Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   ID on dagger ? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832)

hbhansen 11th January 2012 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife


Not much difference there...

Rick 11th January 2012 05:48 PM

I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before . :confused:

I just can't find it . :(

David 11th January 2012 06:42 PM

Are you sure you are not thinking of the example that Emmanuel posted in post #25. It looks like it was first posted my Tim back in 2007 in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

Rick 11th January 2012 09:40 PM

Okay, so Tim owns or owned the other example of this form .

I can't find the thread on that knife though; got the one on the chopper .

Gavin Nugent 13th January 2012 06:52 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Perhaps these belong to a member :shrug:

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team :D

thinreadline 13th January 2012 10:20 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Perhaps these belong to a member :shrug:

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team :D


And here are my two !

thinreadline 13th January 2012 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
And here are my two !


Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009

Emanuel 13th January 2012 01:46 PM

Hello,

I don't think the Bou Saada knives can be compared to the knife in question. The former have an integral bolster forged as part of the blade, whereas the latter has a a separate bolster, very different construction.

The circle motif decoration has been shown on many different types of weapons and objects from around the world with the good argument that it developed independently in most places. It's a simple design :shrug:
Same with the leather-clad wooden sheath.

I think the knife in question is a north-Indian/Central Asian derivative of the kard :shrug:

Regards,
Emanuel

Dom 13th January 2012 04:32 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009
Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife) :D
and ... Bou Saada, in general? :shrug:
i already have 3 and I see nothing :eek:
please HELP ... :p

+

Dom

thinreadline 13th January 2012 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife) :D
and ... Bou Saada, in general? :shrug:
i already have 3 and I see nothing :eek:
please HELP ... :p

+

Dom


And I entirely agree with you Dom ...I am not saying that they are similar to Henriks knife , I am just adding a couple of pictures of my Bou Saadi knives to those posted by freebooter . You need to ask freebooter this question !

Dom 13th January 2012 05:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
You need to ask freebooter this question !

yes, and I did it after his "friendly tackle" :p
I explained my position after his terse question " :) "Yes but why" ;) "
may be he doesn't found time to do it ... :shrug:
because he doesn't answer yet
as all that it's for fun ... it's not important :D

+

Dom

chregu 13th January 2012 06:17 PM

hello guys
North Africa, wrong way.
Only time fantasizing.
Blade shape. = Working Knife
Handle, I've seen several of these type of knife, never with a wooden handle, always ivory , why? there is no wood in this region? why never with horn handle?
Ivory handle. = There is a lot of ivory there. or ivory as a symbol?
Sheath, a part of the handle is in it, which occurs in many Knife by nomadic tribes so that the knife never get lost.
Why a second leather, on a leather sheath?
Sheath with belt loop = there are trousers worn with a belt or jacket with a belt?
South Asia, no, there are dresses tied with a sash.
These are just thoughts! smile.
gruss chregu

Gavin Nugent 13th January 2012 09:14 PM

Hi there :cool:

There are many aspects to work with what everyone has written to help us all with yes and no... "but why" should always be asked...it is not much longer than a no, but without "but why" there is no learning :rolleyes: I have quantified through following posts aspects for consideration both in Algeria & North Africa, SEA and Central Asia with both words and images :rolleyes:
....without rewriting everything, all views from all people help but things together and in context, is it fun :p

One must not forget colonial powers within any region and cutlery made for their tastes by native hands rather than keeping our minds eye native styles used by native people...could be Pakistan for all I know but offering information right or wrong and offering similarities and accuracies for thought may cloud but it also helps in the big picture.

Chegru, great to see further working deductions...no North Africa...do you dismiss Africa totally? I still feel with a qualified "in me bones" Africa.... :D Northern too :p
The finish to the steel blade, although I am not a blacksmith, this "rough" slag like finish I have seen often in daggers from Albacete....perhaps others have seen the finish elsewhere too :shrug:

All for now :confused:

Gavin Nugent 13th January 2012 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
The scabbard strap and clasp arrangement on Chregu's example is again, close to those seen on 20th century British khukri. Same kind of belt attachment.

Emanuel


Please provide an image :shrug:

The same suspension arrangement is seen on the knife at the bottom post number 35 :shrug: Also the Turkish knife of similar construction in post 16 :shrug: I am sure countless other types of knife too.... :confused:

Edit; Thanks for the update with images, certainly only one of the Kukri sheaths are suspended in this manner of the knife in question, the others are not....can't help but remember my sold item stock s117, it is frog suspended, not stictched to the body of the sheath....credits or asking permission to use copyright images would be appreciated.... :)

Gav

delor 14th January 2012 07:00 AM

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

Gavin Nugent 14th January 2012 07:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.


My thoughts too Delor as this is the 4th of this style I have seen in the last few years...I know Bonhams listed one a while back too....

Gav

A.alnakkas 14th January 2012 11:28 AM

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

Gavin Nugent 14th January 2012 12:44 PM

North Africa is a big place;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

Emanuel 14th January 2012 11:17 PM

My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum. :)

Gavin Nugent 14th January 2012 11:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum. :)


:rolleyes: Tis ok, thank you :)

hbhansen 16th January 2012 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.


When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

Gavin Nugent 17th January 2012 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhansen
When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik


I don't think "tourist" is correct either. These are of a type, to me eye colonialist influenced solid utility knives...origins unknown :)

thinreadline 17th January 2012 08:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!



Yes . The decorative motifs seem to be remarkably much like the Afghani knife you have recently posted on the 'Choora' thread.

hbhansen 19th January 2012 06:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I just found one more feature, that I missed in the first place.... This is only on the stamped side of the blade...

spiral 19th January 2012 09:56 PM

That features a rivet, the bolster isnt truly integral, ill post a kukri & some Karda in a few days that show some very similar features.

I think its NWF to Veitnam on horzontal travel, Southern China to southern Burma or Thailand on the vertical.

My real guess is Bengal/Assam/ Northen Burma....... small diameter ivory is Common , steel is at a preimium.

But nothing that makes the fat lady sing..... ;)

Spiral

Richard G 22nd January 2012 04:38 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Thank you, Ibrahim and Jim, for your welcoming replies to my previous post.

This may put the cat amongst the pigeons. The materials, construction and decorative motifs are all the same as Henrik's original dagger, but the style certainly isn't. I don't know where it's from either, my gut feeling is Nepal or Afghanistan. I suspect the stamps on the blade will be the feature that will eventually identify the origin. To me they seem very distinctive, and very, very, heavily struck. I wonder if anyone has seen them on any other metalwork. BTW, this is a hefty piece, 17" long overall.

I seem to remember something similar once being described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, but I can't remember any evidence for this.

I thought my previous photo's s bit OTT so I've tried to scale these back a bit.

Regards
Richard

hbhansen 22nd January 2012 09:08 PM

Hi Richard.
That's very interesting ! Thanks for posting. There's no doubt that your piece and mine is from the same region !
But where is that :confused:
Best
Henrik

chregu 23rd January 2012 07:51 AM

hello together
We are getting slowly closer! smile
definitely the same area! but no idea where.

Gavin Nugent 2nd February 2012 02:32 AM

2 Attachment(s)
There are similarities here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832

I also have found some other images to share later.

Gav

The later update....

The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African...

I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper.

I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong.
Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability.

Gav

Emanuel 9th February 2012 04:18 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques. This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off.

Emanuel


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