Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   European Armoury (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Need help with blade mark (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27996)

ariel 22nd June 2022 02:31 AM

Need help with blade mark
 
1 Attachment(s)
That's all I have, sorry.

Anybody knows where from and how old?

Thanks.
Ariel

Jim McDougall 22nd June 2022 03:38 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 272865)
That's all I have, sorry.

Anybody knows where from and how old?

Thanks.
Ariel

Looks like a blade from a 'nimcha' mid 19th+ with this assembly of 'cosmological' theme resembling the Schimmelbusch style marking. This is typically a comet with this grouping of stars, but a moon could be variant. It seems merchants/armorers in trade entrepots would add these kinds of markings imitating various European marks from blades.

I think Bezdek has examples of these markings for Schimmelbusch, dont have access at the moment.

These two images are of the kinds of markings placed on these hanger or saber blades typically seen on nimcha type swords of mid 19th into early 20th c. The one with crescent moon resembling the Hausa 'dukari' but with crosses of the type seen on some 'koummya' blades from Moroccan regions.

Jerseyman 23rd June 2022 10:59 PM

Talwar with similar mark
 
1 Attachment(s)
I don't have any information I'm afraid, but I do have an archive picture of one of my talwars to hand. No stats to share unfortunately. I thought the hilt style might help with assessing time and place.

Jim McDougall 27th June 2022 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman (Post 272919)
I don't have any information I'm afraid, but I do have an archive picture of one of my talwars to hand. No stats to share unfortunately. I thought the hilt style might help with assessing time and place.

Nice example of northwestern India talwar, probably Rajasthan or Sind, as per the decorative element center of cross guard, the swan neck knuckle guard from Rajasthan areas. It resembles the type seen in references on Talpurs of Baluchistan, but these were widely diffused so hard to be specific. Likely late 18th early 19th.

Jerseyman 28th June 2022 11:55 AM

I suppose the question is whether we think this is a trade blade or a local blade. I'm inclined toward saying it's a local blade because of the delamination on the blade edge, but happy to be proved wrong. If it's a trade blade then I guess it's a European mark, but I'm disposed to think it's an Indian armourer's mark.

Jim McDougall 29th June 2022 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman (Post 273023)
I suppose the question is whether we think this is a trade blade or a local blade. I'm inclined toward saying it's a local blade because of the delamination on the blade edge, but happy to be proved wrong. If it's a trade blade then I guess it's a European mark, but I'm disposed to think it's an Indian armourer's mark.

Its quite possible its a trade blade, as these were prevalent through the Arab/Indian trade entrepots. Indian armorers as far as I have known did not use makers marks like in Europe but did use various imitations of some European markings, most prevalent of course being the 'Genoan' sickle marks.

It appears this is a variation or copy of the marks used by Schimmelbusch in Solingen, and these were in the 19th c.

TVV 30th June 2022 06:23 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Here are a couple of swords with similar mark, in this case nimchas from Eastern Africa. I also recall seeing this mark on saifs from Southern Yemen, but these are just outside of my main area of interest, so unfortunately do not have photos. It is possible that these blades were made in India or somewhere around the Arabian Sea as this mark seems to be found exclusively on blades from that region.

Jerseyman 23rd August 2022 09:49 PM

2 Attachment(s)
A similar mark on a shamshir that recently went through the auction process.

Jim McDougall 27th August 2022 09:18 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman (Post 274443)
A similar mark on a shamshir that recently went through the auction process.

This is a Yemeni sa'if actually so technically not a shamshir, but these are simply descriptive terms as used colloquially in the arms community. It appears to be a modern hilting using much older blade, likely Solingen. This cosmological grouping as placed on the blade seems to be a well used mark by local armorers in these regions in early to mid 19th c. on these older well circulated blades.
It has been noted in a number of cases concerning swords from these areas in Arabia that considerable numbers of vintage blades were acquired from Bedouin sources in trading, many being mounted in these more modern but traditional style hilts.

It seems that the crescent and stars were used on the flag of Muhammed Ali, Ottoman ruler of Egypt c.1820, and these crescent and stars configurations were used on blades used from the Maghreb to other Ottoman regions extending of course to Yemen through the century. I have seen crosses (of the Greek type) used along with the crescent as well and it seems in similar placement and configuration, so I am wondering if perhaps this might be an Ottoman arsenal type marking, or that of a particular entrepot in this Ottoman sphere.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.