Is it Raja Gundala?
 

Hi Gentlemen, today is my first day to put my post.
Few months ago I bought a keris blade in Lombok Island (without warangka).
Im very surprice because I saw grain of pamor look like flying bird.
Now, my questions is this keris blade Raja Gundala?

my camera is not so good but i tried hard to make pics clearly.
thanks for your opinion.

'Tis in the eye of the beholder.

If you can see it, its there.

Hi there All, here are more pics.
Waiting for opinions from all of you for me to learn about my collections.
Thanks Maisey also you GUYS all.

Goods+nice warangka

Yes, this wood is very beautiful indeed! :)
As for you original question, as Alan suggested, it is all in the eye of the beholder. I generally have a pretty good imagination for this sort of thing, but personally i don't see it here. Still, if it is clear to you then i would say it is raja gundala for you. ;) :)

Thanks CAHAYA, but warangka stil need to repair because there are small holes.

Thanks David, today is first day my keris sold to USA (beside handle) and I'm stil hoping and waiting long line I guess to get feedback.hhmm :confused:
Maybe my keris is not Raja Gundala yet.
Once again, Thanks for support to learn something in your forum. (ENGLISH + ARTIFACT). :)

Hi Brekele
I dont quite see a bird, it looks more like a turtle to me. As Alan said ...in the eyes of the beholder. Nice piece in any case
cheers
DrD

hhmmm :confused: ....Hi DRD, I have a good friend here in Germany. He is a computer's freak. I guess he can help me to show you a line of flying bird on this keris.

But anyway, Who is Alan? Is he dangdut's singer? (I like dangdut).
Sorry Alan, wherever you are. Because some guys keep writing me your name in my subject forum.....and I STIL DONT KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
Please, don't be angry will you?

Hi DRD, Maisey is same as ALAN right?
GUYS, I'm just new member in this forum.
(some name are mixed up, ALAM...ALAN.....ETC).
But Lelang is one of my favourit name. Because this name is familiar to me ;) :)

Sorry Brekele...yes, Alan is A.G. Maisey...sorry for the confusion. :)
A dangdut singer...now that is funny! :D

Hi Alan, sorry oke? :(

hi drdavid, here is new added picture.

Thanks for the outline. Personally it's a bit of a stretch for me and in my hands i wouldn't consider this an example of raja gundala , but as has been already stated, if you see it then it is there for you. I possibly have examples in my collection that i consider to be raja gundala that you not see representational images in at all. Those images will still always be there for me. :)

No, not dangdut.

During my youth a weekend danceband trumpet player, and then later a flautist, but never dangdut.

Dangdut has a certain novelty value, and maybe the first 3000 times you hear dangdut it might appeal---marginally. But I suspect that it has been specifically formulated to kill brain cells. Lots of empirical evidence for this.

As to who I am. That probably depends upon who the other person is. To some people, I'm their worst nightmare come true, to others I'm Gentle Ben.Totally situational Brekele.In any case, no offence taken; you can address me as Alan if you wish, or Maisey, if you wish, but in my social circle, address by the family name without title is usually reserved for people who have known one another for a very extended period of time, or professionally.

Turtle
 

Hi Brekele
here is the turtle I see, enjoy the keris.

Hi Alan, nice to hear from you again, yes..since now I address you as Alan, just same as other guys to address you.

Hi drdavid, thanks for your drawing line, even your added line on the picture is a bit too much on neck,hand..etc.
Now, It's look more like a JUMP DOWN KANGGAROOTLE'S HEAD. But It's oke.
Because I knew you come from place where those kanggaroos came from.
(Hi Alan, I like your words....in the eyes of the beholder :D ;) ).


Hi David, also thanks for your comment. :) :rolleyes: :)

keris blade for comment
 

Hi Guys, I got informations from Indo that this blade had dapur sinom robyong.
Is there any idea maybe for making this blade look better, I mean about material
for warangka and handle. Any comment is welcome.
Hi Dave, how are you today?

:)

edit
 

Hi Guys, sorry for pics. now i tried to make it better.
there is a bit problem with warangka because many of them here.
again, is there any idea to change the warangka and handle?
OR just any comment about this keris?
The keris is straight blade and ada ada in the middle luk's shape.
Is it rare?
THANKS :)

HI DAVID, Thank you for your information about who Alan is.
I hope is not too late.
I tried to delete my bad pictures before but I dont know how :confused:
Dave, just teenie boy who tried to learn PC, I hope you understand. Any info Dave?
Thanks :)

Hi all,

I just had a look at the second lot of pix. IMVHO, even with its wavy spine, I would call it: Sinom Wora Wari, or, at a pinch, Sinom Wora Wari Robyong ( to take into account the Greneng). I could go overboard, and call it: Sinom Wora Wari Robyong Palawija. :)

Just my opinion.

Cheers.

When we attempt to affix a specific dhapur name to a blade form, what we are doing is identifying the features of a blade and comparing that assembly of features to the features specified in a recognised pakem. If the features coincide exactly with those laid down in the pakem for a particular dhapur, then we can say that the blade in question is of such and such a dhapur, in accordance with such and such a pakem.

Most pakems are Javanese, and are only applicable to Javanese blade forms.

It is not correct to apply a Javanese pakem to a Lombok blade, and then give that Lombok blade a designation intended for a Javanese blade.

Nor is it correct to invent our own dhapur names.

To give this Lombok blade a correct dhapur name we would need to use a Lombok pakem. In fact, I believe that in respect of Lombok keris we might be more correct to refer to the blade form as "bentuk", or "angun-angunan", rather than as "dhapur".

The only Lombok pakem I have available is the one provided by Djelenga, and that does not list sinom robyong.

The entire field of dhapur is very, very difficult. If one wishes to define a blade form it is perhaps better to name the features (ricikan), rather than to provide a dhapur name.

Hi Alan, Thanks for your long words and also for Pangeran Datu.
(It takes me 2 hours to open a dictionary to understand it).

I remembered conversations with a friend in Lombok.
And He told me that most of OLD KERISES in Lombok are came/made from JAWA.
And I think, I believed it....because there is no BESALEN (I have no see till now)
in Lombok that can proof those Kerises was made in Lombok.
SO, I guess ....It is oke to jugde "DAPUR" also for Lombok's kerises instead of "Bentuk or Anggun-anggunan" only. Is it right Guys?
(Alan, It's only my opinion, I'm not even junior high school yet for this subject!
and I guess you are already in university same as Alam,David,P.Datu and more other Guys and even soon you became a Doctor's Keris, he...he...he.. :D )

BTW, I heard about a book from Djelenga. (hard to fine)
I wish to have this book to learn more about Lombok's keris.
Hi Alan, Is it teenie boy's budget can reach price of this book?
Thanks.

Brekele, i would not place myself in Keris University just yet. I tend to think of myself as being more in High School as well when it comes to these studies. :)
It has been my understanding that many "Old Kerises" in Lombok were more likely to originate in Bali which ruled over and influenced Lombok for many years. Not to say that a Javanese keris could not appear there as well. But i suspect that this last keris you have shown is neither very old, nor from Lombak, Bali or Jawa. I could be wrong, but i suspect it is a more recent Madurese creation made in the style of a Bali/Lombak keris. Since it is made in that style i think you have dressed it correctly, but i would agree with Alan that Javanese Dhapurs would not apply. :)

Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places.

The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin.

Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins.

Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin.

In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art.

Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century.

Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India.

However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.

Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".

In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book.

In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

I'm still looking, for about 2 years now. :(

Keris books
 

There is one other keris book which is probably even harder to get then Djelenga's. That is "Keris Bali" by I B. Dibia. The content and material may not be as good as Djelenga's, but it is writen in Bahasa. English and French. Alas I only have a photocopy of this one just as I have of the 1993 Djelenga book.

The published (2000) edition of Djelenga's is much more complete than the original, but it uses what looks to be color xerox's as the basis for the photos. A trait which I wish they had gone a step beyond.

Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

Paper and printing quality are similar, but Haryono's book have better photography, graphics and artwork. :)

I'm not shure, but mybe is possible to order Dibia's "Keris Bali" in the little bookshop "Ganesha" in Ubud (Bali)
Look at " www.ganeshabookbali.com "

Sorry: " www.ganeshabooksbali.com" :o

Marcokeris

I can't get that page to come up in my explorer program.

Scratch this. I got it after a couple of tries.

Thanks

Mick


Just placed an order. We'll see if is in stock when they reply.

Thanks again.

Mick


Just got an out of stock message.

Yeah Mick, you're right:- the quality of production of Keris Lombok is less than good. However, it was obviously done on a shoe-string budget, and there is some good info in it. All things considered I personally am not prepared to criticise Keris Lombok too severely for failing to be an artwork in itself.

It depends.
If, say, 'Culture B' originally produced blades in strict accordance with the Pakem/protocol of 'Culture A' and adopted it as their own, then, no problem. One can use the Pakem of 'Culture A' on blades made by 'Culture B', as Pakem A will be identical to Pakem B
If, however, through time, either Pakem A, or Pakem B, or both evolve or change altogether, with respect to one another, then we strike trouble.
One first needs to be able to decide which Pakem has changed (or, indeed, if BOTH have changed). Then one may be able to proceed with some 'historical forensics' to determine the current relativity of one Pakem to the other.

My understanding of the ancient (in your case, Jawa Kuna?) meanings:

Dapur = group/family/tree
Bentuk = shape/form/appearance
Angun-angunan = pattern/template

Given the ancients' pliant nature and penchant for symbolism , I can understand how the above terms may be used interchangeably for general classification (cf. biological taxonomy).

Cheers.

Uhh! The subject is getting hot and harder for me :confused: :)
I better listen explanations from those Docters Keris.

But Dave, the blade I posted is not recently maduranese creation. ( :rolleyes: )
Common Dave!
But it's oke, I guess you and me don't have good eyes like Super(p)man.

Thanks Marcokeris for book's shop informations.
Those books are nice but those CDs are made me skyping a friend in Bali. :)

With respect Pangeran Datu, I disagree with you.

You have put forward a hypothetical argument based in logic, and from a purely logical basis, I am not able to disagree with you.But that logic is hypothetical, and measured against the reality of the keris in differing cultural contexts, it does not stand.

Even within Jawa there is disagreement as to the what the exact features are which should be present for a keris to conform to a particular dhapur, even within Jawa, it is safer to use the features contained in a keris to describe that keris, rather than to use a dhapur designation.Unless, of course, you are able to quote the pakem, thus you would describe the form as, for instance:- "sinom robyong, in accordance with (whatever) pakem".

When we move into a different culture, and we look at a keris which is not a Javanese keris, but that keris contains features that are also able to be found in a Javanese keris, then it is clearly erroneous to describe that keris from Sulawesi, or Sumatra, or Lombok in terms applicable to a Javanese keris. It is not a Javanese keris, thus it cannot be described as one. The names of the various ricikan in keris from various areas are often different from the names used in Jawa for those ricikan. Similarly, the names used to describe the keris form are often different from the name for a Javanese keris containing the same features, but with different names.The names of the various features , or ricikan, in a keris blade have everyday meanings, for instance, a "sogokan" is a long stick that you push things with, a "blumbangan" is a pond, and so on. These names of the keris features make sense to a Javanese person because he can see the connection between the name of the feature, and that thing in the real world. However, to somebody in another culture, using a different language, the Javanese names of the features could well make about as much sense as they do to a native English speaker. Thus, you will find that although the features in keris blades across several cultures could all be the same, the names of those features will sometimes vary.As the names of the features (ricikan) vary, so do the names of the forms (dhapur) carrying those features, and the word used in a local language to describe the form itself is no longer a Javanese word, but a word that is intelligible to the local user of that word.Thus, Lalu Djelengga, being from Lombok, uses (I guess) a Sasak word instead of Indonesian (bentuk) or Javanese (dhapur) when he is referring to keris from Lombok.

In respect of word meanings.

In Modern Javanese "dhapur" means "shape, form, design".

The word "dapur" does not exist in Javanese, it is an Indonesian word that means "kitchen".

The word "bentuk" is an Indonesian word that means "shape, form"; this word does not exist in Javanese.

The word "angun-angunan" is a problem. I really do not understand this word, so I am assuming it is a Sasak word which is a synonym of the Indonesian "bentuk" and the Javanese "dhapur", which is the context in which Djelengga has supplied it. In Javanese "angun", or "angun-angun" can mean a bull or it can mean wild; it is not a word found in Indonesian. Angun, angun-angun, and angun-angunan appear not to exist in Old Javanese.

I do not believe that we have any need to go back to olden times to understand what a modern author wrote in the 20th or 21st century. Lalu Djelengga gave us a choice of three words, all appearing to mean the same thing:- "bentuk" if we are speaking Indonesian, "dhapur" if we are speaking Javanese, or "angun-angunan" if we are speaking Sasak ( I assume). What he actually presents is a heading to a series of matrices which form a pakem; this heading reads:- NAMA DAN UNSUR CIRI (RICIKAN) BENTUK/ANGUN-ANGUNAN (DHAPUR).

Within the pakem supplied by Djelengga the keris form "sinom robyong" does not exist; the form "sinom" does, but not "sinom robyong".

Personally, I try to steer away from using Javanese words when I am talking about keris in English. Yes, I know, it can be very impressive to throw a whole heap of dhapurs and condong-leles and jejerans into one's discussion, if for no other reason than to remind people of one's erudition, but why use a Javanese word when there is a perfectly good English word, meaning the same thing, that everybody will understand without thinking? Why not use "form" instead of dhapur? Why not use "handle" instead of "ukiran" or "jejeran"?

I think I could precis my position on this matter by saying that I am of the opinion that we should try to maintain a degree of consistency in keris terminology which reflects the area of origin of the keris concerned, thus we would use Javanese terms for a Javanese keris, Sasak terms for a Lombok keris, and so on. Alternatively, we use English words which clearly convey our meaning to English speakers, and only use a Javanese/Balinese/Sasak word where we do not have an English word available. The only keris word I can think of that I do not have an English word available for is "gonjo".

Thanks Alan, for this post on language as applied to the keris. It is really a facinating subject. I tend to agree with you that English, when possible, is a better choice in this context, though i actually prefer "hilt" to "handle". ;) :)
Still, i am interested in learning traditional terminology whenever possible so i don't mind when people use such terms as long as they are willing to explain them. But there does seem to be a general "lazy" acceptance among keris collectors to default to Javanese terminology regardless of the origin of the blade. I agree that this is inappropriate.

Perhaps, Brek, you can share with us exactly where and when you believe this blade originates. Frankly the eyes of a "superman" has very little to do with such opinions. Photographs are never a very good way to judge a keris and people can be very easily fooled by them, even Superman :D . Also, smiths in Madura have become quite expert not only at mimicing other styles and time periods of keris making, but have great skill at making blades look old. I am basing my suspicions on this knowledge and the feeling that this keris doesn't look quite right to me in material and finish to be from Bali or Lombok. I could very easily be wrong about this, as there are too many factors out of hand and i am simply unable to judge accurately from an internet photo. But i am sincerely interested in hearing why you are so sure my suspicions are incorrect. How old do you believe this keris is and where was it forged? :)

Yeah, "hilt" is possibly more correct than "handle", when used in connection with an edged weapon. I guess you could probably put my preference for "handle" down to a bit of reverse snobbery.

:)

Dave, yes of course i can share with you about where and when i believed this blade is ASLIES (ASLIES=ASLI+YES). Sorry for using my own word, because your word ORIGINATES wasn't in dictionary.

Friend of mine brought this blade by the time Lombok's coffee morning is not finish yet. The blade was dirty, first exprescion in head was stranged about this blade and then suspicion for few seconds. About 2 minits later my feeling was changed and starting to belived that the blade is old (80%).
And then someone clean that blade.
After cleaned then of course i believed the blade is old.
Dave, i looked again...from Pasikutan, i guess this blade is tangguh nom-noman
(Bali).
Also according to blade's material + feeling of my NEW KNOWLEDGE about keris.
(Finally, surely answer is came out by other keris forum in Indonesia).

Dave, i knew some of keris dealers from Madura based in my hometown Surabaya (Jawa). I hang out with them and learn.
So, I knew their blades Dave.
Many blades are good too (hi...just my taste).

BTW, Dave....honestly i like to read words of those doctors keris .
but you just broke them up :mad:
Ya, It's oke. I knew you are the bos in your own forum beside Rick.
:)

"Originate" means place of origin; where is it from? Do you think this keris was made in Lombok, Bali, Jawa....? You say that it is "from Pasikutan", but "Pasikutan" as i understand it is a form of measurement, not a place (from the tip of the finger to the elbow), so perhaps this is just a mistake you made in translation. I don't think we can successfully apply the concept of tangguh to this blade, especially if it did not originate from Jawa. Still a nom-nomon keris would be considered by many to be a relatively recent keris, wouldn't it?
As i already stated, you might well be correct about this blade, and you are certainly welcome to your opinion. I still remain suspicious, especially given the very unusual blade form, one i have never seen before with this mixture of features. This is a tendency i have noted in some modrn keris making, combining features to form new "dhapur" which have led us to a major question in this thread: What do we call it?
I am a bit confused by your last remarks. I am glad you are enjoying "reading the words of the doctors keris" , whoever they are :rolleyes: , but i have hardly done anything to discourge the conversation in this thread. You posted these keris and i have been addressing my comment to them in an attempt to answer your questions, but the wide range of discussion here, especially tangents on language and usage, have been welcomed and encouraged by me. I have done nothing to break them up. I am sorry if you do not like or disagree with my personal observations, but they are what they are. If you have any problems with my moderator skills please feel free to discuss them with me in private messaging. :)

Ohh no...!, Dave please ...this is too long for me to understand.
Your words is difficult.
I'm not good in English, please use simple words :( .

Sorry Brekele, i will do my best. :o :)
Simply put, i still think this last keris you have posted is a fairly recent one. You do not. That is OK, we all believe what we will. :)
I am still curious where you think this blade was made. Lombok, Bali, Jawa, Madura...??? Pasikutan is the length of the keris so it is not from there. :)
Tangguh is a system meant for high level Jawa keris. I don't think it can be properly applied to your keris. Even so, Nom-Noman is a fairly recent tangguh.
When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Ask yourself (don't tell us ;) )how much you paid for it.
I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings. :)

When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem?

Dave, I told you before, I was also suspicion when first time I saw it because never see keris blade like this before.

If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money.

Dave, I bought this blade from a friend who dont know much about keris. But he know if a keris is old or new, that's all. He is more a keris villages hunter in Lombok, And sell keris he got to those local keris collectors/big dealers.

Ask yourself (don't tell us ;) )how much you paid for it.

Of course I won't tell you again, no more mistakes for twice.
And I do not need to ask my self for price of this kind of blade, because I deal with a right guy and fair/perfect price.
Now, this keris is sold for fair price also.
Actually, there are two pieces of this kind of blade from my friend. The other one is smaller also with ada ada's luk shape. He got those blades from a big balinese (farmer) family in Lombok.


I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings. :)[/QUOTE]

Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you.
:)

Dave, sorry for my English a bit confused you.
I try to correct it.

It's not from Pasikutan but according Pasikutan (i hope better now).
Pasikutan= showing character of keris in every era/tangguh.

Hi Alan, how are you today? :)
Hi P.Datu, how are you today? :)
Hi Alam, long time no see? Are you stil meditation or learn those malay's song?
hmmm...Siti Nurhalisa had good songs ;)