My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please
 

I received this beauty tonight and luckily my mom saved the auction pictures. I'm totally at a loss as to where this might be from, how old it is, etc. I'm posting it here because it's my understnading that these cast brass handles are 1800s Europe? The blade has the man in the moon, suns, and panoply markings; I think they seem copied, and not original trade markings, or is this not the case? The extreme curvature of the blade and the unusual tip is fairly unfamiliar to me.

Thanks in advance for any help!

--Radleigh

And more photos:

Hmmm...very interesting piece!

OK, I'll take a stab at it. :D First off, it's of the period late 18th-early 19th century, based on the scabbard more than anything. It looks French to me, with the stylized hilt classic for the period and again, the scabbard also in the French pattern. At first glance, I thought perhaps it was a cut-down blade, but now I think it is original. The markings are indeed copies of markings found on hangers and cuttoes of the period, and although not of the same exact quality, still wouldn't call them 'crude'. These markings fell out of favor by mid-19th, so I don't think its of the later period.

Weighing all this, I would say that this is either a small hunting hanger based on the markings found on other such hunting swords (definately not a fighting sword) and resembling many of the side knives seen in hunting TROUSES...or it's just a stylized piece of cutlery made as a "show-off" piece. Still, it's pretty cool. The curved point end could have been used to help split open the game/hide. Note the fuller/blood groove, again leading me to suspect hunting knive/sword.
How long is the piece,BTW?

There are lots of half-moons motifs, including one at the top of the halberd, where it's outright abnormal. The design is european, so perhaps we should look at an european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.?

Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

Thanks for the replies so far! The straight-line distance from the end of the handle to the tip of the scabbard is 14.5 in. Blade length approx. 9 in.

I did mean crude in a comparitive sense, of course. It's quite a pretty piece, and still VERY sharp, so a hunting sort of knife makes perfect sense. I wonder how the motifs of the handle may relate to hunting in some way? I'm actually quite interested in what the handle is supposed to represent. Also, do you think the stylized tip might represent a heart?

M ELEY and everyone, I would be very interested in seeing scabbards and hunting trousses in general of this time period for comparison!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,
I'm jealous, that is a really nice knife. I also think hunting, the hooked part looks to have been sharpened on the inside useful for gutting game I think. Continental European and early 19th Century would be my guess, but it is just a guess. I think if you look to the classical Greek or Roman
myths and stories you'll find the meaning with regard to the handle. Unfortunately the last time I sat in a Latin class was about 40 plus years ago so you'll need someone with a more recent interest in the Classics. Again nice piece.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Radleigh

Whether or not it's a heart, it's also what occurred to me in the moment i saw it.

Isn't that suspension chain somehow 'non operational' for a field hunting dagger ? Doesn't it sugest, as the rest of the decoration, a sort of presentation cerimonial dirk type specimen ?
Sorry if i am talking nonsense :o .


Fernando

Hi Manolo

Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again :o :shrug:

Fernando

Hi All,

Neat piece! To me, the most surprising thing is that it's sharp. I would have guessed that it was dull, given the odd shape, the chain hanger, and all the symbolism.

I'm starting to wonder if those figures on the handle aren't supposed to be Dionysius (or Bacchus) with a satyr covering his crotch so that he wouldn't appear nude. That design has me scratching my head, because I know Greek and Roman mythology pretty well, and it isn't ringing any bells. I'm also wondering whether the design is supposed to be (homo)erotic in some way, or merely humorous. In guessing that it was something to do with Dionysius, I'm going with the humorous interpretation, but I really don't know. Perhaps Samson? I'm missing a clue here.

I'm not sure what to make of all the blade markings, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do sun, moon, starrish things and a fascus, spears, swords, and drum.

Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party?

Hi Fernando,

We can talk over a glass of shiraz (first grown in Iran) and talk about whether all muslims strictly follow the precepts of Islam...:D :D :D Human figures aren't supposed to be shown, but they aren't supposed to drink alcohol, either. That said, I don't think it's Muslim, but beyond guessing European, I don't know what to make of it.

F

Thanks again everyone for your insights. A couple more things to clear up:

The tip is NOT sharp, nor is the interior of the "heart" shape. And the sharpening job definitiely looks intentional and by design; it goes from a very keen edge and gradually thickens to about 2 mm thick. I.e. it doesn't look like a tulward ricasso, where it goes from sharp to dull somewhat abruptly because the blade just stopped being sharpened.

The chain does indeed appear to be non-functional. In fact, suspending it by the chain makes the blade hang almost vertically upside down, because the brass handle is so heavy. Suspending it by just the attachment point closest to the handle makes the knife hang approximately horizontal.

I like the Baccus idea (there do appear to be grapes there) but the guy holding the other man's crotch is definitely a human, as you can see his toes in one of the pictures rather than a goat-foot. My brother-in-law suggested the hanging man could be Prometheus?

Thanks again, and hopefully this additional info will be useful!

--Radleigh

Military Doctor/Surgeons field knife. :eek: :eek: :eek:

What a superb piece.
Its clearly a very specialised piece. I tend agree it is probobly a hunting item but the military type engravings above the sun/moon are really strange. I find myself thinking of those weird axes from Saxony and thinking its possibly region specific. I like the field surgeon idea.
It looks Germanic to me. I thought mid 18thC as a first impression but I've never seen anything like it before so its only gut feelings.

One things for sure. Its VERY VERY nice.

Quite right mate. In a strict interpretation, images of any living creatures are off limits, but some less strict muslim cultures seem to have a more liberal view of this.

What a generous mum
 

What a generous Mum you have there, I watched this auction end and it was listed as a Turkish sacrafical knife from memory but whenever I hear that I take it with a grain of salt. I too would say Trousse as there was a Chinese Trousse that I bought from the same seller and as he deals in arms I would hazard a guess that there was a collection of unusual trousse that he purchased and has sold on.

A lovely piece and unique too I would say, I too saved the images for future reference.

Nice work

Gav

PS I am looking for a loving home where mum would spend all her money on edged weapons for me too.... :)

This looks like a German 19th century hunting knife made in the Renaissance revival style as already mentioned. In this picture of an original 15th century piece although a small image you can still see the superior modelling and casting.

Just thought I had better explain myself a little more. Extacts from "High Victorian Design" 1975

Thanks once again for your responses! I do still wonder if Norman McCormick's suggestion of a military doctor's field knife has merit over a purely hunting piece, mostly because I don't know how common it would be for the panoply marking especially to be immitated on a civilian piece. Does anyone have any examples of this? Or a hunting trousse that exhibits this degree of curvature?

Tim, thank you very much for your detailed information about the artistic style. I'm curious; if a knife were meant to be a "user," would they attempt to match the specific motif portrayed to its usage, or was it purely aestethic? I ask this because I wonder if I could better pin down what the handle is trying to portray, would this imply anything about the purpose of the knife itself?

Hi Radliegh,
You are probably right, find who the figures are supposed to represent and you'll find the use for the knife. It has martial style decor on the blade which might be a clue, I noticed a horses head, I think, so maybe cavalry veterinary surgeon the list of possibilities is longish may be even something quite mundane who knows. Good luck with your search.
Regards,
Norman.

I do agree that the hilt casting may, indeed, reveal much about this fine piece, but the inscribed markings are found on both military weapons and "hunting" hangers of the period. I have a hanger with short blade, marked by the maker/owner with strret address in Amsterdam, circa 1750, that has the sun face, profile of the moon, etc, and as it is a hanger, must beclassified as a hunting piece unless some other provenance shows that it was carried as a fighting weapon (of course, many of these were and thus, it's in my maritime collection). I've seen curved hunting pieces and trouse pieces (sorry, don't know how to post pics- completely computer-challenged :( . Would like to see more from folks who have suggested surgical knife, as this possibility also makes sense...

Following on directly from the last piece of text. The last section may explain the fantastical style to the handle. A piece like this would be something to boast with at a hunting party.

Extremely interesting item Radleigh!! and great discussion on this thread which really has brought some well thought out observations and certainly has piqued my interest. I have done some checking in resources as well, and as always, that curious blade tip seems to be familiar, and of course eludes me!!

I am inclined to agree with the Continental assessment and likely second half of the 18th century, with this seeming to me to be a 'waldpraxe' or chopper as typically found in trousse de chasse, hunting swords or knives with sets of eviscerating instruments. These are described in "Wallace Collection Catalogs" (Sir James Mann, 1962, #A703, 704, p.356). This example of course is a singular item without the usual accompanying implements.

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971) discusses these hunting knives and swords and also illustrates on p.65 some of the interesting blade shapes found in 'trousse de veterinairre' suggesting the closeness of veterinary tools and hunting weapons in many cases.

Hunting swords and knives have long been closely associated with the gentry and nobility of many countries, and it is not surprising to see classical images and allegory in the decorative motif on these. The occult or magical symbols on the blade correspond to the talismanic markings that became prevalent on hunting swords from 17th into the 18th century, eventually in latter 18th century added to military blades. The panoply of martial trophies on this example suggest that latter 18th century date. French rococo style and brass also correspond to 18th century.
There is an interesting reference in Blackmore (p.57) that seems somewhat worthy of note in the neoclassic sense, referring to Charles V of France and his hunting knives, "...to be worn on silver chain while riding through the forest".

The curiously profiled blade tip on this piece seems to correspond with neoclassic and artistic decoration more than practicality, and seems deliberately dramatic to add to the aesthetic effect. It brings to mind the often consistantly seen features often seen on blades that seem to defy any practical purpose or symbolism, such as the deliberately placed notches on Austrian cavalry sword blade backs near the point in the 18th century.

Beautiful piece, and an exciting anomaly!!

Best regards,
Jim

In my humble opinnion, the chain is also fundamental to find this piece's purpose.
Say Radleigh, is the chain band placed at the middle of the scabbard, fixed (welded, riveted), or could you slide it towards the tip ... in a way that it would hang correctly, when you suspend it by the chain ? Are the chain links open or closed (welded) ?
In other words, if this piece can not be (belt) suspended, isn't it hard to conceive that it was made to be used on the field.
Wouldn't it therefore be a domestic implement ... to be laying on a table, the chain being only a fantasy. As Fearn sugested at a certain stage: "Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party ?" Or similarly a presentation cake knife ), offered to a big shot of the period.
Isn't its design rather awkward, blade curvature plus bizarre tip, to be used in animal surgery, or as bleeding fleam, or for butchering ?
... Just thinking aloud.
Fernando

More excellent observations Fernando, and I had thought also of the possibility of a serving knife, to which this does have some resemblance in degree. I also thought of the notes on either surgical instrument or veterinarian tool, and tried to think of possible comparisons. On fishing knives, there is a very nasty looking hooked type profile in the blade tip on
the back, which is colorfully termed the 'guthook'.

Despite these possibilities, the one feature that suggests the hunting association is that these blade markings with magical/talismanic and military style occur only on either hunting or military weapons. As far as I know, no medical, veterinary or surgical instruments carry such markings on the blades, nor of course do items of cutlery or serving implements.

Also, I am not aware of such instruments or serving cutlery typically mounted in scabbards.
The chain seems a decorative element, much as seen on ceremonial and parade swords in certain cases, and suggests possibly presentation, or diplomatic gift type item, as does the elaborate motif of the piece.

I like your thinking Fernando!! :) and like you, humbly present my thoughts. The more all of us bounce this around, the closer we get to an answer.
I wish I could remember where I saw a blade tip something like this..I think it was the falchion or something like it in Stone.

All the best,
Jim

Per my earlier assessment, I agree with Jim and stick with my gut feeling that this is a hunting implement based on the markings and styling. As far as a "cheese knife" or fruit cutter, I would again point out the fullers/blood grooves on this piece (although some fruit can be quite juicy, I suppose! ;)
The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out. Going back to the talismanic symbolism, I always find it fascinating that even in european society, the properties of the "hunt" and magic to call up luck at finding the game combine nicely with these talismanic pieces.

PERSONALLY I USE THE TIP OF SUCH A KNIFE TO REMOVE THE JEWEL FROM THE NAVELS OF DANCING GIRLS WHO DO NOT PLEASE ME. ;)
JUST KIDDING A VERY INTERESTING ITEM CONGRADULATIONS.

LOL!!!

Excellent! You should start a thread with that picture Vandoo!
'Meet the Forumites'

That would seem sensible but a gut hook needs to be very sharp and the inside of the tip does not seem to me to be sharpened for the task; also the extreme curve would seem to make gutting prey very awkward . :shrug:

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...6_2007_1292659

That chain appears purely decorative as the links do not appear to be welded or soldered for strengththening purposes . :)

I'm kind of leaning towards Fernando's point of view .

Hi Rick,

That's why I called it a fruit knife back there. Anyway, there's a way to settle the "gut hook" issue. Try to use it, preferably on something soft and harmless like a piece of paper or a paper towel. Of course, most of us have bought knives that can't perform their putative functions, but if it really can't cut, that might tell us something.

The first thing that tip reminded me of was one of those faux forks on the tip of a cheese knife, and that, combined with the goat head and grapes up top made me think of a party piece.

A couple more observations. One question: is the bound figure a man or a woman? The figure below is definitely male, and while I agree that he doesn't have goat hooves, the satyrs that accompanied Dionysus didn't necessarily have hooves either (Wikipedia Dionysus and satyr picture link; Wikipedia Satyr article ). Alternatively, it could be a bound woman with a man between her legs.

I still lean towards the bound figure being Dionysus or Bacchus. Man or woman, the symbolism on the handle is more consistent with partying than with hunting, in my opinion.

The second observation is the piece may have lasted, simply because it didn't get used very often. That would argue either that it was a presentation piece (thanks Fernando!), a party piece, or a hunting knife that was poorly designed, and hence didn't get used often.

This is a great discussion. Thanks gentlemen!

F

Fearn,
One could imagine a bit of cheese impaled on its tip .

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and well so as this is truly a fascinating piece. While I think we all pretty much agree on its approximate date or period, the question remains whether it was intended for the hunt, or was it a fancy piece of cutlery for serving at lavish events.

I feel that the elaborately profiled point is aesthetically intended, though my mention of the fishing knife feature was to illustrate that deliberate features similar did exist on other sporting edged weapons.

As far as the scabbard, I did find a single example of serving knife, nowhere this elaborate, which did have a scabbard, but for the most part it does not seem these were with serving cutlery.
Also, concerning the talismanic magical markings, Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons" op.cit. p.41) notes, concerning these magical markings on blades, that "...it had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck. On many hunting sword blades therefore, magical signs or numbers are engraved for this purpose".
It is discussed that these astrological or 'magical' signs appear to have evolved from the calendar or zodiacal inscriptions on hunting blades that were relied on to insure good fortune and protection in the often dangerous hunts. Eventually, the gentry, often also serving as officers in military regiments, began to adopt these symbols in similar context on thier sword blades.

With this feature on this blade, it is difficult to imagine why such talismanic protection would be required on a serving knife or cutlery, unless it was simply to reflect that seen on hunting weapons as a gift for an especially enthusiastic hunter. If this was a presentation or gift, as somewhat being considered given the decorative chain and scabbard, this might be the explanation.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

While I lack your knowledge of the decorations on hunting weapons, I'm not all that sure that the images are completely talismanic. Basically, they include a sun, a moon, an image that combines the wind and a compass rose (perhaps the winds), and a martial image combining sabers, spears, drums, and a fasces. None of these are occult, certainly. One could propose that the images are insignia for a military group, some noble or other, or even artistic license.

While I agree that serving knives typically don't have sheaths, my Korean girlfriend recently gave me this nice little korean paring knife, complete with its own sheath. She got it for a few bucks at a local oriental grocery store. She was annoyed by the paring knives in my drawer. :D This is just a counter-example, but it does make the point. We're used to cheese knives coming with cheese boards, but we don't have a context on this knife, except that it was old and well-made.

I'd also note that the sheath on our mystery blade appears to be non-functional, in that it can't be hung by its chain. Unless the chain fittings have slipped forward over the years (a question for CourseEight), I'm having trouble believing that it was a field knife.

Anyway, I'm enjoying procrastinating with this topic. Thank you!

F

Me too Fearn! :)
I forgot about the military trophy panoply, which adds to my thoughts on this being a gift to someone of gentry/ military status, and again, since the markings are not necessary on cutlery....and non functional chain, scabbard, decorative hilt and blade tip.....stronger move toward cutlery....recalling hunting weapon motif?

All the best,
Jim

The scabbard certainly does not look robust enough for the 'rigours' of hunting. ...but there is the possibility that the scabbard is a later replacement. The peculiar tip is definately a riddle, I have searched veterinary, surgical and hunting knives for a 'similar tip ...and have not found its equal.

There is one possiblity that the tip is a 'hoof hook' ...a tool used to remove stones.....from hooves . Since horses were often used during the hunt...a temporary 'lame' horse (with a stone embedded in a hoof) would be a problem ...and would have to be 'walked' back to the stable.

The blade is quite substantial.... I am wondering whether this was re-hilted and re-sheathed...possibly at the same time.

A very strange beast indeed.

Regards David

Hi Jim,

Another thing I just realized is that there's a reason to put a serving knife in a sheath, and that is if you're going to be serving outside, at a picnic or such. Then I thought of the kind of "picnic" that would use such a thing, and that boggled my mind. I tend to lean towards your idea of being some sort of presentation piece, but then we're stuck with the question of why it got sharpened.

Hi Katana,

As for the "hoof pick," well it could be, but looking at a couple pages of google pictures, and I'm not convinced. Basically, the point doesn't stick out far enough, and it's at the end of a sharp blade, which means that levering a pebble out would be difficult (unless you hold it by the sharp edge). I think it works better as a gut hook, although I really think that this tip wasn't designed to take much strain in any direction.

I know! It was specifically designed to fool collectors! :D :D

F

Hi all!

Sorry for my delay in replying; in my absense things certainly have gone somewhere! The middle fitting on the scabbard is no longer fixed, and does slide up and down the sheath. There is a solder mark at the location in the pictures, but this could have been done much later. If any position of the lower chain attachment makes sense, it could go there.


The blade simply does not strike me as a serving piece. I'm totally with Jim on the markings, and given the period of the piece it makes sense that they would be used as was normal in that period, rather as we may see them now.

I would, however, certainly entertain the idea that this blade was re-hilted and/or re-scabbarded. The main problem with the chain is that given the weight of the handle I can't figure out a way to get it to hang right if suspended only by the chain, no matter the location of the fixed points. Maybe I'm just not sure how such a piece would actually be worn, so I can't judge. So I guess the problem may not be the chain, but the handle? Which could have surely been "upgraded" in the movement of the 1850s that Tim's article describes.

I'm enjoying the debate very much! Thanks!

--Radleigh

Neato
 

I was wondering with the spear, sword, axe and drum encompassed by the flag and banners...is it posssible that it is some sort of ceremonial representation...you know...kinda like what we do on the 4th of July?

As far as the tip of the blade...looks like it would open a capped bottle...say maybe, a beer bottle? Let's you know how my mind works... :eek:

Hi CourseEight,

Thanks for the information on the scabbard. I guess the question is that if you think it's been remanufactured, what is your sense of the relative age of the pieces? I won't disagree that it could have been rebuilt, but we're then left with a question of what the original pieces were, and what the current piece was supposed to do, other than be a work of art.

Hi bjeweled,

I was certainly thinking of US coins when I looked at that assemblage of designs, but reading the Wikipedia article on the fasces, the image also turned up in France from 1610-1815 in architecture, often associated with other Roman imagery (like Bacchus?). I haven't gone looking for historical fasces in Germany (I dislike wading through Nazi references), but perhaps the knife is from France?

As for the bottlecap, Wikipedia also kicked up a reference for that, and the first patent for a bottlecap was 1892. I think most of us think the knife is older than that, so it's probably not a purpose-designed bottle opener. I've got to admit, I'd thought of that too. It doesn't look like quite the right shape to pull a cork either.

Hmmm. Maybe it's a crochet hook? :D :D :D

F

Hi
I did have another idea....but thought it would make the knife younger than everyone seems to think. However, I've learnt that my 'new' suggestion would still place this in the 19th C .

What if the 'end' of the knife is a 'can opener', the French produced canned food for the military .....but the 'can opener' was not 'invented until some 30 years later !!!! Often bayonets were used to open them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannery

and from another source....
".....by 1810 Englishman Peter Durance had taken the process a step further and sealed food in tin-plated, wrought iron containers. The soldiers who won the Battle of Waterloo five years later were nourished with the first tin cans.

But they were very thick and almost impossible to open without a hammer and chisel. Soldiers used knives, bayonets or even rocks, sometimes suffering serious injuries.

It wasn't until 1858 that the can opener was invented and having a plate of veg no longer meant risking chopping your leg off......"




Knife....military...19thC.....French ? British ?.....campaign knife.....can opener :shrug: :shrug:

Mystery solved :confused:

Regards David

.

Found this tonight
 

I found this painting tonight, Decapition of the saint Katharina, Bernaert Van Orley (1488–1541).
Although this piece is not as old as the picture, have a look at the guy in the bottom right corner of the painting and tell me if you think it is the same style of side arm? The hilt looks the same length and shape and the curve and fittings are the same too...maybe origins of this artist might point more to orgins of this knife?

Gav

PS, this shows how it was mounted too

Incredible find Gav!!! You definitely have a fantastic eye!
The weapon worn by that figure does seem to have size and curvature similar, though the hilt of course is gold metal but of different profile.

I finally discovered more on the background of this painting, which is a Flemish religiously themed subject based on the martyrdom of St. Catherine.
This refers to St. Catherine of Alexandria, who in the 4th century was condemned by Roman Emperor Maxentius to death by use of the 'breaking wheel' (note the wheels in the background). It was said that when she touched the wheel it broke, so she was beheaded. There seem to be many variations of this legend, and revived interest in her martyrdom began in the 15th century when it was said that she had spoken to Joan of Arc.

The costumes and of course weapons in this painting clearly display the use of artistic license so typical in these times with these subjects, portraying the figures in fashions of the time the painting was done (Van Orley was Flemish , b.1488-d. 1541) . It would appear that the weapons shown, including the unusually wide and short weapon worn by the figure, may correspond to weapons from the late 15th to early 16th century, despite the 4th century event being depicted.

The weapon we are discussing in this thread, obviously not of this age, may well be a neoclassic representation of an earlier form hunting weapon, and the talismanic and military markings reflecting 18th century popularity of these styles.

Now to look for these curious hunting weapon forms from Europe from end of 15th century forward.

All the best,
Jim