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-   -   Rare Dayak Daggers - Sadop and Dohong (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3526)

VVV 8th November 2006 05:04 PM

Rare Dayak Daggers - Sadop and Dohong
 
3 Attachment(s)
I can't find that these Dayak daggers has been discussed on the forum before?
On the Sadop there isn't much information in the litterature.

The Dohong is a ritual dagger that's mostly used in funeral ceremonies.
There are a lot of rumours about it, both because it's quite rare and because it has been mostly for ceremonial pusaka "magic" use as long as outsiders has visited the inner Dayak tribes.

I have gathered what I have found about them at this page and hope that maybe someone could share some additional info and comments?

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_album.php

Michael

VANDOO 8th November 2006 07:59 PM

VERY INTERESTING AND BEAUTIFUL DAGGERS :D
THE SHAPE, CARVING AND DESIGNS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DAYAK TRIBES IN BORNEO. THE MASK BEING THE CLOSEST TO A TYPICAL DAYAK STYLE. THE ONE WITH A TRIANGULAR BLADE AND USE AT FUNERALS ALSO MAKES ONE WONDER IF THERE IS SOMEHOW AN ASSOCIATION WITH THE PHURBA. I WOULD AGREE THAT THE MANDAU AND ITS COUSINS WERE THE ORIGINAL FORMS OF TOOL/WEAPONS BEFORE THIS TYPE OF DAGGER WAS BROUGHT IN FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. PERHAPS THE FORM WAS DEVELOPED FROM SOME RELIGOUS VISITORS AND THE FORM, USES AND BELIEFS INCORPORATED INTO THE TRIBAL SYSTEM.
ITS ALWAYS COOL TO SEE SOMETHING NEW :cool: THANKS FOR SHAREING

VVV 9th November 2006 11:09 AM

Thanks Vandoo,

Interesting observation.
From what I understand there is a relationship with the Phurba in that the Dohong was used more for shamanistic rituals than as a tool.
I am not sure of the use of the Sadop?
Unfortunately I never saw either of them in use when I was in East Kalimantan 17 years ago. Even if I at one village was lucky to time the first night of a shamanistic rite when I and my guide slept over in a longhouse.
Probably because they are limited to tribes further south?

On the Mandau I am not that confident that they were the original weapons of the Dayak tribes.
Most probably spears and daggers were used before the Mandau?
In the really old myths, like the ones I have quoted from Schärer, spears and daggers are mentioned. But not the Mandau or any other kind of swords.

Michael


Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
VERY INTERESTING AND BEAUTIFUL DAGGERS :D
THE SHAPE, CARVING AND DESIGNS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DAYAK TRIBES IN BORNEO. THE MASK BEING THE CLOSEST TO A TYPICAL DAYAK STYLE. THE ONE WITH A TRIANGULAR BLADE AND USE AT FUNERALS ALSO MAKES ONE WONDER IF THERE IS SOMEHOW AN ASSOCIATION WITH THE PHURBA. I WOULD AGREE THAT THE MANDAU AND ITS COUSINS WERE THE ORIGINAL FORMS OF TOOL/WEAPONS BEFORE THIS TYPE OF DAGGER WAS BROUGHT IN FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. PERHAPS THE FORM WAS DEVELOPED FROM SOME RELIGOUS VISITORS AND THE FORM, USES AND BELIEFS INCORPORATED INTO THE TRIBAL SYSTEM.
ITS ALWAYS COOL TO SEE SOMETHING NEW :cool: THANKS FOR SHAREING

VANDOO 9th November 2006 03:55 PM

I AGREE THAT THE DAYAKS PROBABLY USED WOOD, BONE AND STONE TOOLS AND WEAPONS IN THE EARLY TIMES. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THERE ARE ANY ARTEFACTS FROM THAT TIME SURVIVING IN THE ARCHEOLOGICAL COLLECTIONS. THE BLOWGUN WAS PROBALY IN USE FROM EARLY TIMES ALSO THE OLD DAYAK SHIELDS I HAVE SEEN ARE LIGHT AND MANEUVERABLE AND WOULD BE GOOD FOR BLOCKING BLOWGUN DARTS BUT I WOULD THINK COULD BE EASILY SPLIT WITH A MANDAU OR SPEAR. I HAVE WONDERED WHAT PART THEY ACTUALLY PLAYED IN WARFARE OR IF THEY WERE LEFT AT HOME AND PLAYED A MORE CEREMONIAL ROLE AND WERE DECORATED TO SHOW A WARRIORS STORY AND PROWNESS?

THE MANDAU PROBABLY ARRIVED IN THE FORM OF A LARGE JUNGLE KNIFE FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE AND BECAME A HOT TRADE ITEM AS KNIVES AND AXES HAVE ALWAYS DONE IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD THRU OUT HISTORY. YOU WOULD BE TOP DOG IN THE TRIBE IF YOU HAD THE FIRST STEEL BLADED TOOL/WEAPON AND EVERYONE WOULD WANT ONE. THE TRIBAL DECORATIONS, TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WOULD HAVE DEVELOPED OVER TIME. FOR SOME REASON I SUSPECT THE TWO DAGGERS YOU POSTED ARRIVED LATER THAN THE LARGER JUNGLE CHOPPING PREDECESSOR OF THE MANDAU AND ITS KIN. I THINK THE PISO PODANG ALSO ARRIVED IN BORNEO LATER. THE LATOK I HAVE NO GUESSES :confused:

VVV 9th November 2006 05:52 PM

On the shields their purpose was for the opponents Mandau to get stuck in the wood.

Borneo has had documented contact with India as well as China for at least 1.500 years. They also of course had contact with f.i. Java so Keris and daggers has been around for quite some time.
In the 15th-16th C the Portugese arrived as the first Europeans to Brunei. That's the reason it's called Borneo (Burunei became Bruneo that became Borneo).
The, probably Portugese inspired, NW Borneo war sword Pedang (resembles the Batak Piso Podang) has probably been used for several centuries. First with imported Portugese blades and later locally produced in Brunei.

The oldest Borneo swords I have seen IRL are for some reason both Parang Pedang.
Ben has one and I have one, both estimated to the end of 18th C. Btw Parang Pedang is not the same sword as the Pedang.

According to Shelford f.i. the Jimpul was first used in the late 19th C by the Iban. Their original sword was the Niabor and the Langgai Tinggang.

Maybe Ben can share some additional info on when different swords showed up on Borneo?

Michael

Dajak 9th November 2006 08:00 PM

There are some drawings that show s Dajaks with blowgun and parang-ilang but never see one with Dohun or daggers that is in my opinion not so old on Borneo as the sword the dajaks Used
The daggers have Arabic moslim influence .

the name Maleiers was used by the dutch people for moslim people Arabic boeginezen (that is why we see a lot off krissen from them on Borneo) and Dayaks that became moslim that they see on Borneo in the first part off the 16 cnt
Maleiers where at the cost in mid 13 century not deep inside off Borneo in this time Broenei came in historie
and second some at Djohor te soekadama hindoe javanees people setteld on the Kapoeas (that is to explain why javanees influence swords has been found by Nieuwenhuis

The Dutch Compagnie people had their first contract between The Netherlands and the Sultan off Sambas in 1609.

So Sadap is in my opinnion no dayak weapon but an borneo weapon

There is an mandau form that never been on the forum I have to ask the ex owner if I may show the pics off this one

Other wise I picture the drawing

Ben

VVV 9th November 2006 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
So Sadap is in my opinnion no dayak weapon but an borneo weapon

There is an mandau form that never been on the forum I have to ask the ex owner if I may show the pics off this one


On the Sadop the reason I have classified it as a Dayak weapon is because of Juynboll. In the Leiden catalogues, when they are attributed to a group, they all are attributed to different Dayak tribes.
I do agree however, as I have written in the description text, that they resemble an Arabic Jambiah, but straight instead of curved.
But I haven't seen any triangular dagger like that anywhere else in the Malay archipelago?
I also noticed just now that f.i. Sadop 761/69 is decribed as a Dayak women's dagger.
Maybe that's why you don't see them on the old pictures of Dayak warriors?
The same is true for the Dohong, you only see the blades mounted on spears.
Both daggers however are found on old drawings of Dayak weapons. Like on illustration 3219/76 at Tropen.
If both of them are ritual daggers probably there wouldn't be any pictures of them in use?
I have f.i. never seen a picture of a Keris Sajen or Majapahit in actual use?

I hope that the Mandau you are referring to is what I guess it is. :)

Michael

Dajak 10th November 2006 12:01 AM

Triangel dagger we find as spear point in Indonesia the dohun is in the junboll off leiden not classified as an weapon

and about that mandau you are right you have the pic about the drawing
I don t now if I did show you the pics about it.

That is in the book De Bewooners der Vreemde Werelddeelen door
Dr H. Blink

kris madjapahit like the one I have was found under an stupa off the burubodur it has been placed there in the early 900 or 1000 so must be older than the majapahit time
This was used as an amulet and not an ritual weapon


regards Ben

VVV 10th November 2006 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Triangel dagger we find as spear point in Indonesia the dohun is in the junboll off leiden not classified as an weapon ....
kris madjapahit ... was used as an amulet and not an ritual weapon


It's correct that the Dohong is not listed as a weapon in Juynboll.
But the Sadop is.
I haven't seen any Javanese, or Sumatran, spear heads shaped as a Sadop blade (compact triangular with straight edges)?
And there is no Metuk on the Sadop [Thanks Alan M for teaching me this important spear detail ;)]?

On the Keris Majapahit there is a lot of discussion on its original use before it was used as an amulet only.
Maybe we should save that for another thread in the Keris forum?

Just in case I will also mail a collector friend to get his approval to show pictures of the rare Mandau you are referring to. His is the only one I have handled myself.

Michael

Dajak 10th November 2006 05:58 PM

Hi Michael the sadap they discribe in junboll has an different handle than yours take a look also in zonnevelds book page 117

I will see if my friend still have his spear

And yes I like to see his mandau

It is always a problem to classify weapons but dayak weapons are just a few
The other ones was taken from the country they came and mixed up with dayak weapons but short daggars where never used by the Iban because
they have no use for it is is an maleier weapon not an dayak weapon
made and used in kalimantan

VVV 10th November 2006 09:43 PM

8 Attachment(s)
Hi Ben,

I haven't claimed those daggers as attributed to the Iban tribe?

Here is the rare mandau I think you wanted to discuss - the Bayu.
I received these pictures from Karsten Sejr Jensen together with his description intended for this forum of his Bayu (directly translated from Danish to English by me):

The blade is 40 cm and the complete mandau is 59,5 cm.
It originates from Central Borneo (the Kajan/Kenyah tribes).
The handle shows Hiraang Lejau Midaang, a deity from Apua Lagaan, that sends the rice spirits back to Earth so they can unite with the growing rice (attending the rice festivals in the form of a Hudoc mask).
The belt buckle is a temple lobe from a skull.

Kind regards,

Karsten

Battara 11th November 2006 06:43 PM

Freaky! :eek: Never seen a mandau blade like before, thank you for posting and clearing up the origin of the other daggers.

Dajak 12th November 2006 10:12 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Hi Michael this is an very nice mandau the blade is rare but Handle on these
are mostly different like this one,
but it is an very nice rare hard to get blade.

Battara 12th November 2006 07:23 PM

And more with the :eek:

VVV 12th November 2006 07:56 PM

Ben,

Thanks for sharing an additional example of this rare parang.
I agree that the handle of your example looks closer to the illustration in Blink.
It's a pity that the pictures in the Shelford article are so poor.

Michael

Dajak 12th November 2006 08:47 PM

Hi Michael this one is from the time they have no pics That s why you see no picture off it .
But the mandau from your friend is great I only wanna say that the handle is maybe replaced or the weapon was later than the example from blink.
Having an mandau like this is very rare and your friend have something real special .
the pics in shelford very difficult to see but the classification is nice .
Don t forget the pakayun the type we both have that is in it that is also important for dating after 1900 the fork handle was in use (or the one we have was only for special people) .
I will have something special in an few weeks I will post it here
never see anything like it .

Mytribalworld 13th November 2006 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Hi Michael this one is from the time they have no pics That s why you see no picture off it .
But the mandau from your friend is great I only wanna say that the handle is maybe replaced or the weapon was later than the example from blink.
Having an mandau like this is very rare and your friend have something real special .
the pics in shelford very difficult to see but the classification is nice .
Don t forget the pakayun the type we both have that is in it that is also important for dating after 1900 the fork handle was in use (or the one we have was only for special people) .
I will have something special in an few weeks I will post it here
never see anything like it .


Hi Mikael,

does the blade fits good in the scabbard? its seems to me like a double edged blade but the scabbard look like a single edged. :confused:

VVV 14th November 2006 05:14 PM

Hi Arjan,

Welcome to the forum.
It's not my blade but I know that it fits the scabbard from visiting Karsten. It hangs on his Borneo wall in its scabbard.
But I agree that the scabbard looks like a regular mandau scabbard.

Michael

Dajak 14th November 2006 11:02 PM

Hi Arjan can you look up for the Item numbers what date they came into the museum



Ben

David 15th November 2006 12:30 AM

Wow!!! Michael and Ben, excellent blades. I just want to thank both you guys for your continued efforts to shed light on the Dayak world. I only have one Dayak weapon but find these blades very interesting. Keep up the great work. :)

Mytribalworld 15th November 2006 08:50 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajak
Hi Arjan can you look up for the Item numbers what date they came into the museum



Ben


Hi Ben,

will do in the next weeks I will visit the archives of leiden and will look for that.
between my articles I found this about a bayu wich was collected by Bier during the expedition with Nieuwenhuis.
the article if from Stingl " Schwerter aus Zentral Kalimantan.
jahrbuch des museums fur volkerkunde Leipzig 1969
its a very good study, also because Nieuwenhuis/Bier was almost the only one who gave good descriptions when they collected and mentioned ,place,name of the tribe etc.
sadly the pics are quite bad.

Arjan.

VVV 15th November 2006 10:32 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks for posting another example of this rare sword.
I noticed that the scabbard of the Bier Bayu resembles the one of Karsten's (looks more like a regular mandau scabbard than having the profile of the Bayu blade).
Also the hilt looks more like a regular mandau hilt than the variation of Ben's example and the one in Blink (illustration below as a reference).
In the Leiden catalogues two Dayak tribes are referred to; "Kajahan" (Kayan?) for the one with regular mandau antler hilt and "Bejadju" for the one with a wooden hilt. The picture of the one with wooden hilt is unfortunately not that good so I am insecure if it's related to the Blink version?
In Shelford's article the Bayu is classified as a Sea-Dayak sword but I doubt that this is the case?However he describes his example as having a regular mandau hilt.
Do you think that the hilt form variations are tribal or maybe they are age indicators?
Or maybe all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is wrong?

Michael

Dajak 15th November 2006 12:12 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Hi Michael I think hilts are age indicators and that all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is MAYBE wrong . (not for sure)

Look at these pis you see latok with this handle or mandau

Latok handle look like the mandua I put pic on could be same tribe so it is in my opinnion an not an seadayak one.( also blade not curved al sea dayak ones have it )

VVV 15th November 2006 12:44 PM

Hi Ben,

I see some similarities in style but still think there are more differences in the handle. Interesting comparison however.
On Shelfords mentioning of Bayu as a Seadayak sword I took a closer look at the reference picture. It's not a "proper" Bayu in his article but something closer to the blade of the parang we posted on the recent Sumatra Borneo thread. But with a mandau hilt and a long back edge.

Michael

Mytribalworld 15th November 2006 05:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Thanks for posting another example of this rare sword.
I noticed that the scabbard of the Bier Bayu resembles the one of Karsten's (looks more like a regular mandau scabbard than having the profile of the Bayu blade).
Also the hilt looks more like a regular mandau hilt than the variation of Ben's example and the one in Blink (illustration below as a reference).
In the Leiden catalogues two Dayak tribes are referred to; "Kajahan" (Kayan?) for the one with regular mandau antler hilt and "Bejadju" for the one with a wooden hilt. The picture of the one with wooden hilt is unfortunately not that good so I am insecure if it's related to the Blink version?
In Shelford's article the Bayu is classified as a Sea-Dayak sword but I doubt that this is the case?However he describes his example as having a regular mandau hilt.
Do you think that the hilt form variations are tribal or maybe they are age indicators?
Or maybe all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is wrong?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Bier gives as tribe with this bayu the "Kantuk" tribe from upriver Kapuas.
It must be a tribe related to the kajan as you see on the style of the hilt.

what I think is that the bayu was in use by different tribes all over Borneo.
seen to the very different handles ( I also found two examples in the collection of the Leiden Museum wich had totally different styles)
one was mentioned as "South Borneo".

Arjan

Dajak 16th November 2006 03:13 AM

Hi Arjan what is the time they bring the weapons in


Ben

Mytribalworld 16th November 2006 05:18 PM

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

Albert 16th November 2006 09:26 PM

Some additional information that may be helpful: 781-104 (781-04 does not exist) is, according to Juynboll, called a pisau poelang banaga (sword with a hilt with a naga). It has been collected in South-East Borneo by Mr. W.E.M.S. Aernout and has come into the collection of the museum in 1890, from his legacy.

Albert

VVV 17th November 2006 06:34 AM

Thanks Albert and Arjan,

Why isn't 781-104 among the other Bayu in Juynboll but placed among the transition swords to Mandau? Doesn't the blade follow the regular Bayu shape?

There is one additional Bayu in the picture archive as well as Juynboll, 659-87. It's unfortunately hard to see the details of its wooden hilt (it's the one classified as Bejadju).
Also, in my version, the German one (I assume you have the Dutch version?), on page 238 (the last sword before Latok starts), there is referred to "E.C.V. 90" instead of a regular catalogue number.
Do you kow what that means and how to find the picture of this 4th Bayu?

Michael

Dajak 18th November 2006 04:06 AM

HI Albert and don t forget there is a lot off missing off the collection in Leiden
i heard from someone that has been there for his study that a lot off objects might been stolen or disappear .



THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION BUT THEY STOPPED THIS BECAUSE TO MUCH MISSING .


Ben


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