Salaams Fernando, Thank you very much for your reply. I am so pleased you agree that the offending weapon description has no place in this thread nor in others ... and that since it pollutes the story in several threads with its spurious reference to weapons of West Africa; Benin and Dahomey regions in particular having certainly travelled to the Indian Ocean in Portuguese Battleships...etc etc ..therefor they must be influenced by Kastane (Sinhalese Armoury weapons) that those pages too should be purged of such material. It is nonsense.

I repeat your advice ...Quote"For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of substantial evidence often forms their strong adversary".Unquote.

On the subject of raining in the wet... What new evidence have you supported in this thread ? We have here and in the sister thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...000#post220000 massive support of clear inter regional influence from mainly South India but also inter religious mirroring of architecture concerning the Kastane linked to Budhist and Hindu designs which are not affected by Portuguese constructs nor does it appear to have any link at all with the Nimcha... and by the way the other spurious sword from your author, a Nimcha Sword from Zanzibar, I recall is also wrongly written up with the detail of a Moroccan Nimcha... :shrug: Should we perhaps not be more careful with our referencing material?

I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

You are absolutely right, Ibrahiim,
I should have restrained my reflex to reply to your post.
But, as the late Rodríguez de la Fuente used to say; man is the only animal that stumbles twice on the same rock :shrug: .

I would be careful identifying the equilateral cross as being solely "Voodoo geometry" Ibrahiim. (Btw, the more proper term would be Vodun or Vodoun. While Certain diaspora sects in Louisiana use the term, Voodoo carries far to much bad Hollywood movie baggage with it).This symbol is both ancient and prolific and can be found amongst cultures spread all across the globe with various meanings. In many cases it represents a solar symbology, the four directions, the four elements, etc. Depends on the culture. You are correct that in West African cultures such as the Ewe and Fon it represents the crossroads, the meeting of the spirit world and the material. However, the equilateral cross also has a place in Christian iconography as well in many variations. So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

Salaams and thank you David for your input which I agree with entirely with the following caveat; The tribal leaders in West Africa very quickly adopted the Crucifix and would appear to have inserted the Cross into their broad leaf shaped swords probably from the Portuguese and as I have just outlined in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002 at #20

I believe this "Religious" geometry would have suggested to them a special extra degree of power over their people ... Your Vodun and Vodoun are correct terminology although I had researched the New Orleans and Haiti cultural aspects and Voodoo seemed linked which I think it is in part and shown by the diagrams at the other thread and came with the slaves from West Africa. Your indication about the cross roads symbolic meaning is particularly welcome and underscores what I have already written.

Several Congolese swords are found with such crosses in their quillon discs, David. I hardly see these perforations as symbols originated (different than adopted) by Kongo Africans. Amazingly a scholar (Wanynn 1961,65) even names them as Greek crosses.
The order of Christus, for one, was also present in the Kongo kingdom and had swords in their possession as a sign of status (Schellings 1949, 12).
The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.


.

Kubur, your PM box is full.

Fernando, there is certainly no doubt that Christianity made inroads on the African continent early on in the 15th century and that various African cultures did indeed accept it and work Christian iconography into their cultural artifacts. However, i was addressing Ibrahiim's assertions in my post, specifically references to "Voodoo geometry" and his link in his post #159 to images of the Haitian Vodoun vévé for Papa Legba, the Lwa of the crossroads. Vodun is more specific to the Dahomey Kingdom than the Konga Kingdom. While i remarked that the equilateral cross has many pre-Christian occurrences all over the world and is intact a symbol of the the crossroads in parts of African as well as the diaspora, vévé themselves, the practice of drawing these Lwa symbols on the ground with flour for ritual purpose is one that developed in Haiti and other diaspora countries, not Mother Africa herself, so the Legba crossroads symbol Ibrahiim posted has little bearing on this topic. However, in Africa this equilateral cross symbol was in use in pre-Christian days. Once Christianized i am sure that it took on a different meaning an purpose, but wherever one religion supplants another there is often some hold over to previous belief systems and meanings can be a bit fuzzy to interpret. There are also numerous syncretic sects throughout Africa that combine Christianity with traditional African religions. But when i wrote it is "most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation" i was referring to weapons from cultures that were purely African and had not fully converted to Christian ways. Either way i believe it is still difficult to tell the exact intent and purpose of the equilateral cross when it appears on these swords.

Good enough, David :cool:.

I have to say ...or should I say point out? That both these complex answers on the subject of Crosses are on completely the wrong thread. :shrug: My advice would be that the correct thread is ~

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002

~ where Crosses are being aired relevant to West African swords.

An interesting gift from Russia to Sri Lanka was made in the form of a previously lost sword now returned....and gifted to the National Museum.

LOL! Well, I have to say...it was you Ibrahiim, who raised the topic when you revived this old thread in your post #159. You placed the link to that thread and wrote:
I further cast doubt upon the claim that this is a Christian cross. Again the reference above refers. It is more likely to be Voodoo inspired.
You further press this question in post #161:
I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?
So if you truly think our responses are on the wrong thread you might want to ask yourself why you continue to encourage the discussion here. ;) :rolleyes:

David Thank you for posting your detailed work on the cross situation albeit on the wrong thread...which I hope can be remedied smartly.

Although it is plain to see that I was originally writing in context not out of it. In fact it was quite relevant as I was looking back with the thought of damage control in mind and to correct anything I felt needed attention... The West African Machette is clearly in that category since in view of post at #80. placed on this thread. it is a clearly out of sync. picture with spurious (at best) detail about West African/Portuguese Sinhalese influence unless you agree with the proposition that is?

But it is good that at least you now recognize that the Cross discussion belongs on another thread as it is relevant to West African detail...On the other thread in fact you will see clearly that I concur with the idea of the Portuguese influence and place my own research behind that premise... although I doubt much of the constructed work by others that the influence is Pharoaic or because it came down the trans Saharan highway..

SEE CORRECT thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002.

I do not encourage discussion here on this subject ...it is the wrong thread unless you are deliberate in placing it / chasing it here...? The threads are a mess because of this misplacement. Look at it from a logical viewpoint of library content...?

Whilst there is excellent detail on the said posts they are woefully misplaced. Can a consensus not be arrived at to sort this raveled mix up out?

Ibrahiim, everything i have written here is in direct response to information YOU have brought up within the context of THIS thread. I have no interest whatsoever in continuing this little back and forth we are currently engaged in nor any interest in transferring my comments to another thread where you believe it would be more appropriately placed. This "raveled mix-up" is entirely yours my friend. You can accept it and continue or simply move along. Thanks for playing. :)

Sir, You reverse away from discussion but delight in hacking the player not the ball...? You are in a spotlight here and refuse to even take the field. It is a shame. Your lack of interest is noted. I will indeed take this on myself.

THE KASTANE . Its Architecture.

I present here an interesting write up on a sold item see http://www.icollector.com/A-FINE-PRE...WORD_i15525534 where it states~

Quote"An exceptional example of classic form, wrought entirely of silver. The hilt elaborately chiseled with scrollwork, the pommel a fully-modeled makara head with ruby eyes, the guard with five further monsterheads, and the face of a fanged demon on the knucklebow. The lightly-curved, single-edged blade with blunt ricasso. In its finely embellished silver scabbard decorated en suite with the hilt, the terminal likewise formed as a monster head, and inscribed, MUDALIYAR B.P. AMERASINGHE. With its handwrought silver chain baldric terminating in a large filigreed bead. Second half of the 19th century.The term 'mudaliyar' is a Tamil honorific, generally applied to a high-ranking member of the military or government. Overall length 60 cm. Condition I." Unquote.

The proviso here being that the use of words by auctioneers and museums may vary considerably in describing the Deities and that a sympathetic viewpoint has already been adopted here on thread. Interesting is the silver chain baldric although something not noted by the auctioneers is The Humanoid Face, outward facing, sometimes refered to as The Humanoid Crocodile on the Knuckleguard which is another Deity not always present but every bit as fascinating. I think this is the Kirtimukha. With this in mind readers may note the extraordinary descriptive given at #49 to which I would add; Lions Head form... in many examples.

Unusually the so called Quilon structures(Vajra) are wide in this late model as opposed to earlier form which are close together. In this case has the European style of Quilon been adopted? Personally and since this was not a fighting weapon (court and badge of office only) I do not think so but it is noted in the margin for others to comment.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

In previous discussions, there has been the illustration(attached) with an entry in a book by Mr. Rainer Daehnhardt, which shows a sword (cutlass) with a cutlass type blade distinctive to Dahomey, West Africa. What is notable here is that its hilt is remarkably similar to the Sinhalese kastane with lionhead.
It has been suggested that this hybrid may reveal possible links between these vastly distant locations or possible developmental influences.
Actually I believe it is simply a notation to the similarity to a Ceylonese hilt.

It is well known to us as students of ethnographica that such instances of items of distinctly regional or cultural form may turn up occasionally in situations where they are completely incongruent in areas far distant and disconnected from their point of origin.

This seems a case of the union of a foreign or 'exotic' hilt being joined to a Dahomean blade in the oft used convention of such hybridization with diplomatically oriented swords.

Some time ago in discussions here there was a case of what appears a hanger type sword of kastane form (but has been rehilted it seems without the lionhead) and shown described as a 'dragon sword', found in British Columbia in Canada. This was discussed in a book titled "Similkeen: The Pictograph Country" (Bill Barlee,1978) and other research revealed an inventory of 1836 of the Northwest Co. which included 12 'dragon swords'.
("Rocky Mountain Outfit, 1836, Fontanelle, Fitzpatrick &Co.", papers of the American Fur Company, Reel 7, vols. Y & Z, Missouri Historical Society).

It is compelling to think of these as examples of 'kastane' which had arrived somehow in this unusual setting, with the resounding question of 'how did they get here?'.

In one explanation, it is noted there was an ill fated Spanish expedition into these regions mid 18th century (suggesting the term 'turtle people' in native legend there referred to the cuirasses of the Spaniards. It is conceivable that the Spanish had acquired some of these Ceylonese swords via their colonies in the Philippines, as trade entrepots there of course would have networked with others trading in Ceylon.
* shown is the route of the Hasekura embassy of 17th c. where a kastane was acquired from the King of Spain, either in Spain or Philippines.

However, the trade company case with 12 swords listed as 'dragon' swords seems much more likely conditionally. Some suggestion has been made that the term 'dragon' may be a contracted use of the term 'dragoon' of course referring to the heavy cavalry sabres. There is always that possibility, except that no other examples of these dragoon swords are known in these contexts. The was a favor for shorter weapons such as hangers, and the 'broadswords' listed were actually short, heavy artillery sidearms (the term broadsword was still generically used in those times).


Returning to the potential origins of the Sinhalese kastane form, an interesting example of dagger/short sword is shown in "Arts of the Muslim Knight", Furasiyya Foundation, 2008 (p.206, #197). It is listed as Deccani, probably Bahamanid dynasty and of 15th century.
It seems that these Deccani influences, the downturned quillons with Makara heads, and the general configuration of the hilt pommel and knuckleguard are remarkably compelling as a proto-kastane form.

These influences diffusing via Tamils to the east, provided a compelling conduit with their trade and diplomatic contacts into Ceylon with the central kingdom of Kandy. The artisans and craftsman of this kingdom were well known for their work on the piha kaetta knives so key in royal regalia, and apparently development of the kastane into a sword of status as well.
Here again, certain elements and influences were syncretically combined in the form of hilt we know existed before c. 1600.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your post. I remember the Hasekura adventure and how he acquired the weapons in the Philipines. One of my questions about the so called Kastane he purchased is still being looked at since the blade is non typical and although a quillons style is fitted the blade seems to be much wider...similar in a way to the stone frieze blade. It (the Sendai Museum weapon) looks suspiciously like a Chinese blade.

Regarding the West African Dahomey sword ..or the write up with the weapon... it is conveniently some would say willy-nilly even... given the write up as having certainly bounced back from a deployment with the Portuguese Battle Fleet from Sri Lanka and having influence from their armoury... from the Kastane . This is doubtful since why would a machette tribal sword make such a journey and be given this most peculiar treatment? It appears as a flambouyant idea straight from the head of the author without any proof but as a seemingly fanciful notion.

On the other hand concerning the Cross cut into the broad leaf style of blade; it is plausible that some shades of Portuguese influence in their long association in the region may have occurred and wall art in caves bears this out to some degree. Black Crab swords with similar crosses are further evidence of such liaison but as for the weapons going off on tour with the Portuguese Armada for me it is a bridge too far...That does not rule out a hilt being brought back from such an adventure and possibly being presented to a chief... but that is a very different notion. If the hilt is not a bring back from the Indian Ocean then where is it from?... I have suggested that this is either a home grown carved big cat favoured by chieftains in Dahomey regions or perhaps a Storta Hilt perhaps as a gift. Looking at the skills of the Ivory carvers in the region I suggest that this is the origin. Home grown in other words.

Your inclusion of the South Indian sword from arts of the Muslim Knights is amazing. Here is a direct link in form from Sri Lanka's nearest neighbour even though the style of religion was slightly different the mirroring onto this weapon is clear and one which I would base my next survey... and refer to your excellent addition here. The net result of such findings although I need to show the architecture as wholly linked regionally it would in my view cast serious doubt on external influence and positive proof of the Kastane as entirely Home Grown (exempt the European later blade replacements)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Here I bring on all the architectural details in picture form onto this thread from the other Sri Lankan epic.

First I make reference to #176 above where the weapons from arts of the Muslim Knights are shown thus a search light is shining on the South Indian weaponry shown there by Jim from

Quote"Arts of the Muslim Knight", Furasiyya Foundation, 2008 (p.206, #197). It is listed as Deccani, probably Bahamanid dynasty and of 15th century." Unquote.

Viewers may see a degree of Religious linkage from the adjacent Buddhist cultures and in particular from the main source India. Others may see the fact that The Great Buddha himself is said to have visited the country and that although there are different types of the religion they flowed like a tide in and out with large periods of time in one form or the other.

What the pictorial below shows is the obvious transition of architecture on the Kastane from Southern India and also mirrored from Tibetan weapons either direct or bounced in via Indian form.

The quillons are probably not quilons per se...They are Vajra and important tools and insignia in the Buddhist religion said to have been carried by The Great Buddha into Tibet personally and since the Kastana we know ...was never a Battle Field weapon these thunderbolts or diamonds that they represent were never meant to be for fighting but as badge of rank or court swords. For this reason it matters little that the finials comprising dragon heads are invariably closed on the blade in the narrowed throat and in direct contrast with any European type.

The deity comprising the main hilt is powerful represented by a Lion or Makara, hand carved and studded with precious stones.

The Tail represents another revered creature; The Peacock.

In the handguard we see several creatures including a Humanoid faced crocodile, probably Kurtimucha, in the Robert Hales picture at left where he also notes the provenance of the middle picture as Mysore or Madras.

Other Deities spill down the hand guard onto the cross guard area in typical Yali, dragon or monster form.

The scabbard is resplendent in decorative style culminating occasionally in a decorated ball perhaps a pearl or sometimes another zoomorphic arrangement.

Conclusion. Overall I see no external European involvement whatsoever moreover every inch of the Kastane cries out as Buddhist/Hindu style. The majority of influence appears from India thus it is from there that I suggest the form evolved. Tibet also offers strong reflections but it is not known to what extent each is measured. Except for late European blades being refitted to these exorbitant and magnificent hilts I confirm the importance of this sword as being solely produced in Sri Lankan workshops with no input visible from European sources.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Jim,
I see that the image of the Benin sword belonging in the collection of Mister Rainer Daehnhardt makes its millionth appearance. Should i ever realize this picture would become viral, i wouldn't take part in such promotion as, despite the eventuality of its owner being so proud to possess such famous item, he might as well not be so fond of what has been written about him, for every time such picture shows up together with its text, as it comes in the book, it is tagged with a string of rejections in a mode of unpleasant, even caustic, adjectives and connotations, even occasionally based on misinterpretations, not making a distinction between the role of either book neither post author ... notwithstanding the recurrent assumption that the sword description belongs only to the book author and, as personally opined, its veracity being admitedly susceptible of implausibility, as timely quoted such not being an uncommon phenomenon. For i guess that, the only way for this picture appearance to cease being repeatedly tied to the whipping pole, is to humbly discourage its posting.


-

WOW!
Actually the sword Mr. Daehnhardt has in his book is a most valid example, and serves well to illustrate the apparently numerous examples of hybrid or rehilted instances of these very distinct hilts.

Swords are famously known for being remounted, and married in often incongruent assemblies as they are refurbished with changing hands as heirlooms, trade items, diplomatic hybrids or any number of cases.

It seems to me that this sword is likely one such example. Every author has examples or references in their books that may be reconsidered in later times as new evidence or examples are found. Actually every author hopes and expects to be corrected as others work forward researching their subject matter and text. Most include notices in their forwards in the publication that they are responsible for any errors or material which may be disproven or reconsidered.
Consider that in my case as a writer, clearly most of what I express as comment or observation is quickly critiqued, whether refuted or rebutted and many times even agreed with..either way I think of it as constructive and often helpful in learning much in the manner I describe.

I do not agree that the Daehnhardt example should be censored out of dialogue regarding the Sinhalese kastane, as I have noted it is an example of hybrid in the spectrum of these hilts in other contexts.

The 'Sendai' example of c.1613 in Japan is another example of this distinct hilt form with what appears a 'foreign' blade type. Again, it serves as an example of this hilt in terminus post quem with well established provenance.

You are an eternal cavalier Jim,
Critisizing or rebuting the same reference once or twice doesn't make it an endless target for pneumatic hammer activities :shrug: . You are a writer and i ain't; so i am not in a position to actually consider whether all kinds of critiques are easily absorbable. Not that bringing up the same remarks again and again becomes tedious but ... i say no more :shrug:.

I did like your approach on the syncretism phenomena when attending to the melange of European and African symbology. I am translating a Belgium paper on Congolese colonial swords compiled from various researchers and it all appoints that the perforated cross on the quillon discs of swords introduced by Portuguese would be one of such archetypes.


.

The Sendai Museum Kastane.
 

Jim, your post at 180 states The 'Sendai' example of c.1613 in Japan is another example of this distinct hilt form with what appears a 'foreign' blade type. Again, it serves as an example of this hilt in terminus post quem with well established provenance.[/QUOTE]
************************************************** *********

Salaams Jim, It is indeed the case that the Sendai Museum example is something of an anomaly since the blade is probably oriental; perhaps Chinese as the detail from the thread shows. This is absolutely not Sri Lankan and is a heavy Machete form blade. This is not entirely unexpected in a location like the Filipines where a ship borne weapon rehilted and likely as a ships cutlass type was discovered in the market place by Hasekura ..It is without scabbard... not surprisingly. It therefor joins the story somewhat in the shade since it is a rehilt and out of area at that. It is, however, an interesting diversion.

In fact it is recorded here ...

Japan in Philippine history
By Ambeth R. Ocampo
Philippine Daily Inquirer
10:42 pm | Thursday, October 31st, 2013

Quote"Hasekura Tsunenaga was a Japanese samurai who was received in Mexico, Spain, the Vatican, and the Philippines as a Spanish ambassador in a romantic seven-year journey. He was given an audience by King Philip III in Madrid, was baptized at the Real Monasterio de Descalzas Reales where the Duke Lerma stood as ninong, then was received by Pope Paul V and granted honorary citizenship by the City of Rome.

Hasekura’s last stop was Manila, where he wrote a cheerful letter to his son in 1619 saying he was shopping and preparing to sail home. The original letter is displayed in the Sendai City Museum together with an Indonesian kris and a dagger from Sri Lanka that Hasekura acquired in the Philippines.

(Not in the exhibition are archival documents on the Hasekura mission from the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla written during Hasekura’s stay in Manila: an inventory of presents sent to the Shogun by the Governor-General of the Philippines.)

There is an interesting background description to the Kris at forum on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=kris+kastane by A.G. MAISEY that is essential background reading and from which I have recovered the picture below.

See also http://www.japanartsandcrafts.com/8212.html Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return;

Quote"Sendai City Museum Hasekura reported his travels to Date Masamune upon his arrival in Sendai. It is recorded that he remitted a portrait of Pope Paul V, a portrait of himself in prayer, and a set of Ceylonese and Indonesian daggers acquired in the Philippines, all preserved today in the Sendai City Museum."Unquote

Shown below clearly the tip of the Sendai Museum example showing typical Chinese decoration...on a broad heavy Machete style.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The Sendai Kastane Example.
 

On reflection my impression is of an oriental broad Machete blade of the style Yu Tao Dao better known as a Fish Head or Shark Head Sabre. Here is an example to compare shown below with a white hilt;

The monster fish decoration can be seen near the tip of the Sendai example and compares below with decoration at the throat of the weapon placed by The Late Vandoo (RIP) at thread on another Chinese weapon.

I believe the fish monster is the Makara and support that with detail at http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2...al-makara.html where about 20 examples exist some going back to Chinese cave detai in the 5th Century AD.

The stone Makara carving is evidence of the Makara form on the sendai example etc. The big picture is Chinese whilst the smaller is in Lucknow Museum.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, , once again your tenacious online research amazes me!
I have been going through these old threads, notes and references, and trying to regain my footing in these discussions over the years.

It seems that the manner of investigative study into the history of many weapon forms becoming an often complex, tedious and frustrating process involving many side roads, red herrings and misconceptions. In looking back at the discussions here, we can see many losing patience with the often highly detailed presentations of support and evidence. However, it is through these kinds of discussions that so much is achieved in better understanding the history of these arms.

I had honestly forgotten the nature of the 'Sendai' example, and that it was indeed a Chinese blade with the mythical beast head situated in the blade decoration. It is clearly coupled with a hilt of Ceylonese character, and as noted was apparently acquired as a souvenier along with a keris in Manila near the end of the Keisho mission about 1619.

I think the point of these comparisons is mostly noting the widespread influence of these distinctively styled hilts, whether directly from examples actually of Sri Lankan origin, or variant interpretations which seem to have occurred in many other cultural spheres.

We know that in Holland in the 17th c, numerous hilts on hangers and other edged weapons reflect such influences with mythical beasts and figures that appear Asian , some very much like the Buddhist style lion heads. In these times the portrait of Alexander Popham wearing what appears to be a kastane in about mid 17th century suggests the favor for such exotica among merchants and as status oriented dress weapons.

It is typically difficult, at least for me, to determine exactly what most of these mythical creatures actually represent as there seems to be a degree of latitude in how they are interpreted. However it appears that the range of interpretation has resulted from the artistic perception of local artisans who are fashioning from the influence of the varied forms which have diffused into many areas.

In once again looking to the 'Benin' sword, which is a interesting example of such interpretation, it appears of course that this indirect influence may have had some part in the zoomorphic form of the hilt. As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the Dahomean ruler Glele (1858-1898) did use the lion as one of his leitmotif. It would seem that most of the ceremonial swords would carry such symbolism on the blade rather than in zoomorphic form on the hilt. This is where I think the 'Cingalese' influence suggested by Daehnhardt
derives (interestingly the example with gold lion on the blade Ibrahiim showed has similar blade with mid rib at forte) and the openwork cross and the downturned quillons reflect Portuguese influence.

In both instances, these influences are traditionally applied as they refer to influences long since removed from Dahomean regions.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Ibrahiim, , once again your tenacious online research amazes me!
I have been going through these old threads, notes and references, and trying to regain my footing in these discussions over the years.

It seems that the manner of investigative study into the history of many weapon forms becoming an often complex, tedious and frustrating process involving many side roads, red herrings and misconceptions. In looking back at the discussions here, we can see many losing patience with the often highly detailed presentations of support and evidence. However, it is through these kinds of discussions that so much is achieved in better understanding the history of these arms.

I had honestly forgotten the nature of the 'Sendai' example, and that it was indeed a Chinese blade with the mythical beast head situated in the blade decoration. It is clearly coupled with a hilt of Ceylonese character, and as noted was apparently acquired as a souvenier along with a keris in Manila near the end of the Keisho mission about 1619.

I think the point of these comparisons is mostly noting the widespread influence of these distinctively styled hilts, whether directly from examples actually of Sri Lankan origin, or variant interpretations which seem to have occurred in many other cultural spheres.

We know that in Holland in the 17th c, numerous hilts on hangers and other edged weapons reflect such influences with mythical beasts and figures that appear Asian , some very much like the Buddhist style lion heads. In these times the portrait of Alexander Popham wearing what appears to be a kastane in about mid 17th century suggests the favor for such exotica among merchants and as status oriented dress weapons.

It is typically difficult, at least for me, to determine exactly what most of these mythical creatures actually represent as there seems to be a degree of latitude in how they are interpreted. However it appears that the range of interpretation has resulted from the artistic perception of local artisans who are fashioning from the influence of the varied forms which have diffused into many areas.




Salaams Jim, Thank you for your post.

I would now like to play the devils advocate in regard to the Sendai Museum "Kastane" and aim to prove that this is indeed an early Sinhalese fighting weapon; purely and almost 100%.

References;
A. http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/...ral-makara.html
B. POST # 182 AND 183 of this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post220663
C. The sister Thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14998
D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haseku...a#cite_note-25
E. http://www.japanartsandcrafts.com/8212.html


In following up on the decorative Makara design on the Sendai blade it struck me that there was no difference in the Indian Makara and the Srilankan ...I was further concerned that a blade expert, Hasekura, a Samurai, had not noted anything awry in the blade chosen when he was on the return journey and in the Filipines, Manila where they docked in 20 June 1618 and remained there for about 2 years. After the purchases of the two swords as presents he wrote from there to his son.

In describing the Sendai weapon I must point out that it is correct Kastane form with hilt and vajra quillons as well as knuckleguard and is decorated on a broad machete style blade with a Makara decoration toward the tip. The decoration is typical of Sri Lankan and Indian form and echoed with similar but not exact Makara across the Buddhist Hindu spectrum. The blade shape is not known precisely. The closest Makara resemblance is at the Museum in Lahore as a stone block engraving carved on a solid rock slab. Thus most of the weapon is Sri Lankan with the question of what is the blade? yet to be proven.

Since the decoration is Makara and of the Sri Lankan form it, the blade, although not yet identified must be considered as Sri Lankan. As a samurai and blade specialist Hasekura must have known that this was a blade of some importance and probably not a rehilt.

As a matter of interest most Kastane only appeared in the 18th C and with the Dutch to begin with...and the civil servants or Mudaliers as badge of rank insignia and court swords. Before and during that period it would be difficult to attribute blades since there are hardly two the same and where blades were fitted they were often European and all different. It would therefor not be unreasonable to assume that this habit telescoped back in time on the fore runner to the Kastane in the Portuguese period and beyond where choice blades from different countries were fitted to a style recognizable as Kastane but more austere as fighting weapons. Such blades could have come from a number of places including the Iberian Peninsula and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...p?t=8404&page=3 at post #62 shows a similar shaped blade.

The decoration could have been added in S.E. Asia and transmitted via trade to the Philipines. Since no boundaries are set because the type of sword had by fashion a blade fitted at the owners discretion numerous other forms of similar type would be perfectly suitable in this early weapon including storta and other blades from the orient including Chinese ... There were perhaps no rules and regulations. It was the fashion.

Such was the importance of the weapon that he had it engraved with his personal stamp between the Vajra quilons. (Below). This may well have been because the weapon was related to a question of religion and perhaps linked to his conversion to Christianity. The Catholic conversions in the Filipines and in Sri Lanka may have given rise to this affiliation of ideas and his crest had a cross at the top. It should be remembered that the point of the mission was linked to Japan possibly being a convert to Christianity and the meetings all along were of a religious nature. (See Reference E.)

Regarding Vajra Quilons; Whereas the function on a normal sword is to dislodge the opponents sword by trapping the blade with the Quillons and giving strength to the hilt generally...it may be observed that in Machete style there is little time or function in trying to trap the opponents blade...This is a chopping slashing weapon thus any blows to the cross-guard would be dangerous with such a heavy blade thus cushioning of those blows could be the reason for inclusion on such a fighting weapon. It may be that this is the reason why the fighting weapon has quilons right against the blade narrowed throat...and why such a fashion passed on to the non combat role of the Kastane later.

Note that the early stone Freize (Below)"Kastane" does not have Quilons but this may be down to the Portuguese carver who cannot be blamed for missing out such a trivial item nor for possibly getting the cross guard wrong. The stone carving was something of a hearsay project and done some time after the event. Although slightly unreliable it is interesting for its broad blade and lion head format very similar indeed to the Sendai example.

What appears missing in the Sendai is the scabbard however, I show below three swords from a woodcut in Early Sri Lankan illustrations where similar blades appear (and the immediate words Machete Blades!! is distinctly heard) with no scabbards. (Below)

Although no scabbard is present it could be that no scabbard was worn in the fighting style and shown similarly at the 3 woodcuts and in the stone freize here. Although no exact blade has been yet identified the terrain in Sri Lanka like a lot of South East Asia is jungle and bush therefor a Gollock or Machete blade is probably not uncommon although it can be seen how foreign weapons entered local service with items like the Partisan spear and other styles brought by the invaders that could have displaced this weapon. Neither is it beyond the spheres of possibility that a blade like this could have found its way into the system regionally since by about 1500 trade in the Indian Ocean was dominated by Arab, Indian, Malay, and Chinese merchants, who together used various seafaring craft to transport a spectrum of cargo, from spices to elephants.

It is suggested that the fighting weapon was later Iconised and became a court sword and badge of rank mirroring the old fighting sword in many respects but becoming a dress sword and badge of rank indicator only.

In terms of timeline an interesting hilt of carved Ivory is shown from the V and A as possibly 15th C and Upper section of a hilt for a Sinhalese sword (kastanaya) carved in the form of a mythical lion (sinha). When acquired, it was reported that this hilt had been presented to an ancestoral member of the Weerasingha family by Parakrama Bahu VI, ruler of the kingdom of Kotte (r. 1410-62). Well before the Portuguese.

In summary the Sendai Example may now be considered as all Sri Lankan whilst not including the blade that was by choice decided upon by the owner and perhaps from Europe or India/Asia/China.. and conforms to a decorative blade Makara aspect as well as sporting the correct hilt, knuckle and cross guards with supporting Vajra Quilons of "The Kastane".

Below pictures in no particular order
1. Sendai Museum Hilt.
2. Hasekura Ships Pendant.
3. Sendai Museum blade detail and Hasekura Crest.
4. 3 sketch/woodcuts with broad sword machete detail...no scabbard?
5. Ivory Hilt pre Portuguese.
6. The Pinhao sword stone carving.
7. North Indian Makara carving.
8. Letter from Hasekura in Manila to son. In Sendai Museum.
9. Document with sketch of Hasekura in Rome where he converted ...showing Crest in top right corner.
10. Another North Indian Makara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Continuation and addition to the above Post...A clearer picture of the Sendai Kastane..From https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...la-matchlocks/ which as a matter of interest claims the blade is Portuguese !! :shrug: A point I do not disagree with.

The Hasekura stamp or coat of arms (Inverted) between the Vajra Quilons must have been carried out in Manila or at sea on the way to Japan. Perhaps Hasekura saw this as being a Christian countries weapon... Catholic. Thus he had his stamp placed on it (his stamp contains a cross.) and not realizing the disaster awaiting him in Japan where all his family, supporters and friends were to be executed soon after he arrived because of a purge against Christianity.

To show further the broad regional influence of Makara Design/ Decoration. From Tibet and China in pictures below.

WITH SUCH A VAST DISTRIBUTION THE QUESTION HAS TO BE FROM WHERE DID THE MAKARA ON THE SENDAI ORIGINATE? ...SINCE HERE ARE 10 COUNTRIES IN THE FRAME WITH STONE CARVINGS ~

Makara in the Nanpaya Temple, Bagan, Borneo.
Makara at Sambor Prei Kuk Temple, Kampong Thom Town, Cambodia.
Makara in the north of the Qi dynasty (EC 550-577) in China.
Makara and Kirtimukha protecting the portal of the Chennakesava Temple in Belur, India.
Sculptures of Makara at Candi Kalasan Temple, Indonesia.
Makara in Wat (Temple) ThatPhun, Vientiane, Laos.
Makara of the seventh century AD. in the National Museum of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
Makara and Kirtimukha at the Hindu Temple in Kathmandu, Nepal.
Makara with Nagas, Wat (Temple) Suthat, Bangkok, Thailand.
Cham Naga god coming out of Makara's mouth at the National History Museum of Vietnam.

In terms of a home grown Machete in Sri Lanka there is of course... THE Veecharuval ... seen below as a broad bladed weapon on a black backround and a tip somewhat upturned which could be remodeled with a clipped tip etc...Shown also Falchion capable of being refitted and made to look like the Machete form we are observing in both the Pihao stone freize and the Sendai. I include the sketch of Dutch landing in Eastern Ceylon early in the Portuguese period..and the Machete weapon in the hands of a tribal warrior also very like the Machete style under scrutiny. :shrug:

Another region ....The Malibar Coast has been examined for Makara decorated blades...See below the Ayda Katti or Moplah. In the case of the shorter bladed weapon sometimes called a South Indian cleaver...The sword was without a scabbard, being held in a wide belt worn on the back. Both styles showing the distinctive Makara on the blades...in these examples at the throat.

Could it be that the Sri Lankan weapon shown here in a simple woodcut is in fact a Falchion ...see example.

This is an early landing by a Dutch group in Eastern Sri Lanka where the right hand tribal warrior is holding a similar weapon...Is this the Falchion? A remarkably similar weapon to the Stone Freize weapon.

This picture(kNOX) with RELATION DE CEYLAN has another warrior at right with a similar weapon...

A picture in the hands of a European is shown to compare ...

Further reference showing the Buddhist influence on sword design in some cases as far afield as Japan. The use of Vajra as Quilons on these swords is apparent and widespread.

Below:
1. Japanese Buddha Statue with Sword; Illustrating Vajra Quillons.
2. Kastane for comparison.

Illustration of Vajra Quillons on an Indian Tulvar Hilt. The architecture on the Quillons and on the Knuckleguard is virtually identical to that on the Kastane shown for comparison. :shrug:

It is quite rare to find accurate well preserved examples of Makara and Vajra Quillons on blades and hilts thus when one appears it truly shows the architectural influence across regions when considered in a religious viewpoint in this case Buddhist. This has proved a link to the sword decoration on Sri Lankan Kastane and on other weapons in the region from many sources including Tibet in the case of this example, India and other Eastern countries.

Of special note the Makara present on this and the Sendai Museum blade at #185 springs to mind when considering Makara on blades pointing firmly to this Buddhist influence and away from any European design impact.

Whilst this Purba is 19thC or before many go back to 10TH OR 11 THC or before.

Please note that There are 11 pages of Buddhist Tibbettan Purba religious objects at z.pinterest.com/pin/360076932690957766/ contains about 11 pages of Purba and is worth reading for its content.

12th century. Japanese Buddhist Ceremonial Sword. Quillons Influence.
 

Following on from thread and above I illustrate here the evidence of cross regional influence from Buddhist sword architecture from ceremonial religious themes onto The Sri Lankan Kastane; The Quillons. This is the second statue of Buddha and similar to the figure at #191 previously. Secondary influence can be seen in Phurba and Vajra examples previously.

This clue first came to my attention from a Met Museum annual publication and here from an excellent picture from the web. It illustrated the application of an apparent quillons structure ~ however it has to be borne in mind that this type of quillon and indeed the sword form were not battle mode weapons... neither, in fact, was the Sri Lankan Kastane to which it was design related. The important lesson here is that this design as with much of the Kastane reflected from neighboring regions including Tibet, India and as far afield as Japan in the religious sense and that far from being a European design this was essentially Home Grown and from regional influence.

The Met write up includes the date of this statue. Viz; 12thC.

From https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/44842 Quote"Fudō Myōō (Achala-vidyārāja), 12th century. Japan. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. The Harry G. C. Packard Collection of Asian Art, Gift of Harry G. C. Packard, and Purchase, Fletcher, Rogers, Harris Brisbane Dick, and Louis V. Bell Funds, Joseph Pulitzer Bequest, and The Annenberg Fund Inc. Gift, 1975 (1975.268.163) | Fudō Myōō uses his sword to cut through ignorance and his lasso to reign in those who would block the path to enlightenment. #sword''Unquote.

Viewing Kastane hilts through different eyes brings a differing perspective on an interesting subject. Since the historical meaning is shrouded in history and the zoomorphic licence to create a variety of Iconic creatures is very much up to the specialist artisan working in the Royal Workshops many features on the hilt are changed to meet the multi faceted nature of the sword..and bearing in mind its non battle application and its respected place as a badge of office and rank in society.
Below are some examples of the different styles.

One particular aspect of the Kastane design has been very difficult to picture since it is not on all variants and is difficult to see unless the sword is turned through 90 degrees; I refer to what is known as a humano-crocodile face on the knuckleguard illustrated on this sold item below although it is termed a fanged demon~

I refer to another on Forum Library at

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=48

Fascinating range of zoomorphics, and as you note, fashioned in accord with clientele demands and skills of the artisans. The character of these depicted creatures is indeed reflective of certain symbolisms distinctive to the person wearing the sword in court or parade settings.

The one being held by the gloved individual(post #196 upper left photo) is one that was found, if I recall, in Vancouver, British Columbia, and there was a great discussion of how in the world a Sinhalese sword ended up there around the turn of the century c.1800. There were some entries in I believe a trade ledger of the company there which described a number of 'dragon swords'. As we have seen with the Hasekura example in Japan which seems to have filtered through trade in the Philippines, it has been suggested Spanish trade may have been involved.

Salaams Jim, The Vancouver situation is very interesting although I have no idea how it turned up there..
Although the Papal act gave the Indian Ocean to Portugal and South America to the Spanish (for exploration etc), I know that Spanish ships were also in the region..and discovered the shorter route rather than having to haul via Acupulco to The Filipines etc. How the Sendai item arrived in the Filipines is a mystery and who put the blade and hilt together? ...or in fact if it is original is a further puzzle.

The difficulty attached to the Sendai Museum is what blade is shown there? It has a Makara on the blade which could be either Chinese or Indian..Technically it could even be Sri Lankan. It is a problem as previously discussed and the blade itself is very heavy by comparison to a normal Kastane...and more like the stone carving, ...however, it is extremely difficult to compare a carved item with an actual blade...and whereas the other potential assist via the Leeds museum is a painting with a sheathed Kastane (On The Popham armour)...is thus equally hard to compare. :shrug:

Dutch involvement in the Dutch East Indies has spawned an unlikely transfer of design. The pommel design of the Sri Lankan Kastane appears on the Dogs Head Royal Navy Cutlass; The 1720 Dog head. See the European Forum #1 at~!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23367

and below ~