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-   -   BARUNG TAUSUG? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26200)

tanaruz 17th August 2020 09:33 AM

BARUNG TAUSUG?
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hi friends,

Sharing this lovely barung from my father's collection.

Tausug?

OAL: 25.25 inches/ blade: 18.5 inches

WW2 era? seller claims it to be late 19th-early 20th century.

Enjoy!

Yves

Ian 17th August 2020 01:38 PM

The scabbard has some nice MOP carving on it. That's very fine work!

I would say the scabbard is from the 1950s and the barung from WWII era. Not 19th C IMHO.

tanaruz 17th August 2020 01:58 PM

BARUNG TAUSUG?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
The scabbard has some nice MOP carving on it. That's very fine work!

I would say the scabbard is from the 1950s and the barung from WWII era. Not 19th C IMHO.



Hello Sir Ian,

Thanks for the info.

Am I right to say it is of Tausug origin?

Regards,

Yves

Ian 18th August 2020 01:30 AM

Yves, I think it is a Sulu barung, most likely Tausug.

Battara 18th August 2020 02:08 AM

I do LOVE that pierced MOP shell work! :D

xasterix 18th August 2020 04:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanaruz
Hi friends,

Sharing this lovely barung from my father's collection.

Tausug?

OAL: 25.25 inches/ blade: 18.5 inches

WW2 era? seller claims it to be late 19th-early 20th century.

Enjoy!

Yves


Hi,

All features point to another tribe :) It's not a Tausug barung. Blade is younger than WW2, probably 80s onwards. I've held very similar and provenanced samples that are from the 80s and 90s.

Sajen 18th August 2020 07:17 PM

I guess that the scabbard is much younger as the barung. Yves, is the ferrule from silver?
Xas, look to the pommel, it has an age crack and in this form and patination I would say that the sword is much older as end of 20th century. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Battara 19th August 2020 12:26 AM

As I look at this again, I find the blade profile is strange and not traditional, unless this is a trick of the camera angle.............

Ian 19th August 2020 12:43 AM

I thought it was the angle of the picture that made the blade look a little odd. Buy Xasterix may be right, that this is not Sulu. Yves, can you give us a picture taken directly over the blade?

xasterix 19th August 2020 08:14 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Here's a similar sample with 80s provenance; it's already been halfway restored, it came from a lot of rust and dirt. As you can see, if I tilt the camera angle a little, it directly resembles the OP's blade profile. Even the broken 'beak' is consistent here; the textile is just a different pattern. MOP is also present in this 80s sample, just of a different style.

Detlef, I believe that particular blade profile did not exist before the 1970s. The break at the pommel of the OP's barung may not necessarily be due to age; bunti can crack when improperly handled either during pommel creation or handling (especially with a crack as large as that one). So far the age cracks I've encountered on pre-1900 bunti aren't as large yet as to allow the insertion of a coin.

Ian 19th August 2020 09:48 AM

Hi Xas,

I think your blade's profile is a little more extreme than in the OP. The spine is almost straight and the belly of the blade is a long way forward of the midpoint of the edge. The OP shows a more curved spine and the belly about midpoint of the blade. Also, the hilt is more crudely carved and the kakatua is less refined on yours, while the quality of the MOP carving is much better on the OP. Even allowing for differences in quality, I thought the hilt and its punto looked fairly typical Sulu work. Let's see if Yves can give us better pics of the blade.

Ian.

Sajen 19th August 2020 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Detlef, I believe that particular blade profile did not exist before the 1970s. The break at the pommel of the OP's barung may not necessarily be due to age; bunti can crack when improperly handled either during pommel creation or handling (especially with a crack as large as that one). So far the age cracks I've encountered on pre-1900 bunti aren't as large yet as to allow the insertion of a coin.


Hi Xas,

Hope it's not too rude to say that you compare an apple with a potato, the pommel of the OP is rather good carved, the pommel from the example you posted is very crude and simple carved, the ferrule from the OP seems to be from silver (I guess, Yves can you confirm??), your example seems to has one from aluminium, the MOP inlays at the scabbard from the OP are from very good quality carving, yours are very crude.
The only point is the blade profile but like Ian I would like to see better pictures in a different angle from the OP.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen 19th August 2020 06:00 PM

2 Attachment(s)
comparison

xasterix 19th August 2020 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Xas,

Hope it's not too rude to say that you compare an apple with a potato, the pommel of the OP is rather good carved, the pommel from the example you posted is very crude and simple carved, the ferrule from the OP seems to be from silver (I guess, Yves can you confirm??), your example seems to has one from aluminium, the MOP inlays at the scabbard from the OP are from very good quality carving, yours are very crude.
The only point is the blade profile but like Ian I would like to see better pictures in a different angle from the OP.

Regards,
Detlef


No offense taken; my sample is indeed more crude, but I still believe it's from the same time period as OP's post. The variability in width of the blade is also noted in both barungs; however I believe they are still similar in terms of blade profile configuration. It's the only picture I have on hand, but I've handled others that are of similar build yet as better quality in terms of aesthetics (closer to OP's sample).

Like all artisan-based products, there are levels of quality; but some indicators remain consistent despite aesthetic differences.

David 19th August 2020 11:48 PM

So Xasterix, but i see two rather different blade profiles here. The differences are subtle, but clear to me. :shrug:

Sajen 20th August 2020 12:52 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
No offense taken; my sample is indeed more crude, but I still believe it's from the same time period as OP's post. The variability in width of the blade is also noted in both barungs; however I believe they are still similar in terms of blade profile configuration. It's the only picture I have on hand, but I've handled others that are of similar build yet as better quality in terms of aesthetics (closer to OP's sample).

Like all artisan-based products, there are levels of quality; but some indicators remain consistent despite aesthetic differences.


Fine! ;) You may not know that I have a similar example to the OP in my collection ( in my opinion, I can be wrong), the scabbard which come with also has had once MOP in up and down, blade shape could be similar (?) and I think that both from a similar time frame, the OP may be a little bit younger. I would place both around WWII. The ferrules are by my one from German silver or white brass and the blade is laminated.
I really would like to know if the ferrule from the OP is silver. Silver by barungs in this quality after WWII I never have seen! ;)
And laminated blades after this time I am also not aware of. So it would be also good to know if the OP has a laminated blade.
See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=restore

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen 20th August 2020 01:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So Xasterix, but i see two rather different blade profiles here. The differences are subtle, but clear to me. :shrug:


Hello David,

We really would need to see pictures from both (Yves and Xas) barungs in a similar angle like my example is shown.
It's rather difficult for me since they are not shown from up. I've played with pictures from both pieces but come to no conclusion. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen 20th August 2020 01:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This is useuable! But need one from Yves to compare.

Ian 20th August 2020 01:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Perhaps Xas is referring to the wrap on the scabbard. This appears to be Yakan rather than Tausug. I had not looked carefully enough at the scabbard fittings. Part of the problem with very dark pictures is missing subtle but important features. Here's a better look at the scabbard and its wraps.


.

tanaruz 20th August 2020 02:28 AM

BARUNG TAUSUG?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Hello friends,

Additional pics.

Note: the ferrule is silver.

Kind regards

Yves

Ian 20th August 2020 07:22 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Well, this is interesting. We have three similar barung, but perhaps not so similar. With roughly comparable pictures, we can put them side by side and see how they differ.

In the accompanying composite picture, top to bottom, we have Yves' original post, followed by an example posted from Yaz, and lastly a similar barung of Detlef. On each blade I have drawn a vertical white line halfway between the hilt and the tip. In addition, I have tried to define with a black arrow where each blade is at its widest point. It is apparent that the top (Yves) and bottom (Detlef) swords have a similar geometry: the widest point lies to the left (i.e., towards the hilt end) of the midpoint of the blade. The example of Yaz is different: the widest point of the blade lies to the right (i.e., towards the tip) of the blade. Yaz's blade also has a much straighter spine than the other two.

Yaz has identified his barung as Yakan, and I agree that Yakan blades (at least post WWII) have straighter spines and are weighted more towards the tip than are Sulu (Tausug, Samal) blades. The other two blades appear more consistent with Sulu blades, having their widest points closer to the hilt.

The hilts on the top and bottom examples also look Sulu, but I would need to have them in hand and inspect them more closely before excluding a Yakan origin. The Yakan coverings on the scabbards of Yves' and Yaz's examples has been noted already. Detlef's is less clear because there is no textile present and his scabbard is wrapped entirely in fine rattan.

So, accepting that Yaz has shown us a typical recent Yakan example, and the other two swords have different blades, then are the others perhaps Sulu blades in Yakan dress?

I do think that Yves and Detlef's swords look older than 1970, although the scabbards could be that vintage or later.

.


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