Hi Cathey,

Thanks for the additional references. All very correct, a couple of the blades I showed are 18th century. The puzzle for collectors like myself on the ethnographic side has always been tracking down the crescents applied in Europe and associated makers as opposed to the habit of African smiths applying similar stamps after the fact so to speak.

I have to admit the form of the crescents show in this pattern I have more or less considered non-European due to the differences with the more elaborate crescents often seen. But I am quite happy to be shown to be wrong! I have always considered that quite a few of these blades turning up in basket hilts were 20th century combinations taken from kaskara/takouba (I am not trying to insinuate yours is).

So once again, thanks for the references!

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

More baskets of an English origin.

Grenadiers (?) half basket, 1750 (?)
30" curved se blade with single narrow back fuller.
This sword, although fairly pitted, is all original and does not appear to have ever been taken apart. The grip wire and wrap are long gone, but the ferrules remain. In spite of the pitting, there are traces of S HARVEY stamped on the flat of the blade.

Another probable Grenadier's hanger, ca. 1750.
27" se blade, with single narrow back fuller, stamped with the running fox and SH as used by the Harvey swordmakers.
Grip is sharkskin wrapped with brass wire; ferrules are brass as well.
The guard base is an open heart, and this sword retains what appears to be it's original heavy leather liner.

English/Scottish composed of rounded bars, arranged to form a basket of trellis form.
32" se blade, narrow and wide fullers, spuriously etched in the wide fullers during the 1700s with ANDRIA FERARA and various orb and cross marks.
Grip is sharkskin with gilt wires and Turk's heads (some wires missing).
The original scabbard is present.
The velvet liner is I think a later restoration.

I hope nobody feels I've derailed this thread by bringing up the African aspect. :)

Here's a couple larger images of the Czerny sword. It really does seem a twin.

I was quite leery of this one at Czerny's, the grip has no covering and is wood with red/brown and black as is the finish on the remainder of the sword.
Only recent rust is red/brown and it's not rust.
It very much looks like red primer with black paint applied and since then worn down.
I may be mistaken but I have never seen this colouring on a sword.

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .

And now for a few baskets from the continent.

Probably German, ca 1600.
32" curved se blade with single wide fuller, stamped with a mark on the left side.
Grip is a replacement that I need to replace one day, and the pommel may be a replacement as well.
Although of nice form, this is a crude munition grade basket of fairly hefty construction. There is a small curved hilt element missing on the left side of the hilt.

German, also ca.1600
37" straight se blade with a single moderately wide fuller, stamped with a heart and cross on the left side. The heart/cross stamp has been tentatively identified as an Italian bladesmith's mark.
While the basket itself is typical, the long straight quillions are unusual, and I've only seen one other hilt of this type with quillions like these. The base of the guard consists of two solid shells, the left one with a thumbring attached.
This sword is in excavated and cleaned condition. The forward quillion is modern, and several pieces of the guard have been repaired. The leather covered grip is one of my restorations.

German. I've seen these hilts dated from the 1550s up to about 1600.
41" straight de blade with a short central fuller in which is engraved IOHANNES.
Interesting hilt form that may have inspired Schiavonas. The oval members pierced with a slot defy identification, although I have heard a few hypotheses put forward (one of them x-rated).
The wire bound grip is one of my restorations, but the ferrules are original.

I first came across this sword in the early 1990s, when a collector that I knew got it out of a European collection. My aquaintance brought it to me because the grip was gone, and he wanted a replacement. The sword was covered in old, black, thick lacquer, which I suspect was used as a preservative in an old arsenal. The lacquer was to be removed as well. Where the lacquer resisted moisture and stuck firmly to the steel, the steel is nicely preserved, but where moisture penetrated the lacquer, some moderately deep pitting is present. So in the photos you can see areas of pitting, and right next door is a virtually pristine section of metal.

@ Jim nice to see you back here :-)

@ E.B. Erickson
wow, nice
Iam still looking for one of those.
this type of basket hilt from the third quarter of the 16C, is extremely beautiful and extremely rare, there are only a few known to me.


the most beautiful I know of, is auctioned at Bonhams;

A Composite North German Basket-Hilted Sword
Sold for £2,640 (€3,602) inc. premium


Auction 14956: Fine Antique Arms & Armour from the Henk L. Visser Collection 28 Nov 2007 13:00 GMT

also pictures of two others from the same auction, the left sword was for a period in my collection, the inner guard is formed as a fleur de lis.

best,

I cast my fly into a very deep dark pool here...full of very big fish!!
 

Salaams Jim, This is a great example of our huge library resource being better than much of what is out there...almost .. In researching I found your comments in earlier forums most interesting...and of course what brilliant resources you have aboard the Bookmobile :) !!! and how great it is to see you back..

I was puzzled at first in seeing this blade with a basket hilt and wondered what the connotations were in trying to solve the equation... I need not have bothered as your explanation hits the mark...A straight forward blade from Sudan but made in Solingen brought home and reworked onto a basket hilt... My recollection of blade marks puts the original European stamp type with Peter Munich in Toledo?:....Then the mark moved to Solingen ....(I refer to your own thread on blade marks). On its way it would have been given the Dukari treatment...then the basket rehilt..

The European moons are quite different to the North African style which appear to be Islamic in the Dukari fashion... The European moons, however, had another connotation which seems to be anti Papal.

Hats off to all the other contributors of this excellent group of articles and the superb examples shown. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

A Trap on Either Side
 

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

better format this time

Thank you Jasper, and Ibrahiim and Ulfberth thank you so very much for the kind words!
These swords and the topics of trade blades, markings and their incorporation into many forms of ethnographic swords brings back many years of memories in research. Lee, the anecdote you share here of course brings back wonderful memories as well, and well illustrates how the conundrum of trade blades and their use in so many forms through many generations.

The term conundrum applies as these blades often took on new identities as they were refurbished into various mounts though their long and often quite eventful lives. While it is often tempting to regard blades in seemingly incongruent context as fakes or contrivances, in ethnographic circumstances most often 'recycling' reached elaborate dimensions, and these assembled pieces were honest 'working' weapons.

The very reason this forum, the European Armoury ,was formed as an extension to the Ethnographic Forum was to address the need to better understand European and other blade sources which constantly were present in ethnographic contexts. Very often these somewhat separate fields became emphatically combined.

In the case of this thread and the fascinating basket hilt topic, the digression to blades as present of some of these basket hilts is often key to proper identification and assessment of examples. This is the case with blades often found in kaskara as discussed, and occasionally there are other anomalies which must be evaluated in the same manner.

Getting back to the main topic, I would like to note that much as Lee has described in his anecdote, though the blade discussed seems to be a later example of course than this very early hilt, there can be other reasons for its presence in context. During the British Raj in India there seems to have been instances of examples of quite early swords being proudly worn by Indian officers and ranking individuals in native regiments. I can recall a photo for example of a ranking Indian officer c. 1890s holding an 18th century Scottish basket hilt. It seems this was not a singular case, and while admittedly tenous, I include the scenario only as observation for consideration.
There were a number of notable Scottish and Irish regiments in India in these times, and the idea of their officers having ancestral swords of considerable vintage does not seem unreasonable.

Incidentally, I have owned for many years, an Indian pata with very old gauntlet hilt......its blade, as pointed out to me in later years was distinctly a kaskara blade with the characteristic triple central fullers and astral themed motif much as seen illustrated on examples in Briggs.

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,

the blade looks identical in shape like the one in your pictures, its 4,5 cm wide at the crossguard and 92 cm long, the inlay in the middle is a bit different and it is definitely of hexagonal hollow shape.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

Salaams Eljay, Sir, I am a beginner to the world of this type of hilt however I am interested in the Irish Basket Hilt and where such hilts were manufactured... Am I right in thinking that this is only a terminology and that there was no actual Irish Basket but that the Scottish Basket was simply sometimes referred to as Irish. (depending on how much Drambuii was consumed) :)
I am especially interested in the Shotley Bridge Swordmaker and wondered if they made a lot of Baskets for remounts and or for blades from there... I note the running Fox and SH on an earlier post related to the Shotley maker.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Its all about the Pommel
 

Hi Eljay and welcome Ibrahiim

Eljay you are correct, when it comes to hilt construction, actually there has been one posted on this site in the past. However, it is the pommel that sets the so called Irish hilt apart and I am, yet to find an example complete with this pommel and a different blade. Although like everything there is sure to be one out there somewhere. I have attached a picture of the previous sword posted on this forum, sadly can’t see the blade so I hope Mark Deyer who posted this sword originally in July 2013 will share with us a picture of the blade.

When I refer to the pommel you will note that both the example you posted and Mark’s have the typical English bun pommel. The swords reputedly with an Irish connection have a more Scottish style of pommel, quite distinctive. It is this combination that I am yet to find with a different blade.

I was also thinking about our tendency to refer to many early swords as being composite in a negative light. In reality with Germany, Italy and Spain being famous for their production of blades particularly from circa 1500-1700, most extremely original swords would fit in the composite category. For example almost all Scottish basket hilts had imported blades, the Scott’s made great hilts but appear to have had little appetite for making blades when you could order excellent quality from Germany or simply take one off a dead Englishman and have it re-hilted.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Ibrahiim
 

With the very early baskets there is certainly been some research to suggest that origins between Scottish, Irish and English are very blurred. There is a particularly good article written on the Sword hilts of the Border Reivers which I will attach, not sure how well it will come up in Jpeg.

When it comes to Shotley bridge this is an interesting area and there are two small books available that deal specifically with Shotley Bridge. They are:
BYGATE, John G The Hollow Blade - The german swordmakers of shotley bridge SC 74 pp.
RICHARDSON, David The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge, PB Northern History Booklet No: 37, 67pp.

Welcome to a fascinating area of sword history. The basket hilt has a certain amount of romance attached to it, but the variety and the fact that examples can also be attributed to Europe make it particularly interesting area of study. If only swords could talk we would know so much more.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex.

Czerny lot 186
 

Hi Will

Actually I think lot 186 at Czerny’s recent sale is correct. Looking at the way they photograph things I think the strange colour is just the way they have cleaned up there photo’s on the black background. If I lighten it up it looks pretty similar to mine, which also has evidence of a dark stain to the leather that is largely worn off. The sword was passed in so it is probably still available at the low reserve. If I didn’t have a good example already I would probably have go at this one.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey - OK, I now understand what you meant: the hilt construction plus the pommel type is only seen with the broad triple fullered blade. I am in agreement with that. The only exception could be the one illustrated in Mazansky.

Ibrahim - The term Irish hilt does not really refer to anything specific historically. Back in the 16-1700s it appears to have been used as a generic reference to basket hilts. Nowdays, it seems to be identified with a particular style of baskethilt construction as seen in the examples shown in this thread.

--Eljay

Excellent detail. The 'Anglo-Irish' hilt in post #36, c.1745 is virtually identical to the one posted in "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" by Anthony Darling (Vol. 7, #3, pp.79-96, 1974) in fig.7abc (p.86). Here the author notes that this style hilt was indeed associated with the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons noting the period as c.1740.
While the term 'Irish hilt' was often used collectively to describe 'Highland' basket hilts (Darling, ibid. p.84; Blair, 1962,p.86) these particular hilts, though distinctly British.....were termed Anglo-Irish for the connection to these Irish dragoon units.

In the example seen in Darling, the blade is 34", double edged and has one central fuller.
The Neumann example (265.S) is again identical hilt, but with two central fullers, and a note that a crescent engraving was present, but not otherwise specified.

In all the references I have seen on Scottish basket hilts, which includes most of those listed in these posts, the only triple fuller configurations have flutes on either side at the forte..much as seen with the c.1600 example with paired moons presumed Stamm Clemens.
While Stamm according to Gyngell (p.41) and Lenciewicz (p.66) show him using crescent moons, they were presumably among other marks and these were typically at the forte in those times.

As Iain has noted in post #38, the blade on the 'Irish' hilt dragoon c.1745 as well as images of the Czerny's example, are compellingly like blades used on kaskara (as well as takouba) in Africa from mid to latter 19th century. In actuality, the degenerated and stylized nature of the moons compares to many of these blades often termed 'masri' and the moons termed 'dukari'. These blades were indeed often German imports in the latter years of the 19th century, though may have come in earlier. Native armourers began making their own blades with this fuller configuration and the marks were strategically placed near the fuller terminals and believed to have magical connotation.

The example with the more artistically applied paired moons (believed Stamm) is exactly the kind of evidence long sought to find the ancestry of these crescent moons used in North Africa.
However what is puzzling on the other example (1745 Irish dragoon) and its counterpart noted as Czerny's item, is why would 19th century blades be present in hilts used in the 1740s?

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".

Thanks Cathey, digital photos can change colour and tone from one to the next.
It can give false impressions.
I see one Australian dealer bought a few from that auction in Sidney.
I would not think there would be room for much if any profit but swords seem to be a strong investment now.

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting... :)

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

Salaams Cathey and thank you very much for your excellent notes and fine detail...

Thanks also to Eljay and everyone for a most excellent thread...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks very much on the clarification Iain, and you're right, many of these triple fullered blades certainly could be attributed to the 18th century. As you recall it seems that these days, most of these kinds of blades found in North African settings are typically of 19th century. It is hard to say exactly what period of 19th century as blades were constantly recycled and used for often countless generations as well as intratribally traded.

My point was directed toward the dukari type moons of the masri blades, which as Briggs notes, were a phenomenon restricted to North African context. While many of these blades arrived in Africa from Germany entirely unmarked, at some point the native armourers added these talismanically significant paired moons probably to those blades as well as the copies of them produced locally.

The paired moons of the dukari began in context as well recognizable versions of the astral themes often seen on European blades. The moon was particularly key to tribal folk religion and probably adapted readily to their 'magical' perceptions, and duality is another often applied allegorical instance.
We know that swords, particularly in the case of the Sudan, were not necessarily widely used tribally until the Mahdist period. Until then most tribes used spears or makeshift weapons, as evidenced in these campigns in their outset. In time, the moons applied to blades (actually these occur more commonly on Tuareg blades which are typically smaller), became remarkably degenerated . They became less recognizable and almost geometric stylizations, as seen on the blades of our discussion on the 1745 Anglo-Irish hilt.

The question is..why would a German blade, even of that mid 18th century vintage, end up with markings of a type distinct to 19th century North Africa? and appear in a hilt form that ceased use by the 1780s by British cavalry units, and the terminus ante quem of these moons is 19th century with these in form likely the latter part.

All the best,
Jim

This has nothing to do with Africa
 

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Basket hilt – English or Scottish?
 

Date Circa 1640-1660
Nationality Scottish/English
Overall Length 99.2 cm (39.1 inches)
Blade length 86.7 cm (34.1 inches)
Blade widest point 3.8 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point 10.5 cm (4.1 inches)
Inside grip length 10 cm (3.9 inches)
Marks, etc. Three Kings Heads

Description
Early Basket Hilt with flat bun pommel, wooden grip with large iron bands top and bottom. The Guard is made up of circular iron branches with two square junction plates and forward guards. The terminal of the side guards is crude with lined decoration. The plates have lined decoration at each corner. The branches join in three groups and butt up against the pommel. The blade is wider than the slot in the hilt. The broadsword blade has no fuller and is German bearing three king’s heads indicating Solingen manufacture.

General Remarks
Described in correspondence from the Baron of Earlshall as “Date c1640-1660, blade 17th century and contemporary to the basket and made by the Wunderberg blade makers of Solingen.

Cheers Cathey And Rex

That is an excellent suggestion Cathey, and my posts on the topic of these African blades are of course clearly digressing from the theme of this thread which has been most informative and helpful on basket hilts. These swords are fascinating and very much deserving of continued research to add to core of extant data which exists, and often hard to obtain.

I will note that the contention concerning this blade on the Anglo-Irish hilt with anomalous crescent moons brings key attention to questions on the origins and development of these marks to which answers have been long sought in investigations on Solingen blades. Ironically, since Scottish swords as you have noted, were virtually always mounted with these blades, it was a quite likely context for this attention to arise.

I will post the blade topic on another thread as you suggest, and hope that participants here will continue the excellent discourse and focus on these basket hilts.

Salaams Lee, I missed entirely your excellent pictures and the way the Dukari moons had been resculpted to form Scottish Thistles which initially I thought were Persian Split Palmettes... :o

How right is your comment on examination of the whole sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

OK, here's my last basket for awhile. I do have other basket and half baskets to post, but they haven't been photographed yet. I will hopefully have time in July to take pictures of them, and will post shortly thereafter.

French, ca. 1750 (?)
32” straight se blade with narrow and wide fullers. The blade has been shortened from about 36”, and is etched with the French royal arms, sun-in-splendor, and scrolls.
Brass basket crudely made of two halves, copper brazed together. There are 4 holes where the forward guard loops were riveted on. There used to be a scrolled “quillion” at the wrist, but this has been removed.
At first glance this looks like an English military sword, and when I first saw this sword and it's twin in a collection in Maine, that's what I thought they were. However, inspection revealed numerous detail differences between this and a product of the British Isles. The former owner produced a book, “The Auld Alliance”, by Wood, and in it was a photo of one of these with the riveted loops and the thumb scroll in place, and with a 36” blade (if my memory serves). The text stated that these were made for Jacobites who had fled Scotland and were serving in the French army. I mentioned above that there were two of these in the Maine collection: the only difference between the two was the blade etching. The other sword had a large panelled “VIVE LE ROI” on the blade. I did obtain both of the swords from the collector in Maine, but the other one was traded off years ago.

The sword you traded
 

HI Eljay,

Very interesting sword, your right at first glance distinctly British. Did you keep pictures of the other sword you traded, if so I would love to see them.

Cheer Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,
Unfortunately, the other French basket was traded long before I began taking photographs of my swords.
However, it was literally a twin to this one, so just imagine a large etched panel with VIVE LE ROI on the blade and you've got it!

--ElJay

Hi Cathey and E.B.

I have collected basket hilts before but sold them like 20 years ago.
I have seen and sometimes see basket hilts that are of French origin or with French blades.
At one point I had one with a brass basket that was left at Waterloo, however I never found out if it was French or English or Scottish, it was in its scabbard with brass mountings, double edged blade with one fuller and rather short, almost like an infantry sword.
Anyway, here is one that is described as "Forte-épée écossaise de la 1ere compagnie des Gardes du corps du roi marquée "Vive le Roy - 1731"
wide shell combat sword forte, where sometimes contained the arms of France, the blade bearing the inscription "Vive le Roy"."

And the look of it is surely not French, If you would find a sword like this without inscriptions on the blade, one would never think of it as French.

It is present in the French le musée de l'Empéri Ancien régime

kind regards Ulfberth

Hello Ulfberth,
I'll do some speculating about that sword that you posted with the French blade: the hilt is a Scottish "Glasgow" type hilt, and I would bet that the sword was brought over to France by a Jacobite, who then had it rebladed to show his new allegiance. If only these could talk!!

--ElJay

Hi ElJay, that is an logical thought and keeping history in account it could very well be the case here, and were one did this there were probably more that followed.

Kind regards

Ulfberth