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-   -   Matchlock gun of Afghanistan? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24229)

corrado26 25th August 2018 04:29 PM

Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?
 
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A friend of mine sent me these fotos asking me to help with an identification. I think it could be a piece from Afghanistan but am not sure. Thanks for help.
corrado26

rickystl 25th August 2018 07:21 PM

Hi Corodo

Interesting matchlock. While it could have seen Afghan use, I believe it was likely made in India. The barrel is styled exactly like Torador matchlocks. Unlike most Toradors we see with the straight stocks, this one has the curve ala Afghan style. Could reflect a bit of South Indian influence (?) Also, the brass side plates are done in typical Torador fashion. It is a very plain, tribal style of gun. Love the rattan used for barrel bands. In any case, I feel confident it is originally of Indian origin. Lets see what others think.

Rick

mahratt 25th August 2018 08:01 PM

Hi Corodo

I agree with Rick. This is clearly a matchlock of Indian origin. Theoretically, this matchlock could be used in Afghanistan. Curve reminds me not Afghan style, but rather Sind style.

Dima

BANDOOK 26th August 2018 10:35 AM

Greetings Corodo
The barrel is definitely from India and its Hindi/Marwari script[spoken in Rajasthan],clearly says Jaipur with date,picture of script not clear ,do send a good image and I can translate it for you
regards
Rajesh

corrado26 26th August 2018 12:52 PM

Thanks a lot at all for their answers. Unfortunately I have no other pictures to send, but my friend is very happy with the result of your answers. Thanks a lot once more
corrado26

ariel 26th August 2018 01:26 PM

I am a bit confused. Binding is the last thing put on something during the final assembly, and rattan is very prone to natural destruction. Its use implies its abundance for easy replacement.
AFAIK, rattan is endemic to hot wet areas : SE Asia from Burma and Sri Lanka to Malaysia , Indonesia etc. It is a jungle plant.
Does it grow in Afghanistan or NW India with their largely desert-y climate? I checked Wiki “ rattan” and could not find it being mentioned there. In fact, the only time Afghanistan was mentioned as an importer of rattan from Thailand.
Do we know of widespread use of rattan in weaponry or other products in those areas?
Just wondering...

BANDOOK 27th August 2018 10:39 AM

hi Ariel
For your kind information there is plenty of rattan [variety of jungle grass\cane}in the indian subcontinent,usually for making colonial style furniture, and household impliments,Lot of Naga and Assam weapons have rattan used ,could be easily traded with neigbouring countrys .
regards
Rajesh

ariel 27th August 2018 11:55 AM

True enough. But this is East India where rattan is abundant, and I was asking about NW India + Afghanistan.
Any grassy materiel, rattan included, must be quite perishable , especially when it is attached to hot rifle barrels. This would require easy access to cheap replacements. Owners of primitive village -made guns were unlikely to buy imported materials time and time again. They would go for something simple and resilient: metal wire or brackets.

This is why the idea of Rickystl about South India might have merit. We see a lot of rattan on SEA weapons. As a matter of fact, their mere presence allowed SEA experts among us immediately attribute them to SEA, Indonesia, Philippines etc.

Do you have documented Afghani or Sindhi examples of guns with rattan bindings?

fernando 27th August 2018 12:38 PM

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Although not so recurrent, Toradars exist that may be seen with rattan binding. What i find more intriguing than this raw material appearing in areas out of its natural environment, is that (some) gun smiths bind their barrels with such perishable stuff, instead of the massively used metallic bands, which can be saved from any disposables, like old wire or tin recipients.
Could it be aesthetics ?

(Courtesy Ambrose Antiques)

.

ariel 27th August 2018 01:18 PM

Toradars were spread all over India, from the Mughal domain to Mysore.
Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

rickystl 27th August 2018 01:48 PM

I have never seen rattan used on an gun of Afghan origin. But I have seen Toradors with silver, brass, wire, and even leather used for barrel bands.

Rick

fernando 27th August 2018 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
...Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

Not with real authority; other that it is said to have a Farsi maker’s signature on the breech top of its wootz barrel, fastened with rattan bands.
Looks like Stone places Toradars more towards Central and Norther India :o .

ariel 27th August 2018 06:01 PM

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That's the rub....

Barrels were imported and transported, and the attribution of the finished product ( the gun in toto) is often determined by its stock/butt.
The Corrado's gun is not of a classical Afghani or Sindhi fashion.
On the other hand, here is one from Ashoka Art gallery, defined as South Indian. Its stock looks more like Corrado's. And yet another one from the same collection, also attributed to South India, and even with a rattan binding.
Rickystl and Fernando: thanks for your input, it provides quite a lot of food for thought.

mahratt 27th August 2018 06:17 PM

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With all due respect to Stefan, there is no complete certainty that this type of matchlock is from South India. But even if he is from South India, this is not so important. In any case, Henry Moser bought such a matchlock in Turkestan. That is, in Afghanistan this type of gun could also be found.

ariel 28th August 2018 04:01 AM

Moser put all these guns into the section of Afghani weapons.
Taking into account that he never set foot in Afghanistan and that # 491 ( per Moser from Turkestan) is a classical example from Sindh, his attributions should be taken with a grain of salt.


Most importantly, Rickystl attested to the fact that he had never encountered Afghani gun with rattan binding; thus, his hint at the South Indian origin of the Corrado’s example acquires additional weight.

mahratt 28th August 2018 06:15 AM

For those who do not understand the first time, I will explain more popular. :) Moser was not in Afghanistan. But Moser was in Turkestan, where he bought these matchlocks. In those days, there were no aircraft and a matchlock from Sind and from India could only get to Turkestan through Afghanistan. It's strange to think that such matchlocks were taken from India specifically to sell to Turkestan (although it might be somehow miraculously learned that Moser travels through Turkestan and buys weapons there? :D). Much more logical another explanation. These matchlocks (both from Sind and from India) were used in Afghanistan and, thanks to trade caravans, were also brought to Turkestan.

But, of course, if we are talking about a matchlock corrado26, then we can only talk about the theoretical possibility that it could be used in Afghanistan.

fernando 28th August 2018 10:46 AM

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Going back to the rattan problematic and within my deep limitations in the subject, i don't see that its use in barrel binding could exclusively determine the area where the gun was mounted. Rattan is used all over; such stuff would have and still forms a resource of trade. Naturally its potential use will be more abundant close from its origin but its spread is undeniable. Its bulk purpose being wicker work, Afghanis also have their share. Its local popular use extends to baskets used to carry opium for street sale and its necessary scales.

I see a Toradar labeled as from North India (Hindi written label and all) with the barrel attached to the stock with both wire and rattan capucines. So we have a 'mixed' approach here.

On the other hand, we have a Jezail in the Imperial war museum GB, with the following description:

"Matchlock jezail musket & ramrod. Facetted barrel, slightly belled at muzzle, and strengthened breech; integral sights, two rattan barrel bindings, lock with side mounted match holder, stock with applied ivory and brass decoration."

Pity no pictures available.


.

ariel 28th August 2018 06:29 PM

Fernando,
Thanks for your comments.

Now things become bit more clear and we can provide a more informed answer to Corrado26 re. his friend's Indian gun.

On the one hand we see a gun often encountered in South India with rattan bindings that are also abundant there..

On the other hand such stock pattern might have been potentially seen in Afghanistan ( but the evidence is extremely weak) and rattan bindings were seen on a single specimen ( jezail).

On the preponderance of evidence I would vote for the first possibility.

Thanks to all of you for a lesson.

mahratt 28th August 2018 07:16 PM

Many thanks to Ariel for the fact that he once again repeated everything that had already been said before. Always need someone who will sum up.

ariel 28th August 2018 07:33 PM

Glad to be of service and help you to comprehend the topic.

mahratt 28th August 2018 07:56 PM

Thanks again! To be frank, I understood the topic a little earlier. This can be seen from the third message in this thread. But I hope helped you to learn new things.

ariel 29th August 2018 03:14 AM

I think you missed the point in that message : preponderance of evidence is in favor of South Indian origin, but not ,- as you suggested,- Afghani and most certainly not Sindhi. Moser's example #491 is from Sindh although he called it Afghani.

Where Corrado's gun " could have been used" is irrelevant: our family drives Toyotas, and Suzuki. All were bought in the US, but they are not American cars: they are Japanese. Elephant in a Moscow Zoo is still Indian. Weapons traveled along and across the entire Indian subcontinent without hindrance. Hope it makes the point clear, does it?

mahratt 29th August 2018 04:18 AM

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I apologize, but you very inattentively read the message. I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Hi Corodo
I agree with Rick. This is clearly a matchlock of Indian origin. Theoretically, this matchlock could be used in Afghanistan. Curve reminds me not Afghan style, but rather Sind style.
Dima


I will be very grateful if you tell me in what message I assumed that this matchlock is of Afghan originаl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I think you missed the point: preponderance of evidence is in favor of South Indian origin, but not ,- as you suggested,- Afghani and most certainly not Sindhi.



So which of us did not understand the essence? I wrote in the third message that this is an Indian matchlock that could be in Afghanistan. You wrote the same thing at the very end of topic, when this everything was already clear to all the participants :)

I see that you have not completely understood the topic, since you are writing again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Moser's example #491 is from Sindh although he called it Afghani.


Afghanistan is a multinational country. The well-known fact that in the south of Afghanistan in the 19th century lived (and lives now) Balochi tribe (which the British in the 19th century were called Afghans). Balochi actively used Sind-type matchlocks (there are many evidences to this - for example, look at the image). It is strange to assume that such mathlocks from Sind were unable to enter the more northern regions of Afghanistan.
Moreover, the movement of matchlocks from Sind throughout the territory of Afghanistan is proved by the fact that Henry Moser bought such a this matchlock in Turkestan. And we have already found out that the rifle was brought to Turkestan not by plane, bypassing Afghanistan. I hope now you understand why Moser called the matchlock from Sind - Afghan matchlock. Not because it was made in Afghanistan, but because it was used in Afghanistan

rickystl 29th August 2018 02:07 PM

Hey !! Neat drawing. I'll save this in my library. Thanks.

Rick

mahratt 29th August 2018 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hey !! Neat drawing. I'll save this in my library. Thanks.

Rick


Rick, if it's interesting, I can place a photo of Balochs with Sind-type rifles in the subject as well. By the way, the image that I laid out is 1879.

corrado26 29th August 2018 02:27 PM

It was very interesting to follow the discussion caused by my question and I have to thank all participants who entered their contributions.
corrado26

bhushan_lawate 30th August 2018 11:15 AM

Clearly of Indian origin. it has an inventory no. "188???" and Jaipur along with the name of the district "Dhamwa???"

a couple of clearer snaps will be helpful..:)

rickystl 30th August 2018 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Rick, if it's interesting, I can place a photo of Balochs with Sind-type rifles in the subject as well. By the way, the image that I laid out is 1879.

Thank you very much. That would be great.

Rick

mahratt 30th August 2018 02:52 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Thank you very much. That would be great.

Rick


No problem :)

Dima

ariel 30th August 2018 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhushan_lawate
Clearly of Indian origin. it has an inventory no. "188???" and Jaipur along with the name of the district "Dhamwa???"

a couple of clearer snaps will be helpful..:)


Of course. There is no doubt it is from India: the inscription is indisputable.
The question is , whence in India?
Obviously, it is not Sindhi.
Afghanistan has very weak support: only one known jezail with rattan bindings.
Calling it Afghani because it was bought nearby is amusing: naan and samosas bought in the US remain purely Indian food. We are discussing here ethnic origins of weapons, not their trade routes. That is IMHO, the root of the confusion.

Since you are located in India and obviously interested in weapons, could you pitch in?
My sources are limited: two guns from Ashoka Arts and Egerton’s example #139 show similar stocks from South India.
Nothing in the collections from Leeds and Mysore Palace.
But there are at least 10 of those ( obviously much more lavish) in the Sandringham collection and those are firmly attributed to Indore ( Central India).


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