OLD OR JUNK?
 

HI GUYS, friend of mine sent me these pictures.
What do you think? Is it old or just piece of junk?

Is there someone have eyes like SUPERMAN?
Oh!! What happened with my friend today?


:confused:

No no, not junk at all! I think this is a very nice Balinese piece. It could do with a clean and etch. I can't tell the age, and I do not know the dapur, although I've seen it before. Maybe not too old? but looks good to me.

Regards,
Emanuel

Dapur / Age
 

Karna Tinanding ?
1900 - pre WW2 ?

A little cleaning and etching would be better to judge the blade profile. I don't think this piece is a junk at all. This is rather a good and rare dapur (Karna Tinanding) with long straight blade and luks 5 or 7 at near tip. One exceptional detail is that one kembang kacang has jenggot and other is plain smooth curve. Fittings are of Balinese style (maybe Lombok). How old...? I'm not sure but assume this could be dated end 19th century. :shrug:
Again, would appreaciate if this blade is clean and etch so that we could comment further.

Hi Rick...
As I know Karna Tinanding is straight keris, but this keris at the top (ujung keris) have 6 luk? :confused:

I believe it's, dapur Pandawa Karna Tinanding. I counted 7 luks. Not junk in my opinion. :)

The yellowish stain to the blade may be due to improper cleaning.

Nice piece .
Clean it up.

I am not sure or the 2nd kembang katjang (telaleh gadjah) is added later on ?
The 2nd lambeh gadjah looks a little different too.
After cleaning and washing the keris will be sure look better, but also spurs of modifications will occur more.

Also in my opinion no a junk!
The keris could be from Lombok and the blade seems to had been in contact with lemon or lime juice

Hi GUYS, that's what I thought too. (KARNO TINANDING).
But 6 luk on top? hhmm :confused:
My opinion would say, M A Y B E....the EMPU who made this blade just copy the original KARNO TINANDING style (let say first pakem in era before) and change it little bit with luk. Because I'm agree with Rick about age (my thought was around 70-80 yrs).
Guys sorry, It is just like teory of reality from A KING who copied a castle of A GREAT KING'S castle.

Is it reasonable GUYS? YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE?

For Emanuel, your eyes it is really like Superman (seriously)!!!.
I'm quite often to get pictures with dirty blades. So, I will show you again another one someday.

And Newsteel, yes it is!!!! blade was found in LOMBOK ISLAND.
I'll bring blade back to forum (of course cleaned condition) to respecting your opinion and all members in this forum.
(I hope that blade come to my hand safe and nicely).

GUYS, THANK YOU ALL



:) :)

[QUOTE=Alam]
....Pandawa Karno Tinanding.......


Hai. Alam....
Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk....

thanks Alam :)

Thank you cahaya. Perhaps you're right. :D

[QUOTE=cahaya]Hi all,

Just a quick note:
- Strictly speaking, Pandawa does not mean five. In the Mahabharata epic, Pandawa was the name of the five Bharata brothers (heroes), sons of Pandhu. They are referred to as: Pancha Pandhava (Sanskrit)/Pandawa Lima (Indo)/Pandawa Five.
However, in Indo, some people do take the word Pandawa to be synonymous with five.

Although the Dapur Pandawa (and its variations) is merely a subset of the dapurs for the 5-Eluk keris, many people in Indo generally refer to ANY 5-Eluk keris as a 'Pandawa'.

- I agree that the particular keris shown above is a 7-Eluk.

- I agree that the dapur on the sor-soran in the picture looks like it is acceptable as one of the forms of Karna Tinanding. However, isn't Karna Tinanding generally restricted to straight kerises?

Anyway, just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Cheers.

Hi..all


you are correct pangeran datu :)

PANGERAN DATU, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS. THAT'S THIS FORUM ALL ABOUT!!! MY BIG JEMPOL RAISED UP HIGHER THAN MY HEAD FOR YOU.
Is there any kos-kos an for rent near by your house PANGERAN DATU? :)

THANKS
bouwneack001.

Hi again GUYS, today the blade is cleaned. Now, It's time for me to learn again :)
Any opinions?

Very nice cleaning and etching job! :D

Aaahhhh...that feels better, doesn't it? :)
I strongly suspect that this keris has had alterations, especially after this cleaning where you can follow the pamor lines. That certainlt doesn't make it junk, but in my eyes it makes it less desirable than it would be in it's original dapur.
Nice cleaning job. :)

The lower quarter areas does seems modified. The two central grooves (kruwingan) seems to be... the pamor looks 'disturbed'. Probably some other dapur type before it is modified into a Karno Tinanding. :( ;)

The dapur as it appears now lacks a certain flow and harmony; the execution is not too impressive IMO. :shrug:

Hi Alam, somehow I tought like you before in first moment I got this dirty blade's pics. (Honestly I'm not good in keris experience but most of my friends in Lombok does very much better than me in this subject).
And then I dialed some mobile numbers to INDO for making sure about this keris
being modified/added or not (also for me to learn).
And Opinions of those numbers was IMPOSIBLE IF THERE ARE MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IN 80 - 90 YEARS AGO JUST BECAUSE FOR TRADING KERIS.
MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IS JUST CAME UP ABOUT LESS THAN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN BOOMING OF KERISES TRADING IS STARTING.
GUYS, once again.....I stil learn, those opinion above was just fresh from few DIALLED NUMBERS.

And I'm sure ....I BELIEVED THEM (they are some good friends of me).
No "CHEAT AND CHAT" in our relationship so far.

GUYS, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING ENGLISH TEACHER FOR ME. NOW I'M OFTEN TO OPEN DICTIONARY AGAIN

;) :)

Great job!!!!

Just love this keris!!!!

AFAIK modifications have been added to keris for even more than 80-90 years, but certainly it is a practice which has increased in modern times. I think it would be very difficult to tell exactly when this keris may have been modified, but it could very well have been within the last 25 years. It could even have been done in the last few years as there are all kinds of methods to add age to make these changes look original to the keris. I am not in anyway implying that the friend you bought this from was aware of these changes so there is no "cheat and chat" implied, but i would be very surprised if this blade's dapur is original. You might also want to look at what you paid for this keris. Was it hundreds of dollars (USD) or thousands? If this is the original dapur it would be a rather rare one and quite valuable IMO. Your knowledgable Indo friends would probably be aware of this as well. ;) :)

Hi David, you might right. As I said, I'm not experience enought for this subject and stil want to learn about it.

Anyway, price I bought just a bit more I guess for this one. Because this keris was my ordered to a friend and He probebly look around whole LOMBOK to find this keris.
But it's oke. EXPERIENCE/EDUCATION about this subject is more important for me.

Dave, price you asked? hhhhmmmmm
:confused: hhmmmm :confused: hhhmmmmmm :confused: hhmm :confused:
Oke, I'll tell you...BUT ssssssssttttt...don't tell to Rick,oke?
(Rp 1,7 jt).

But Now, I have to think sending cost + TAX !!! OHH!!!! OHHH!! HELP? :(
OHH!!! MUNICH is eeeexxpensive Dave!
ALAMAAAAAAAKKK................!!!!! INAAAAAAAKKKK........!!!!!!

Actually i wasn't really asking you exactly how much you paid for this keris, that would be rude. Instead i was suggesting that if you consider for yourself how much you paid that information might aid in determining whether this dapur is original or altered work.
As for the taxes, i can certainly relate...but alas, there is not a damn thing we can do about them...Life, Death and Taxes...i am afraid there is little else...oh, and keris of course! ;) :D

It's oke Dave, this time my English is a bit chaos!
No more little thing else :p
But keris?
Baaaang!!! here they are!!!!!
Clean your self!!!, pick up only! and NO PAYPAL,Dave. :D :D ;)
Address?
Somewhere cross beautiful small villages in LOMBOK.
PUASS!! PUASS!!

:D

Nice collection. Are these all yours or do they belong to your dealer friend? :confused: :)

Hi Dave, some of them are flying already to their new owners.
Some of them as I said, somewhere cross beautifull small villages in LOMBOK.
:)

Hi Dave, the Keris Karno Tinanding is already came yesterday.
I looked again and again and again.......

Dave, according of authentic kembang kacang of this keris, then this keris is included "keris bener".
Kembang kacang on back side (wadidhang -x-) is thick/normal.
So, if this keris was already added/modified, then kembang kacang on back side became thin (thiner), and is hard/almost impossible because how to bend/warp (melengkungkan) the kembang kacang by the time iron is hot.
Dave, kembang kacang is resulted (dihasilkan) from process of splitting-up iron/blade and (dipuntir = English?)
Again, So....if kembang kacang is already thin, then is almost impossible/hard because easy get broken.

Dave, sorry....I tried my best to explain it in your languages :o :o :D
:)
Dave, the blade is ASLIES but the pamor is not my taste :(

Why did the Ganja not take the stain in the same way the rest of the blade did ?
Possibly it is not made from the same forging ?

Yes yes, you right Rick, It is possible of course and also I though same as your when first time I saw it.
Rick, many time I saw this kind of blades in Lombok THAT the blade and gonjo is not same colour and even not same material of iron and here one of them (Pls see pic carrefully).
And now come up 2 opinions of me.
1. It is possible that the gonjo is being added later on...(But not for keris
trading for now,please). We saw together when blade stil dirty.

2. It could b A TREND for keris at that time in LOMBOK that blade and gonjo is
not in same colour/material just to make a little diffrent than others.
(Rick, just my opinion).

I think, second reason is more I believed now.

hmmm.... I wonder what Alan's opinion, Rick. The man knew the field.
Rick, let me try to call him from his meditation's cave. He might want to come up. Ooops! I hope, I don't disturb him, otherwise bad dream come true.

Hi Alan, How are you today?



:)

Brekele, I think you may be confusing me with somebody else.

I do not sit meditating in a cave, and your reference in the other thread which you have running at the moment, to a westerner conversing with Lombok dealers at some time in the past was most certainly not a reference to me.

Yes, I have used meditation as a tool for virtually my entire life, at least for as far back as I can remember, but I do not isolate myself to meditate.

I thank you for your compliment that I know the field of keris, however, my knowledge of keris in general is very slight. I have some small and very limited understanding of certain aspects of the keris, but these aspects are almost never touched upon in discussion in this, or any other forum, or which I am aware. The comments that I usually make in this forum are simply the repetition of either published information, or general knowledge within the Javanese keris community. Definitely nothing special, nor necessarily a reflection of my personal views..

Regarding the difference in the material used in gonjos to that used in blades.

I have no opinion on this.

However, generally accepted belief in Jawa is that there are a number of possible reasons:-

in an old keris, it could be to replace a lost or damaged gonjo, or it could be to replace a gonjo used in the manufacture of a keris intended as the "son" of the original keris; a gonjo without pamor could also have been used to conceal the pamor used in the blade, as a measure of protection for the owner.

In a recently made keris it could be to give the impression that the keris is older than it may appear to be.

In both old and recent keris it could be because the maker ran short of the same material as used in the blade, or forgot to cut off sufficient for the gonjo from the forging before welding in the core.

A number of possible reasons, and no way of knowing exactly why the gonjo material may differ from the blade material in any specific blade.

In both old and recent keris it could be because the maker ran short of the same material as used in the blade, [/QUOTE]

Yes yes, for KERIS MAKER now (empu modern); ran short of same material is reasonable/acceptable. yes..yes I know it, Planing to make 1 kodi keris became problem because of it (kekurangan bahan).

But for empu in old era, ran short of same material for gonjo?
hmmmm....
:confused: hhmm :confused: hhmm..... :confused:

hey, why not.......also reasonable! :o :D :)

I guess the gonjo of my keris also because of that problem :o :o
Oye...oye.

hi Mr. Brekele

can we look a ditail keris, a number 4 from the left (from your collection) ? pic No.1

thnks

Hi Cahaya, sorry if it is too late to answer because a bit busy somewhere to find new inspiration.
The keris you ask is on hold now, So....I have to ask new owner if it's allowed to put detail pictures of the keris here.
But at least I'll let you know for that news for sure. Thanks.

Hi all
In this OLD OR JUNK section I need you guys again, specially those guys with superman eyes.
I found this foto from a person who want to sell his spear. (in webside).
But the foto is difficult to see.
Also if it is possible for information about this spear.
Guys, will you help a boy name Bre? Please?
I dont know how to describe this spear, Is it karna tinanding naga kikik or what? Thank you Guys.

Hi Dave, loooooong time no see, how are you?
Dave, I hope is oke to put the spear in your warung.
Is it oke?
Thanks Dave, I miss you.




:rolleyes: :)

ganjawulung
 

Let me join the sharing, would you mind?

I agree with Alan's opinion. But there was a tradition too in the Mataram era, they use "ganjawulung" or black-colored ganda. So totally different material, and different time frame in the making. And of course, it was in purpose. Keris with ganjawulung -- mainly kerises from the Mataram era and some from majapahit era -- if they were "asli" (original) they should be good kerises. Because, kerises with ganjawulung usually were given by the king at that time. The "asli" ganja, was kept in the king's palace.

Why did the Javanese king or kings in the past they kept the ganjas or gonjos in their palace? Because, they believed that the "yoni" or the spiritual strength of every Javanese keris is in the gonjos. So, everytime the king wanted to give some of good kerises to their family, or even obedient officer in the palace, usually he took off the gonjos, and replace with "ganjawulung". The king desired, that the "yoni" was still staying in the palace, even if the kerises were given away.

But, what Alan just said is correct too. I learn that from my friends -- contemporary empu like Yantono (Alan knows him well of course) - or other keris makers like Yanto, or (one of my favorite Kamdi) and also from Madura like Zulhan (young keris maker, one of the best in Madura).

About gonjos? When the Palace of Solo was burnt, about 10 years ago or so, people found many gonjos in the palace. That proved the "theory" of ganjawulung not false... Solo is my native city, so I know it well, Brekele...

Actually Brekele, it is not my warung, i just moderate here...and drink lots of kopi. :D
I like to think that this forum belongs to everyone. :)
...and i miss you too Bre... :rolleyes:
As for your tombak, if you will read the forum rules (these rules were set by higher authority than myself :eek: ) you will see that discussion of blades currently for sale is forbidden. You must understand that there could be legal consequences with the seller if our opinions here were to talk someone out of making a purchase. Buy the piece and we will be happy to discuss it. The same if it is taken off the market. This is legal protection for the forum, :)

Excuse me, but I am going to step in here and suspend brekele for ten days for discussing an ongoing auction and or posting a picture of said item.

See you in ten days brekele; please read the forum rules carefully. :(