And... IT KEEPS THE VAMPIRES AWAY!

I can't believe you forgot mentioning the most essential feature!
:p

urban myth put out by vampirs so they could have a ready supply of garlic to flavour their food as it has anti-coagulation properties, it enables vampirs to drain every last drop.

don't ask me how i know these things. if i told you i'd have to bite you.

Hi all,
I am a late comer to this discussion because I have been away from computers for several weeks.
Ariel, I join the rest in congratulating you on the fine research work. Besides the facts presented, it is also very plausible, because in many languages short vowls are inserted in a consonant cluster whenever it is uncomfortable to pronounce. The best example I know is spoken Palestinian Arabic where this is done in almost every other word.
However, I also see kronckew's point: why not use karud whether it is invented or not? The naming question has been discussed many times as I understand, but it is a very important for this forum and therefore I will add my own opinion.
No method of naming is without serious flaws. The use of "collectors" terms may not reflect any insight at all and different names for the same items are common, as well as mindless copying of names read somewhere. Local "real" names are good to know, but are often generic and reflect a language of origin more that a type. Many names mean knife, dagger or sword in their language of origin' like saif in Arabic as opposed to shamshir in Persian.

This means that all names are rather loose denotations of certain types and not definitions or tool in a classification system, like in biological species for example. So, any discussion that has names as focus, and these very common in the forum, has really not much value and is far less meaningful than questions like age, origin, use, materials etc. It is not that the discussion of naming is without value, but in contrast to other subjects, there can not be absolute right or wrong because weapon names do not represent real entities.

Yes, precisely.

Motan, thank you.
That is my sentiment exactly, and I stated it at the very end of my post.

There is no way we can undo a century of popular usage. Informal discussions will still use "Karud" as a stenographic term. There is, however, a measure of relief in finally knowing whence this European mistranscription come. It was called "Kard" in Farsi and "Kord" in Dari- speaking areas. It will be up to professional arms historians whether they continue to use it in academic publications. I am encouraged by a long list of authors describing it as " straight-bladed pesh kabz", which it is in reality.

Again, thanks to everybody for your interest and opinions.

Motan,
A brilliantly written and concise closing summary to the discussion here, and perfectly describing these circumstances concerning the terminology used to describe various weapons.
You may be late to the discussion, but I cant help thinking of the analogy of 'the cavalry arriving' !! :)
Thank you!

Jim

Ariel, actually you have been arguing that the term "karud" should not be acknowledged or used at all. You specifically mention using only "pesh kabz" or "kard"...........

So how about other terms, how about "kirach", should it not just be a tulwar since the blade is just straight instead of curved?

Oliver, I have wondered why you would not use "karud" even in your auction descriptions, and I understand your intent but what about other similar words...take "pulowar" "pulwar" "pulouar"...I do not know of any text from the 1800s or early 1900s that uses any of these terms except for Egerton and later Stone, but numerous examples of "Afghan tulwar" exist. Why stop at "karud", why not examine each and every term and delete from our collective memories what is not absolutely historically or linguistically correct???

You are absolutely right! Word "tulwar" is just "a sword". That is way in India there are "khanda tulwar", "sukhela tulwar", "kirach tulwar" and so. Most of the "Indian" terms that we use now are conditional and pseudo-scientific but we have no other.

And there is also "talwar"??? Which one was first, did the original users call a certain sword "tulwar / talwar", if not then this particular word should not be used in any "academic publications" etc.

If it were not for the Europeans and others that first took the time to collect, name, research and preserve these weapons were would we be today, and they did it without the internet, I think its wrong to try and erase their contribution to the history of these weapons, even if not always linguistically correct, we owe a debt to these people.

Someone asked Indian: "What is this?" - "This is tulwar (a sword)". "And what is this?" - "This is kar(u)d (a knife)". Not a single specific type of weapon, but a common name.
You know in ancient India there were not specific names for flowers, fruits or some other similar group of things, only for very important things for Indians: "What is THIS?" - "It is a flower". "What is THAT one?" - "That is a flower too". "But what is the third one?" - "O! This is LOTUS!"

Wow, there seems to be a huge amount of emotional attachment here!

We're all standing on the shoulders of giants. (Well, rather lots of shoulders from along the normal distribution with only a minority of intellectual giants thrown in... ;))

While the longstanding collecting interest of rulers as well as lots of well-of folks worldwide certainly helped to rescue examples of material culture from the vagaries of conflicts, social change, climate, etc., we should not forget that the colonial/postcolonial times were (and still often are) not fair - not all "acquisitions" either...

However, knowledge is not carved in stone but evolves continually. There will always be changes and it doesn't help to cling to mere words, especially if current usage is shown to be based on misunderstandings or errors.

Discussions rarely lead to universally accepted results, even in an academic setting. A wise human being once remarked that outdated ideas often die with their long-time proponents... ;)

Here we rarely deal with rigorously established scientific facts that lead to clear results; we rather have a vast pool of diverse experiences and knowledge and its free sharing by active forumites yields very valuable insights. I'm sure we can live with some diversity including divergent point of views!

Regards,
Kai

languages are not static, they are living things, constantly learning and evolving.

[QUOTE=estcrh]Ariel, actually you have been arguing that the term "karud" should not be acknowledged or used at all.

Eric, please be kind enough to actually read the last two words in your citation from my post :" Professional literature"



So how about other terms, how about "kirach", should it not just be a tulwar since the blade is just straight instead of curved?

Kirach or alt. kirich are likely to be ( mis) transcriptions of Turkic word for Kilic ( also just " sword"). That's my hint to you. If you wish to devote time and effort to uncover the real local name for this pattern, you are more than welcome. I shall be the first to applaud you.

Kir(a)ch (the same as in the case of kar(a)d).
"Kirch tulwar" (most correctly "kirch tuRwar") - straight sword, literally means "sword for to split (to cleave)".

So, the correct name of Kirach is Kirch?
Sounds good to me:-)

I applaud you.
BTW, where does this information come from?

The word is written like "kirch". But pronounced like "kir(a)ch", "kir(u)ch" and so. It depends on who is speaking and who is listening. When the Indians speak, then I, a Russian guy, hear how "kirЭch" (very short sound "Э", like "ae" in English).

Many thanks. I often travel around India, read in museums the descriptions in Hindi, communicate, talk to antique dealers and gunsmiths, and in Moscow I sit with Hindi/Urdu dictionaries))

Highly commendable.

Can you bring an official reference?

:confused: About "kirch"? I am sorry. Only the word itself:
کرچ
किरच

Ariel, I have been searching for you some references for kirch, but look what I have found in Baden-Powell hand-book. I forgot about it.
Specially for you :)

Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum
1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region
in 1984)

123 different daggers and knives from Islamic countries from the 17th-19th Century
60 pages, 2 color plates, numerous black and white photos, descriptions and history of development in German language.

Egerton seemed to label just about any type of dagger as "pesh kabz". I give credit to the people who tried to sort out the distinct types by applying individual names. Some people seem to have just gone along with Egerton while others did not, which eventually led us to the current discussion. You can see what is clearly a pesh kabz #717, with two kards #721 and #722 and what looks to be a choora / karud #624


An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms: Being a Classified and Descriptive Catalogue of the Arms Exhibited at the India Museum: with an Introductory Sketch of the Military History of India, Earl Wilbraham Egerton Egerton
W.H. Allen, 1880.

George Stone basically followed Egerton. As noted earlier he also separately mentions the "karud" as being a straight bladed pesh kabz, referencing Moser, but in his illustration he has karud and pesh kabz lumped together and states that "as a rule the blade is straight" so are we to assume that the curved bladed pesh kabz were not well represented in that time period leading Stone to think that the straight blade was the most common construction? In our time, with the benefit of the internet, we have access to many images of karud and pesh kabz.

P.Holstein, "Contribution A L’Etude des Armes Orientales", 1931. Vol. II, plate XX, the author shows both pesh kabz and karud daggers.

Kerala daggers
 

So, is the kerala dagger a form of the pesh kabz?

Estcrh,

Very clearly. Million thanks.
Even if "karud" emerged as "kangaroo", as "kangaroo" it has the right to exist. #historydidit.

From the book, here you see kirch (straight sword) mentioned as well as khanjar, which is described as a bigger version of the bichua dagger shown, which does not look like what we would call a "bichua". No mention of a curved pesh at all.

HAND-BOOK of the MANUFACTURES AND ARTS of the PUNJAB, 1872, B.H. BADEN POWEL

It is solely our problems. In the book all right.

Peshkabz is just an object which necessary to keep differently unlike all Indian daggers. If it straight or curve - it is only the details.

Kard daggers from George Stone.

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.

Well Eric
Holstein speaks only of pesh kabz...
The text under the picture is not from Holstein...
Nevertheless I share your general opinion.
Best,
Kubur

Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)


Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?

And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".

Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?

Ariel, please stop trying to speak for everyone here, I am not trying to convince anyone here of anything, I am showing examples from a variety of sources where the different terms came from, who said what and when. If you have seen it all then just dont look, other people now and in the future may not have seen them.


Ariel, that is my PERSONAL interpretation, no more fabricated than any other, including your suggestions that we fabricate a completely new history by pretending that the work "karud" does not exist. In my opinion it is you that is recommending the use of false facts.


In fact Ariel, we already have an accepted term for the "straight bladed pesh-kabz"....it is "karud". It is my right to disagree with you, and what exactly is your new correct term???


Ariel what I have agreed with is that the known history of these terms absolutely should be brought up in academic publications and but that they should still be used.....you have and still do insist that the word "karud" should be stricken from academic publications.....two completely different and opposed thoughts.

Ian, I have not disagreed with Ariels thoughts on the subject except for his suggestion that the word "karud" no longer be used.....as we can all see there has been over time a progression as far as terms go. First there were general terms, then over time people struggled to categorize the many different forms into more identifiable categories based of certain features, either by blade, or hilt, overall shape etc.

For example, some sources mention the pesh kabz as only being straight bladed, with no mention of a curved blade, others take a completely different route and they lump the curved bladed and straight bladed together, while some people call the curved bladed type a pesh kabz and the straight bladed ones as karud.

There are no real rules, its good to have as much of the existing data available in one place and for people to make up their own minds based on how they see things.

Now this would be an interesting new discussion.

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

OK Eric , you won.

"Don't worry, be happy" :-)

Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.

The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????

What is written in the descriptions of museums it is only for curious visitors.
At the forum there is slang, in conversations of collectors and dealers, in the descriptions of museums and richly illustrated books there is slang too.
Nobody forbids us to know that water it is H2O, but we ask "water" when we thirsty. Do not read the descriptions in the museums and albums at all except for items outside your circle of interests ))