certainty, you can ask a specialist/authority in the known auction houses.
For example, Hermann Historica; Robert Weis or Nicholas McCullough
they have made an excellent cataloque describtion of the Karsten Klingbeil collection.

best,

Coat-of-arms over time
 

Thanks Cornelistromp for giving your opinion, that appears to have now evolved (and which is not mine).
In heraldry, the quarters of almost every coat-of-arms vary significantly over the years or decades. Accordingly, I found another shape for the same quarter, also resembling the 'three moons' motif but still different from the two presented here.

jm

A documentation of typical 19th-20th century Katzbalger copies similar to the one posted here in post 45 is available!

I do not wish to post them here so anybody interested please pm me and you will receive that documentation, including close-ups and current market prices!

Best,
m

Follow up on katzbalger's authenticity (16th century)
 

Hello,

According to the last post of Cornelistromp, I have sent yesterday a series of detailed pics (up to 5.5 Mo resolution each !) of my katzbalger to famous Andrew Garcia for expertise (Armor4Sale: Authentication and Valuations of Antique Arms and Armor, including a service of museum restorers). He just replies that, from the pics, this katzbalger is actually all 16th century :D
This opinion is shared by advised persons or experts in antique swords, such as Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International), David Gray, Raymond Tort and Ton Bolk (Bolk Antiques, a leading specialist dealer in Europe of Fine Antique Arms and Armor). Of note, some of them have had the katzbalger in hands.

jm

Hi JM,

Would you be interested in reading the documentation on Historismus Katzbalgers I announced?

If so, please pm me and leave your email.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Ok. Thanks. Please send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

jm

Hi Jean-Marc,

After seeing Michaels mail, which can not be published here in this thread because it is about a similar/same katzbalger as yours in a future auction, (it can be published after the Hermann Historica auction).
Iam unfortunately 100 percent sure that your katzbalger is a reproduction.
Iam very sorry for this information.

Best,

Hi Cornelistromp,

Are you referring to his posts such as the previous one mentioned below ?
If yes, this is not convincing at all.

'This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael'

To Cornelistromp:

Or are you referring to Michael's previous posts I just found on this forum ?


Michael's post 1:
A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).
Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).


Michael's post 2:
Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?


Celtan's post (Manuel):
Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s
: )
Manuel


Michael's post 3:
Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.
I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.
Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.
With all my best wishes,
Michael


Therefore, if Michael describes an actual 19th century katzbalger replica as being a 16th century original katzbalger, one might suggest that he will find an original 16th century katzbalger as being a 19th century katzbalger replica !

Am I right ??? :rolleyes:

jm

Important: Identification of 16th (vs 19th) century katzbalgers
 

Dear Cornelistromp,

I know what is the clue -together with Michael- to identify with 'certainty' 19th century produced katzbalgers : the so-called 'pas d'ane' construction (stairs-like) of the hilt, a technique to work metal that did not exist in the 16th century but which existed in the 19th century and later on. This would be indeed actually a clue to formally identify later katzbalger replicas.
Importantly, you should be aware that the presence of some parallel lines along the groove of hilt does not always imply a 'pas d'ane' construction, and related later technology. I have carefully inspected under optical magnification the metal hilt of my katzbalger, especially focusing inside the grooves on both sides of hilt: the parallel lines that could be observed along the groove are NOT a 'pas d'ane' construction, but clearly hand-made file marks, that are more or less linear and regular, not continuous, more or less deep into the metal, depending on the part of groove you are looking at (orientation of lines sometimes left the groove itself further demonstrating unambigously it could NOT be a 'pas d'ane' construction !). These files marks -clearly identify as such- correspond to a hand-made finish of the hilt's groove with appropriate forgery instruments existing in the renaissance period.

Hope this would help in preventing of some mistakes regarding sword authentification,

jm

NB: To illustrate this, some parallel lines of hand-finish can be also seen in some pics showed in the new thread of Michael (see his period Saxon patrons) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...573#post136573

Hi JM,

Unfortunately this criterion alone won't do the trick. There is so much more to the problem: overall length, hilts, blades, marks, 'wolves', etc. And this cannnot be done by words of descriton but by photographic comparison alone.

Why do you not want to see this documentation? After all, it took me quite some time to set it up - and I did it especially for you ...

m

Hi Michael,

I already asked you in a previous post to send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

Thanks,

jm

Sorry for overlooking that but I do not have your email. Perhaps Jasper can help! m :)

Iam skiing in france so Iam not able to help unfortunately.
Please go to www.hermann-historica.com sale 64 lot 2394 for a similar katzbalger as yours.

Brilliant idea, Jasper,

Thank you, and have fun skiing!

m

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

Hi All,

For information, Mr. Ton Bolk (from Bolk Fine Antique Firearms and Armor, the Netherlands) is 100% sure this katzbalger is actually 16th century). He strongly stands on it. :D

Interestingly, I sent today high resolution pics to Mr. Gilbert Putterie (& Yvon Leyssens) from Magazin Royal (Belgium), who sell Antique Swords, Firearms and Armor from the medieval and renaissance period (with 30 years experience in field; they also represent Czerny's auctioneers). He said the katzbalger is clearly 16th century (metal, patina, construction, etc.) :D

Hope this helps,

jm

Hi Jm,

I'm sad to say it does not help at all. :shrug:
We are talking about dealers, after all.
Just for fun: try returning your item to Mr. Bolk or selling it to whoever you choose ...

Anyway, I sent you what I collected concerning our topic. More to follow when the respective upcoming sales will be over.

Best,
Michael

Ok. Thanks Michael.

Would you like to purchase it (if you give me big money, it is yours ;)) ?

Hi Jean-Marc,

Sorry but I only collect earliest firerams and accouterments. ;)

Does this mean I finally managed to convince you?

Best,
Michael

Dear Michael,

Thanks so much for providing me with the pics on historismus katzbalgers that are for sale in an upcoming auction of Hermann Historica (I have had already seen them because they were previously emailed to me by Mr. Ton Bolk to show me how they were different from my katzbalger !). Frankly, I actually find them quite different -at various levels- from my katzbalger, as highlighted to Mr. Ton Bolk, such that the information is not convincing at all. I do think it is a 16th century katzbalger. I thank you because I appreciate your help and efforts on this thread. :)

My best,

jm

Hi Jean-Marc,

if you look at the Hermann-Historica katzbalger, the hilt is identical to yours.

The grip is the same (the tang-button is a separate small part and not belonging to any hilt) the s-shaped parrier guard is similar, even the decoration on this guard is the same. a pattern of 2 small incisions and 1 wide notch, only on the outside of the guard!!!which in itself hardly occurs
on katzbalger guards.

It is clear that Both of them have been produced in the same workshop.
The blades are probably authentic 16thc with subsequent/later engravings and subsequent damage. Actually it looks to me that somebody composed the katzbalgers from old and new parts.

If the katzbalger #2394 of Hermann-Historica is indeed historism or even later, then yours is most likely too. regardless of what various dealers on the basis of the photographs claim.
BTW have they recieved the complete information including the link of the Hermann-Historica katzbalger of sale of 64 lot 2394?
This could otherwise be retroactively mailed, I expect them to adjust the valuation on the basis of the above.

However it would probably be better if you can mail the 5mb pictures for valuation to Hermann-Historica direct.This certainly gives more clarity so why not do it ?


another track which can be successful, is to the trace the provenance.
From who's collection did it arise, where and when has this collector bought it.
Katzbalgers without verifiable provenance that have been recently popping up in the market are in advance suspicious.


your twohanders in this thread really are exceptionally beautiful so is the armor, but with this katzbalger I have serious concerns.

best,

Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

A Good Example of a Sumptuous 19th C. Katzbalger Copy
 

This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction.

It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece.
The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica.
With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date.

Best,
Michael

here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger.
the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century.
I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist.
For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312.


than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration.

best,

Hi Jasper,

Sorry for not sharing your opinion.

As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences.

Best,
Michael

of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later ;)
here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me

best,

I cannot see it.

m

?