Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer :D .
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum :cool: .
Fernando

Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando! :D :cool: :eek:

Michael

Katzbalger dimensions.

1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75)
In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from
approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used.

2. the "German Katzbalger".
Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3)
the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm.
(CF Seifert 1968 p461)
the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965
Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550).

RE: Blade thickness
there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection.
I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner.


Best regards

Cornelis tromp

!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis!
My best regards

Gonzalo

Actually, you don´t need to fence to be member of the forum. There are spaces for collectors and bladesmiths, also.
Regards

Gonzalo

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ? :)

I wonder what could be wrong in (such) wandering :confused:

This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course.

Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly.
While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later.

Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!! :)

All the best,

' Z '

More sources of illustration
 

Thank you so much, Jim 'Z':cool:,

Your comment has inspired me to post some more historic sources of illustration on early Landsknecht swords.

Michael

More.

That's it.

Thanks so much Michael!!! This information is really great....so far beyond the material I have at hand here.

I couldnt resist the Z :) .....one of my favorite scenes in "Zorro, the Gay Blade" was when the peasantry asked the mysterious masked swordsman who he was......he dashingly swishes a Z deftly into a tree trunk......and the crowd obliviously ask........'two???'.........in maddened frustration he bellows, no!!!! not two!!! eet ees a zee!!! for I am zorro!!! and stomps off. :)

Now I'm really off topic !!!! Back to the katzbalgers!!!! please keep it going guys OK?

All the best,
Jim

some more.

2

3

.

Stunning pieces, Cornelis!!! Thank you for sharing!

Are they yours?

Michael

More historic illustrations.

Michael

One last.

A Fine and Important Katzbalger from the Guard of the Emperor Charles V, ca. 1520
 

Photographed at the Museum of London in 1997.

Michael

Hi Michael,

extreme beautiful katzbalger, this one I discover for the first time now!
I think it has not been published yet.
thanks for posting this sword and of course also for posting all the pictures of Landsknechts(arms), it will be a great reference for me for future buying.

you should make a book by publishing this thread :)

btw. the tang does not show hammertraces ;)

best regards

Two very rare Nuremberg woodcuts
 

The first by Sebald Beham, the second by Erhard Schön, both 1530's.

Sorry for cutting them into two but that was the only way to save them from the web and retain them in reasonable size.

Michael

I think I can help a bit with that.

Great, Kisak,

Thank you!

Would you consider becoming my private computer tutor? ;)

Michael

From:

Flavius Vegetius Renatus, De re mlitari (On military equipment), 1512.

Note the curved quillons as a pre-stage to the figure 8 Katzbalger quillons which do not seem to have evolved before ca. 1510.

Michael

More from that imortant source.

Michael

Two more.

The Marriage Bowl of Peine, Lower Saxony, Dated 1534
 

This finely painted limewood bowl depicts secenes from the Hildesheim Feud of 1522. It is preserved at the Herzog-Anton-Ulrich-Museum in Brunswick.

Please note the representations of Landsknecht swords and early firearms.

Michael

.

Thanks for posting these, Cornelis!

What book are they taken from?

Michael

Hi Michael,

ARMA, historia visual de armas y armaduras isbn 978-84-205-5413-6

(not very special but very nice big pictures of beautiful arms.)

best regards

Fantastabulous, Cornelis!

That extremely fine Swabian or Swiss Landsknecht sword, ca. 1500, came of course from the world famous Sir Samuel Rush Meyrick Collection at Goodrich Court, Herefordshire, and is illustrated in the 1830 Skelton catalog. It was acquired by the Met and deaccessioned of again at Christie's, Nov. 22-23, 1960, because the then Met staff rated it a forgery - would you believe that! It was not even illustrated in Christie's sales catalog and went to the Tower relatively cheap.

It is only life that creates stories like that ... :rolleyes:

I am not sure wheter it is on display in the Tower or the Royal Armouriers Leeds today.

Btw, two fine pieces from the former Meyrick collection are in mine now: the four barrel Landsknecht mace, ca. 1540, posted here earlier, and an English Civil War matchlock musket, dated 1640.:) :cool:

Best wishes,
Michael

Hi Michael,

extreme beautiful sword. :)

I think the language is old Dutch! not a Swiss Dialect.

Also at present auctions (auction houses) I sometimes notice that forgeries are listed as genuine and vice versa.

best regards

More of that unique piece.

m

Late 15th century Landsknecht swords painted on the wooden case for a pair of gold scales, dated 1497, Germanic National Museum Nuremberg.

Michael

A few Landsknechts with Katzbalgers from Franz Helm: Buch von den probierten Künsten (book of the tested arts), South Western Germany, 1535, University Library Heidelberg.

Michael

Two Landsknecht swords, ca. 1510, from South German chronicles, the painting depicting a very rare trefoliate pommel in the Italian manner at the extreme right.

Michael

Great subjects simply don't die.
If I recall right, the sword in post #96 has been under of much debate in another forum and found to be an aged contemporary repro, even the maker has been identified.
I was sorting my photos and found this one, from the Invalides in Paris:

A Fine Swiss or South German Hand-And-a-Half Saber, ca. 1530
 

... in the Wallace Collection, London.

Best,
Michael

some messers
 

Not necessary Landsknecht nor Katzbalgers , but Johann von Schwarzenberg's
Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) dated 1507 shows some nice messers:

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/des...g/bambi155.jpg

Pic. 1 :Note the curved crossguard , "knifelike" hilt as well as curved blade/scabbard


http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/des...g/bambi167.jpg

Pic. 2 : shows the straight bladed variety of the messer ; note again the "knife hilt" ; the short crossguard is more typical of the earlier 15th century messers.

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/des...g/bambi162.jpg

Pic. 3 : Throwing some (presumably, judging from the apparel) "landsknecht" type for good measure. The man on the right from the devil figure carries what appears to be an "early katzbalger". As has already been mentioned in this thread the early 16th century "landsknecht swords" seem to have only a slightly curved crossguard. Of interest is also the longer "hand n a half" grip.


Cheers ,
Samuel