Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Plug bayonet & Left hand dagger (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13231)

Trond 24th January 2011 09:08 PM

Plug bayonet & Left hand dagger
 
I have a couple of blades I know next to nothing about. Both are in astonishing good condition, even the grip on the plug bayonet. It seems to never even has been put in a muzzle.

At first I believed the plug bayonet might have been assembled at a later date, taking the blade from a sword, but studying it closely it seems to be "one genuine piece". Could anybody come up with suggestions on country and approximate time?



The dagger is a beauty with almost impossible workmanship. The center of the blade and the sides of the ricasso are perforated in a intricate pattern and the V groves has hardly any diameter at the bottom. The sides go down and just straight up again. I am not able to understand how they managed to do it. Again - probable country and time period?

Trond

fernando 24th January 2011 09:27 PM

Hi Trond,
Fascinating pieces.
Could you post a close up picture of the plug bayonet blade, so that the inscription can be read ? Could it be Latin ?
Can you also tell us the blade length ?
By the way, do you know R.D.C. Evans book, called THE PLUG BAYONET ?
It is a fine work.

celtan 24th January 2011 11:20 PM

V ery B eautiful B oth : )

I think the latin motto roughly translates into

"Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad"

M

Trond 25th January 2011 06:44 AM

Here are a couple of pictures of the text. I have "hardened" the pictures slightly.





Trond

celtan 25th January 2011 01:18 PM

Aghh... it's so beautiful it makes me salivate...

Now we have:

"Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad"

" Fight for Fatherland, Altars (God) and Hearth (Home)"


Reminds me of the spanish military motto

"Por Dios, por la Patria y el Rey" (For God, Fatherland and King)



Good reasons to rot under 6 feet of soil and push up lilies...:rolleyes:

fernando 25th January 2011 05:33 PM

The PUGNO PRO PATRIA legend was a 'fashionable' patriotic motto in use in the 16th-17th century in several European countries.
A pity this is not enough to figure out the origin of this magnificent plug bayonet :shrug: .
Let's see if someone pops up with positive data.

No ideas about the left hand dagger, Gentlemen?
No close up pictures available, Trond ? :)

Trond 25th January 2011 07:54 PM

The speck on the cross guard seems to be - a speck... and no stamp.



BTW How does one edit the signature on this forum.

Trond

fernando 25th January 2011 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trond
... BTW How does one edit the signature on this forum.

Trond


Hi Trond. i have just sent you a PM.

Matchlock 26th January 2011 12:04 AM

Hi Trond,

Based on the grounds of Celtan's and 'Nando's brilliant inputs, I just wish to provide my opinion on dating these two items.

The plug bayonet can be safely dated to ca. 1700-1720 as it is already brass mounted instead of iron, and the quillon finials are no longer shaped as turnscrew and hammer for the barrel pins. The blade is recycled from a 16th c. sword and cut down respectively to dagger size.

The left hand dagger is of ca. 1580-90's date.

Both are preserved in optimum condition.


Best,
Michael

Trond 26th January 2011 07:10 AM

Thanx! They are evidently European, but does somebody have any idea about what country they the come from?

Trond

Matchlock 26th January 2011 03:06 PM

Hi Trond,

I am quite sure that the plug bayonet is French or Italian, re-using a 16th c. German blade, while the dagger doubtlessly is of German (Saxon?) origin.

Best,
Michael

Trond 26th January 2011 06:47 PM

Thanx again, I have a serious lot to learn on blades.

Trond

celtan 27th January 2011 09:20 PM

Brilliant? Not even in the darkest of nights!

: )

(of course, I meant Nando's...)

: P

Thank you kindly Trond, we are here to learn from each other.

Take care


Manuel Luis





Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Trond,

Based on the grounds of Celtan's and 'Nando's brilliant inputs, I just wish to provide my opinion on dating these two items.

The plug bayonet can be safely dated to ca. 1700-1720 as it is already brass mounted instead of iron, and the quillon finials are no longer shaped as turnscrew and hammer for the barrel pins. The blade is recycled from a 16th c. sword and cut down respectively to dagger size.

The left hand dagger is of ca. 1580-90's date.

Both are preserved in optimum condition.


Best,
Michael


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