Not bad Michel, not bad at all. The first keris that I made was made before I ever took instruction from Pak Parman, and its not as good as yours.

The sulphur and salt will not stain a blade, it will only reveal topographic variation in the material. There is a non-arsenic etch that will give a blade some colour, which is sulphur and rice water. I used this a few times more than 50 years ago, but never on a new blade, only on old ones, and it worked more or less OK. I mixed the stuff to a paste and applied it to the blade, then wrapped the blade in plastic sandwich wrap. It took about a week to work.

Something that collectors of both keris and conventional knives do not appreciate or understand is that the work involved in making a good quality small blade is at least as great, possibly greater, than the work involved in making a good quality normal sized blade, and the skill level required is definitely greater. Very good quality small keris blades are frequently more expensive than very good quality normal size blades, and certainly much more scarce, but try selling them on a western market.

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier :D The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish) :D

nice job
 

Hi Michel,
nice small keris you have there. as you mention before, the harder part of keris making is making the detail(recikan) of the keris it self. In making the greneng we often use a very small saw similar to a saw we use on playwood. it is a very time concuming in making the greneng couse the sawing it self need high concentration and skill...

the other harder part is making the sogokan. what did you use for making the sogokan? a small grinder is an option, but it very risky . we some time use a special steel chisel for the sogokan and pijitan work.

About the mendak, we still can find a very small mendak which fit for a patrem here in Jakarta. Not always available but we still can find it.
I recon your keris handle is a little bit larger for the keris. but the warangka is a very nice job...Love your warangka...very nive job, congratulation on your patrem. Let us know if you dicide to make another keris.

Good day,
FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes, sulfur and salt do not stain properly a blade, the mixture prepared as you explained, using only sulfur and rice water, seems to eat away the weaker metal in my case the iron. the nickel resisting better appears in surface and gives these topographical irregularities. I think the salt is only accelerating the process (it took 24 hours only). I have not utilized rice water, only plain water, and am just wondering why rice water. Nik Rashidin Nick Hussein, who gave me the recipe, told me "rice water" also. I think there is a chemist in the forum, may be he could explain.
I have utilized the recipe on an old blade which was in my eyes completely pamorless with a decent result. I do not know how Henk (of the forum) saw that that blade was with pamor and encourage me to stain it.

Hi Lemythesmith
Thank you also for appreciating my efforts but I am a long way from the quality of your work. My peksi is 4.5 mm in diameter and the hulu is 12 mm diameter at its base. But I do not think that I would be able to adapt a mendak on the base of rought out coper base cup. I am no jeweler and lack that sort of experience and tools.

Hi Ferrylaki,
Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions : my ricikan were all done with files, as the greneng. I do not use a small grinder . As you say: it is too risky. A mistake is so easily done and often cannot be corrected.
You are right, my handle is a bit too big for the size of the keris. And it is the second one. My initial one was even larger and I had to redo it homothetically smaller. I think that my reference, also a patrem, has also a too large handle.
The answer to that is to do a third handle, smaller !
Thank you for suggesting to look in Jakarta for a smaller mendak. Mine is 6mm internal diameter and 15 mm external diameter and my hulu 12 mm. Now if I remake a correct sized handle, I will probably loose an other millimeter or two on the exterior diameter of the base of the hulu, so about 10 mm. Do you really think one can find such a small mendak ? If yes, it can be mailed in an envelop, if I cannot come and fetch it in Jakarta !
I will certainly make other krisses, but slowly ! An other day, I will show you my kris Panjang. An other size !
Thanks to all of you for your advices
Michel

Michel,

A very fine keris you made there.

But i also like the scabbard you made. Can you tell me how you made the tip and what material did you use to make the tip?

Tip of the scabbard
 

Hi Henk,
Thank you for the compliment. The tip is made of vegetable ivory as they call it. In fact it is tagua nut. A nut coming from a palm tree growing in South America. Extremely hard nuts, very similar to ivory hardness that can be cut and filed just as ivory. The nuts are not as large as ivory ! so the pieces you can cut and make with Tagua nuts are small (5 to 8 cm)
I had it come from South America.
Regards
Michel

I'm planning to buy a grinder for my keris project, but as Alan mention before about grinder fact, I guess a cold steel chisel would be just fine. spending more hours for the ricikan is the best way to make keris just like the old times.

people nowdays use grinder to shape the " odo odo" and the " gigir sapi"
and the result is more damage for biginers .
"It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade" as Alan said...than I must practice my patience first before I start working on my sogokan...couse if dont have patience you could destroy an entirely job on the ricikan. I found "no way back" on the ricikan job.

As an information Michel. I'm also trying a small mendak for my keris, it's not a patrem but its smaller than a normal keris...hope a manage to find two or three so I can offfer my spare for you... good day every body...

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

condong leleh
 

Hi Alan,
the angel your talking about, the condong leleh.
I have a feeling that my saton has too much angel. this is a kelengan keris.
tilam sari would be great. thanks

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

The problem at the moment is I cant find any besalen to adjust the angel.
so the next project must be changed to this keris. This keris has already took its shape. Most of the shaping worked by my brother, and a grinder was involved. We're now trying not to use grinder no more. files and hecksaw is an option.
I'll post another pictures for further progress on this keris. :)
hope we can make a healthy shape for this one. this is a kelengan ( pamor less keris )
the gonjo may be too small ... but it already took shape.I cant go back with the gonjo, so its done. filing and sharpening would be our next time consuming job.

FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

Ferry, this blade needs to be refined by using scrapers. There is no more work for a hacksaw here, and the rough shaping has already been done, so there is limited work for a file. What you need now is to use scrapers to do the kruwingan and refine all the contours.

There are plenty of smiths in and around Solo. Just take the forging back there and alter the angle.Make sure you have your blak with you.

Alan, can you discribe what a scraper looks like?
does sandpaper could become a scraper?
do you have a picture of scraper?
sorry for my lack of knowledge...

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta

Ferry, if you go into a hardware store, or motor mechanics supply store and ask for a "skrap", they will show you a scraper that mechanics use to fit engine bearings. This is the large, commercially produced scraper you can see in the photos. This is a useful size to work the length of the blade and to rough out the kruwingan.

The other smaller scrapers have been made from three corner files. You can buy second hand ones from the junk markets. You just use a grinder to grind a radius onto the end of the file, and then sharpen it on a whetstone.

The funny looking bent tools are riffle files. You need these for refining the various contours. These files here are Dick files from Germany, which probably cost a king's ransom these days---I haven't bought any for maybe 10 years or more and the last one I bought cost me more than $50. However, you can buy Chinese ones in Indonesia. They're not as good, they do not last as long, but they can do the job, and they are much, much cheaper.

The chisels and gouges are made from old files and other tools, and a few are made from 01 tool steel. You use these to begin the shape of a feature and to remove big quantities of metal. They are not used for fine work.

The other tools I have use to make keris, and that are not shown here are normal small jewellers files, a 6" file, and big heavy 15" file, a hacksaw, and a small hammer. The hacksaw and big file are only used in the initial shaping stage.

Using only these tools, this is what can be produced:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

tools
 

wow, so many tools...
I really should complete my tools.
people these days depend on a grinder and replace the old method of keris making.
I'll try to find those tools from now on.
thank you very much for these helpfull pictures Alan.
I really appreciate your kindness.

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta

Ferry, that's only a few of my tools, I just picked up a handful out of the drawer to use as examples, I've probably got about 20 various scrapers, about three times as many rifflers I've shown, more of everything. In fact you need a lot, because things get blunt, and if you're constantly stopping to sharpen tools it slows things down too much. When Pak Parman passed on, one of the things he left me was his tools. I've never used them, so they are just as he had them on the last day he worked. I'll post a pic of these tools one day when I get around to it.

Tools are so universal. Here are a few of mine. I only use the wood handled scorpa tools when cutting detail {textures like animal fur} back into metal when the casting sprue has been removed or if the cast has not quite taken fine detail in places.

I figure out there's still a very long way to gather those tools.
jewellers saw, skraper, files, wheatstone, hachsaw atc atc...
wow ... so many of them, thanks for sharing all these knowledge with me.
.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

Thank you, Alan!
 

Loved the finished product!

Now, I need lessons!

Amazing work...how long have you been smithing Graham? I saw over on BB that you're from Wigan...I'm from Bury....would love to see some of your work in person, if possible.

amazing work, Graham, amd very interesting discussion!

"a lot of people want it, but who is prepared to pay the price?" Very true, even in my case I'm ashamed to say. Having had talks with Graham a few months back regarding a commission, then realizing the cost was staggering to me at first. Reading more into this subject, however, leads me to believe it is worth such a price.

This has also sparked more interest my desire of learning the process in which a Keris is made. I've been working/volunteering with a few blacksmiths, as well as professional knifemakers in order to gain a level of familiarity with the tools of the trade and plan (in the very very distant future when I'm comfortable with my skills) to find somewhere in Indonesia, much like Alan has, to further my skills by learning how to make keris (as well as the cultural traditions behind it). Perhaps also Malaysia, where their tradition of Keris Sundang making is apparantly still alive (although not thriving unfortunately). Of course, I would see this also as an academic endeavor (as opposed to attempting to make a living out of it) but with a slightly different purpose.

My eventual study will involve the development of the Moro style kris and how its journey from Java to Mindanao has affected its design. Particularly its early incarnations from the 18th century when the Kris Sundang from the Sulu Sultanate still exhibited the meticulous level of craftsmanship of its javanese predecessor. Later designs, I find, were more crude in terms of sculpting and chiseling of the blade's sor-soran area while its focus shifted onto crafting a broader, more hefty slashing-battle oriented blade. I always found it a shame that the balance between the two was never maintained as time had passed.

I think that to gain a more profound understanding of the Moro Kris that my ancestors have so frequently used in history, it is imperative for me to gain an acceptable in-depth knowledge on (not only the fabrication process, but the traditions behind) its predecessor, the Javanese Keris. Reading posts in this forum and gaining knowledge from textbooks regarding the Javanese Keris has further enriched my appreciation for the it as the profound cultural artwork it is, as opposed to just as the blueprint for another culture's weapon as I had once percieved it. It (The keris) is not, as I once thought, just a chapter of a book to flip through to get to the end -- it is quite a meaty story in and of itself!

Alan, I may send you a Private Message soon regarding Keris making appreticeship as I am very much interested.

I am astonished in front of the skill of British smiths. My compliments !
On the other hand I made a reflection: if a good smith can forge a kris of such a level, what is left of the charming mistery of an Eastern weapon whose origins date back hundreds of years and the asimmetric form of which still is an unresolved question. It is more or less as if somebody could forge a sword with the same characteristics of a sword made by the great Japanese masters like Masamune or Yoshihiro. If so only antique or historically important specimen would mantain a certain "spiritual" value.

I would like now to tell what happened to me some ten years ago, in Liverpool.
I visited the shop of an antique arms dealer, and I told him that I used to collect kris. At this point he showed me a kris blade, made by a friend of him, and I almost did not believe this story. The kris was Bali style, and if I well remember without the ganja (too difficult, maybe ? Or the smith did not have interest in completing his work, having already demonstrated his skill ?)
Unfortunately I did not investigate any more and I had no more opportunity to go to Liverpool. :(

I posted a comment on this subject, but my text went another part, I don't know where :(

Please apologize,all is OK :o

Hi Gio, I'm glad you like my work!! The shop you visited in Liverpool would have been my friend's shop-the keris you handled was one I made many years ago in a mixture of styles. I think it did have a gongo but in my ignorance I soldered it to the blade, the keris was never finished before my friend took it in part exchange for a nice gendaito by Ichihara Nagamitsu. Small world huh? :D

P.S I'm much better at making Japanese blades than I am at making keris :p

Hi Lemmy,
Yes, small world !
Now I would like to see one of your swords. Could you post a photo ?
Are you a professional smith (or, better, artist) or only a hobbist ?
Pleased having met you here. :)

If you mean one of his Japanese swords i am afraid that this forum is not the place for that. Maybe you could exchange emails or perhaps Lemmy has a website you could visit. :)

Hi David,
OK, you are right.

Hi! Graham.,

Congratulations for the work, I’m very impressed.
I know that it might be of less interest for the steel men, but can you post closer pics of the handle you carved.
I’d love also to know how was your process of carving the ivory, the kind of ivory you chose etc,

best regards Cedric

Hi Cedric, the ivory is antique elephant that I managed to get hold of long before the current ban. I tend to carve with a dremel with small burr cutters to "rough out" then refine and carve smaller detail with a sghian dubh I made from a scrap of damascus. Here's the photo of the hilt.

Regards, Graham.

Hi marvelous Graham...
I really like your workmanship. Beautiful "durga hilt"... And I hope these pictures below may inspire your next work. Three styles of old "durga hilts" -- two Cirebon style and one Balinese style...

GANJAWULUNG