A Berber saber?
 

Just picked this up on ebay; listed as a Nimcha, I believe it's a Berber saber. It doesn't have the pierced pommel I've seen in some illustrations, but that could be a tribal difference. Is anyone familiar with this particular style of hilt? The blade is almost certainly European, though apparently has no markings (at least none were mentioned by the seller).

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../229417275.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../229417280.jpg

This could be SEA? shame there is no scabbard.

SEA? As in South East Asia? The wire wrap is reminiscent of a Bousaadi knife, but I know that's not unique, as many curltures use the same method...

I am probably wrong but this just struck me as South East Asian rather than North African. Something about the way the forte is ground with a curve and the whole curve of the weapon, handle decoration and shape. Just a feeling. A scabbard would help. :shrug:

S.A .
 

I THINK IS FROM SOUTH ASIA TOO, WHEN I SAW THE SWORD IN EBAY WAS THE FIRST I THOUGT. THE BLADE SEEMS LIKE IT WAS PART OF A MILITARY SABER?
REGARDS
CARLOS

Military Sabre
 

A Berber sabre; the blade looks ex military to me.
There is the feel of a Nimcha hilt there and the square and nail work doesn't quite strike me as S.E.A. :shrug:

Berber swords are classically characterised by 2 features:
1. pierced handle
2. reverse tip
Like that:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=91
Sometimes, one feature may be different, but when both are absent, I would look for the origin of this sword somewhere else.

Groovy pics. This is getting interesting. I still say the handle is not N African, the decoration is also far from N. African. Just look at how dramatic the curve is at the forte. I would also say that by N. African swords this has a rather primitive or even what could be seen as crude construction and decoration. I hope that does not upset anyone. The decoration looks like the far eastern islands of Indonesia to me.

Hmmm, does anybody know where checkerboard patterns were used as decorations on sword handles? That may provide a clue.

Btw, these two are owned by Adam Rose. One has a regular tip, and the other has a very slight concave tip.

I'm not saying that this is a Berber sabre.
I only point out that this is most likely a military blade remounted a la my example of a Berber sabre .
I also mention a passing resemblance to the Nimcha style hilt.
That does not mean that it is a relation; only food for thought .

Finally, I would like to see examples of this style of checkerboard and nail inlaid decoration in a Indo/Malay sword hilt if anyone has seen one; for I have not. :rolleyes:

No luck on the hilt yet, but I did stumble across this version of a nimcha on the Therion Arms page. The blade is listed as 'napoleonic', and at 24 1/2" is identical in length to the one I just bought. Due to the poor angle in the pictures posted by the seller it's impossible to be sure, but it looks awfully close to me. Not also the slight humpback profile to the hilt, peraps due to the profile of the tang? Anyway, more food for thought.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../229605778.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../229605776.jpg

PS -- I hope I didn't violate any rules by posting these pics. I did give credit for their source, and the item in question was already sold.

This hilt is from A. G.Van Zonnevelds, Traditional weapons of The Indonesian Archipelago. Okay it is not the same shape but does show the same decorative materials and technique. One could also argue that the shape is as similar as the Nimcha. In the aforementioned book swords from Timor like the hilt shown often had European blades. Also in this book pictures of other swords from Timor are all constructed in this more simple manner. I am sure I have some better pictures which I will add when I find then. I also want to add some pictures to the rust removal thread but can a find them :mad: Maybe if I stop look so hard i will find what I want right in front of my eyes.

Hi all! me too i was looking at this beauty (congratulations Fenris!! :) ) and i was thinking that is a north african sword. Maybe i'm wrong but the decoration on the handle remember me some decorations on maroccan or north african matchlock guns.

My twoo cents...

I am in accord with Rick on this one, I also believe this to be most likely from Spanish regions in Morocco, and as he notes the blade is military. The blade appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry example as occur in use on the 'Berber' sabres also being shown in the posts here. Although these interesting sabres have generally been accepted as Berber and probably from Moroccan regions, there is some disagreement to that attribution. These typically occur with the M1796 blades, which are typically highly profiled at the tip, although other sabre blades have been seen and not all carry the dramatic profiling. I remain inclined to believe they are indeed from Spanish Morocco.

I think this interesting variant posted by Fenris reflects traditional Mudejar influence in the studded checkerboard motif, though as noted, this motif does seem atypical on weapons of these regions. It seems of course that I have seen something similar, but as yet have not located it. In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork" (Simmons & Turley, N.M.1980, p.5), the authors note ornamental nail heads or bosses (=chatones) liberally applied to doors and chest, and that the "...Moorish distaste for empty space", "...led them to fill large door panels with symmetrical placings of decorative nail heads". Although this characteristic describes quite early application of this motif in medieval Andulusia, the style of course carried into the Spanish regions in Morocco and is reflected in degree in the material culture there.

The wire wrap on the grip of course reflects that practice on the sword hilts of Arabia and India, deriving from the same often applied on Persian shamshirs. The knives of Bou Saada adopted that characteristic in the same manner as appears on this sabre ( the term nimcha of course colloquially presumed), through trade influences as that was in important stop in Algeria on caravan routes.

The curved profile of the blade root to meet the ferrule of the grip is much the same as on the 'Berber' sabres.

The inclination that often brings the recollection of SEA probability in many of these weapons from North Africa I think derives from the fact that many of the influences on those weapons also derive from Arab trade, that of course carried in degree many Moorish features. That is of course even more prevalent in Philippine regions which were colonized by Spain, and those influences certainly diffused in the environs through trade, warfare and varied interaction.

I hope somebody can find an example of the 'checkerboard' mofif elsewhere, its drivin' me nuts trying to find the example I saw!!:)

All the best,
Jim

So far it is 4-1 that are still a different shape and do not display decoration, construction and forte arrangement similar to the starting piece. To me we need pictures of other examples to be sure of any opinion.

Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion.
Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison! :)

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

Thanks, Jim. As a relative newbie to being a serious collector (as opposed to just being a dabbler who bought whatever was "neat") I know I have a lot to learn. It's one of the reasons I've decided to focus on a much narrower geographic area for the majority of my attention.

As to the blending of European military and ethnic arms, well, weaponry doesn't develop in a vacuum, and seeing examples where native craftsmen have taken outsider's weapons (whether from an invader's hands or an importer's cart) and made them their own is just one more element to be considering in studying the evolution of weapons. For example, prior to joining this forum I was aware that wootz steel was prized, but had never heard that there were some European blades that were even moreso. It's kind of nice to be going back to school after all this time. :D

Hi Fenris,
For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons! :) Thats the fun, learning together.
Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples.

All the best,
Jim

Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../230503780.jpg

Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them?

I'll post more pics in a while....

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration.

I think the similarity here is a matter of form following function. For one thing, the blade on mine is attached to the hilt with one or more rivets/pins, as opposed to the resin method that is more common in SE Asia. The pistol-grip curve to the hilt is simple ergonomics, especially since the hilt on my sword doesn't flare open in both directions as is common on SE Asian blades.

Aside from the checkerboard pattern, which no one has identified yet, the greatest similarity I've seen as far as overall execution has been the Bou-Saadi knives; a slot cut for the tang half the length of the hilt, pinned and bound with wire.

As promised:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../230571598.jpg

The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?

I am with Tim on this one. SEA appears more likely, just the hilt with its brass (not silver) wire feels that way. I will add more reasons why I am leaning towards SEA soon.

It seems that many times when identifying ethnographic weapons, especially with variations and hybrids, it is often the inclination to head toward ones predominate field of study and to rationalize classification in that category.

While my inclination initially was toward a North African, specifically Spanish Saharan attribution on this weapon, I had not considered the suggestions of SEA possibility as this was largely outside my field of study.

In reconsidering, especially after review of the reference used by Tim ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago", A.Van Zonneveld, Leiden, 2001), I must revise my views on this piece to agree that this does not appear to be North African.

The key to the likely attribution of this weapon should be focused primarily on the hilt shape, rather than superficial decorative motif, and in reviewing the Van Zonneveld reference, there are numerous hilts throughout Indonesia which reflect distinct similarities to this one. In addition to referencing this book, Tim brought up some good points in the importance of considering materials and construction in examining this weapon, as well as the fact that in Timor, the nail motif occurred and foreign blades were often used.

While viewing various hilts in this book, although there were many extremely similar forms shown, one of the closest profiles I could see was a 'kabeala' from Sumba (p.59, fig.171). The wire wrap, agreeably a superficial element, especially in the case of refurbished weapons which could be applied in virtually any regional instance, can be seen illustrated in Sumatran examples (p.53). As mentioned, the nail motif as well as the geometric application seen in the Timor weapons present compelling interest when considering the checkerboard motif, despite the lack of examples with which to compare.

It is worthy of note that another of these 'checkerboard' motif hilts has been discovered, with the hilt remarkably similar aside from two notches at the top.
Hopefully we can get photos of that one as well, and continue research for other comparisons with emphasis on the Indonesian sphere.

All best regards,
Jim

THE CHECKERBOARD PATTERN IS PART OF THE KERIS CULTURE I FORGET WHAT THE SYMBOLISM IS BUT CLOTH WITH BLACK AND WHITE CHECKERED PATTERN IS USED AND DOES HAVE SOME MEANING. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO IS MORE KNOWLEGABLE ON THE KERIS WILL BE ABLE TO COMMENT. A NICE LOOKING INTERESTING SWORD.

Are the red 'squares' inlay ? It seems that (if they are) they are secured by the nails ??

Very nice, interesting sword.....I especially like the blade :)

Ive seen such geometric nailed inlay work on butts of Algerian /Morrocan rifles.

Usualy done in ivory sometimes bone.

Looking at picture the inlay looks like dyed bone?

Spiral

I Just noticed in another current sword ID thread,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4117

another fine example of the classic chequer booard pattern used in North Africa. {In this case amongst the leatherwork, on the lower wide piece.}

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=17912&stc=1


Spiral

A similar sword just ended on eBay. Note the leather sheath:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...5620&rd=1&rd=1

Yeah, I tried for the second one (it was sold by the same dealer as the first one; I asked, but they had no idea of the provenance on the swords.

What with the consensus leaning away from the Middle East and towards SE Asia, I couldn't bring myself to bid as heavily this time and someone else bought it. Hopefully someone who frequents this borad so we can see better pics.

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

Now I shall perform the dance of vindication ..... :D
Thank you .... :p

So, I let the one with the definitive evidence slip thru my fingers? @#$%$##@$%^@! :mad:

Just for my edification, what was it about the scabbard that convinced you as to its provenance? I didn't see anything that couldn't just as easily have been made in the Phillipines, or Mexico for that matter. :confused:

OK, Rick! "Land of a Thousand Dances"!! boogalooo!!! :)

Anyway, I'm way confused here. How is a loosely compared scabbard the key identifying factor in observing a weapon? While it is true that leather scabbards are key in North African weapons, we beg to ask what an Indonesian style hilt is doing in North Africa. Certainly we have always recognized the vast scope of trade and the diffusion of weapons via those routes, however within certain cultural spheres the locally preferred hilt forms prevail, and would not likely develop multipally.

I know that I was drawn initially to North Africa as well, but I had not yet considered Indonesia as the weapons in that sphere were basically outside my field of study.

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done :)

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I wish these could turn out to be Berber! That would vindicate my original suggestion and prove this old radar of mine was still in working order, and I too would be dancin'!! :)

My praise might reflect that I had only been awake say 30mins. That is right that the scabbard does look as is it could well be from the PI or Mexico/South America. Perhaps it is not North African. I only know that many blades of several forms from North Africa come with this sort of scabbard with that flap bit. It is possible that the scabbard has been put with the sword it does look rather like a machete scabbard. Am I allowed to change my mind back to my original thoughts. An Iberian influence would not be out of place in Timor and there abouts :D .

Hi Jim, just funnin' :D .
I'm just pretty convinced these are not SEA. ;)

The scabbard does not look at all like SEA work or Philippine.
All the grommets used ?

Me too Rick!!! :)

That scabbard sure ain't SEA, but that hilt by the same token seems more and more Indonesian, and the hilt is the key here. We know the blade is probably British M1796, and the scabbard is ???? :confused: so we have to keep looking for a comparable hilt form, and most the examples that correspond seem to be in Van Zonneveld.

All the best,
Jim

In order to keep the reference handy (for when it drops out of ebay's system) here's the scabbard on the second sword, along with a closeup:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151.../231936055.jpg

Keep in mind this did NOT come with the sword that started this thread, but with a second example with a similar hilt.

Good point Jim, Id missed that, perhaps in that case, we should look at the Dogon for a possible North African insperation to such cheqerboard designs though? whether by diffusian to surronding tribes or not?



To quote from.. http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Dogon.html


"The Dogon are best known for their extensive carving of masks and wooden figurative art. The primary colors used by the Dogon are usually red, black, and white, and popular patterns include spirals and checkerboard motifs, both of which can be traced to their origin stories."

I assume these handles were intialy dyed red & black? that how it appears, to my eye?

The origin of this pattern in the region is reputadly from one of the 4 anscersters of the tribe.{The Nomo.}...

"Often depicted is the blacksmith Nommo, usually with a horse. He was the first to descend to earth in an ark or by means of a rainbow, bearing seeds and he laid out the first fields for agriculture. The chequer board patterns are associated with him and those fields"

from.

http://artworld.uea.ac.uk/teaching_m...n/welcome.html

So that combined with The grip shape could be an evolution or hybrid of North African grips, Nimcha, Berber Saber, Bou Saadi. Would perhaps mean North Africa shouldnt be ruled out?

It certanly visualy would sit comfterably in a North African weapons collection.

Spiral

I see that is a belt loop on the scabbard not a flap, The stitching and leather work does not seem to me to be native to N. Africa. I see a Spanish/Portuguese machete style. Spanish Morroco? I do not think the Iberian influence in SE Asia can be ruled out either. It does still not fit a nimcha just as much as something from SE Asia.