Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)
 

Hi Wayan,

Welcome to the forum! You have some very nice kerises and hilts! Please do share more pictures in the future, especially when you acquire new ones. :)

This forum is a great place to exchange views and knowledge on the subject of keris and kris (the latter being the term used to differentiate the Moro counterparts from the Malaysian/Indonesian counterparts). But one thing the older forumnites have learnt here is that there are many views, some views are "more right" than others, some "more wrong", depending on one's point of view and cultural background. It's not possible to have everyone agree to one point, and so, we learn to breathe in deeply and "let go". :) And then, we start on another discussion. At the end of the day, I guess what we get out of these discussions depends on our own process of filtering, reasoning and acceptance/rejection. But don't forget to make friends too. :)

I found an internet version of the book "Swish of the Kris", an old out-of-print book on the Moros and their feared krises. Have a read; I got hooked and finished the book (not very long) in 2-3 evenings. :)

http://www.bakbakan.com/swishkb.html

I have only 1 Moro kris, which is not a 'pretty' kris, but a trophy kris with a 28inch blade, presumably taken off the body of a dead Moro Datu killed in battle (hmm... reminiscent of Puputan...).

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Thank you very much Kai for the link to the book!!!! :)

I dunno Kai Wee, you may not think this one is too pretty, but it does seem to be pretty special. It has wonderful talismanic symbols etched on the blade and is that not fossilized elephant molar as the kakatu pommel. :) The whole ensemble also seems to be complete and original. It's a weapon i would love to have. ;) :)
Your other comments are wise and well stated. Thanks :)
Thanks for the link as well. I've found links to this before but only skimmed it. Perhaps this will encourage me to read it all. :)

i never get tired of looking at that kris, kai wee. should you decide that she deserves a new home...

Hey....I thought i made that thinly veiled implication first...! :D

Erh... let me ask the kris... :)
.
.
.
[After a little while...]
.
.
.
sorry guys, he said he's happy staying with me so far. so, mayber later... :D

*sigh* :)

nechesh,
oh, you already did that? lol, didn't realize... wait a minute.. there's a beauty at the back of the line that i believe is waving at you. i'll save your spot :rolleyes:

Thanks Ron. :rolleyes:

fantastic kris
 

Thanks for posting that pic-certainly if you ever put it up for sale, let us know (the smiley faces don't include one that is drooling, unfortunately!) That's one of the finest Filipino/Moro kris' I've ever seen.

I have a modest Filipino weapons collection with many lantakas (to save digits, will admit that some may be Filipino and many not), a suit of Moro tortoise-shell body armor with brass helmet, and a handful of edged weapons. A couple of the major items came from descendents of ca. 1902 US Secretary of War Elihu Root, who received them as gifts from military officers who had served in the Philippines.

I visited the Philippines many times while on duty in the Western Pacific in the Navy, and acquired an appreciation for the culture and art of that country.

In case this is not widely known, prior to about 1973, the Negritos were allowed to set up souvenir stands right on the Subic Bay U.S. Naval Base. They sold some new but very well-made native-type primitive weapons, which unfortunately were used by sailors in two mutinies (a.k.a. riots) aboard US aircraft carriers in the early 1970's. This led to the Negrito souvenir booths being evicted from the base.

One more question about my kris
 

Blu, I'm posting here not to hijack but as a question related to the pix of your kris posted in this thread. I notice that the blade of yours, shown in your excellent picture gallery, appears to be all one-piece.

A comment Nechesh(?) made about mine had to do with one-piece vs. having a separage "gangya" which term I did not understand. Another post seemed to clear it up with a pic of a kris blade with a separate "top piece" close to the handle which appears to be welded or sweated on. I guess this is the gangya?

Anyway, your captured kris, which appears to be pretty well documented (at least I have no doubts about it) seems to have an all-one-piece blade as well, and yours was captured in 1908.

Can I get a clarification from someone on the significance of the separate vs. one-piece blade issue? Where the issue seems to have been left, as I recall, on the other thread, was that a one-piece blade indicates post-1930 manufacture. But your pre-1909 one-piece blade seems inconsistent with that demarcation, so what's the real answer here?

Sorry for my ignorance of Southeast Asian edged-weapon terminology.

Well, this really may be a point of contention. The 1930 line is one drawn by Cato in his book Moro Sword, for bettter or for worse the only specific book on the subject to date. I believe we have seen exceptions to this rule and i believe we even had a recent thread on it showing some documented examples. I took a close look at Blu's kris and really can't tell from his photo whether or not a seperate gangya exists (this is the same piece that is usually called the gonjo or ganja in Indonesian keris). I have an example that is so well fitted that i didn't see the seperation line for years until i gave the blade a cleaning and etching. Even so you need to magnify the area to see it. It can be like that on really well made blades. So, it hard to tell if Blu's is seperate and that is why i asked about yours. Another method used to determine age is the shape of the luks (blade curves) which tend to get pointier as the blades get more modern. Yours appear a bit pointy (not very) in the photos you presented (compare with Blu's) so i would imagine that yours is a later variety. Others who make the Moro kris their main point of study may know better as to when and to what degree of pointiness the luks are in different periods. I have seen very pointy luks on very modern versions. Also materials can be a clue to age. That is why i asked you in the other thread if the bands on the sheath were aluminium. That generally points to around or post WW2. Of course they could also have been added at a later date. Hope that helps.

reply to Nec
 

Tx for info, I will have to get that book (looks for Amazon bookmark.)

I did reply on the scabbard bands but you prob got tired of that thread before seeing it. Top band is some kind of cloth cord and the other two are recent masking tape jerry-rigs to keep the two halves together. One very thin (1/8 in.) brass band remains next to the upper tape wrap.

Cannonmn , I hope you stick around this place ; I think you're a good addition to the crew (and we don't mind talking about cannons either). :D

I believe your kris to be fairly recent ; say less than 80 tears old ; that's just my opinion though . There is a lot of good workmanship in your blade and I wonder if it wasn't meant for local use rather than for sale to foreigners .

One thing I find interesting is the top of the gangya area on your blade ; it looks like a relatively straight line whereas most of the pieces I have seen have a sweep or curve to them .
Check out that separate gangya pic I posted in the other thread and you'll see the difference .

Does anyone want to suggest a tribal attribution for Cannonmn's kris ?

Do you think you'd consider etching it to bring out any pattern that might be there ?

4 Rick
 

Rick, thanks. I really like this board, so much higher level than those I'm used to on E.

Yes I'd consider etching. I searched this board for how to do it etc. but didn't get to any "how to" post. If you could link me to any semi-thorough past discussion of it I will read it. I have other blades that are oxidized enough that I would definitely like to find out the proper way to clean,polish, etch them, and would be happy to post results when done.

One Way
 

First you must get the blade totally degreased and any rust removed .
I have used acetone and then a strong detergent wash followed by a thorough rinse and blow dry with heat .

If you have any hot sun where you are (there ain't any here) leave the kris out in direct hot sunlight for a couple of hours . The most gentle etchants are vinegar or strained Lime juice (lots) ; they are best when used hot ; add a drop of liquid detergent to your etchant so that it does not bead up on the blade surface .
Apply the etchant to the blade with a clean brush or rag quickly covering the entire sword and work the solution around on all the surfaces ; the trick is to keep the liquid moving so that the discoloration of the metal happens evenly .
When and if you see a pattern start to come out keep working and let it darken to the shade that you like then rinse in hot water and wash with baking soda to neutralize the etchant . There may be some tarnish left on the surface so rub the blade down with a soft dry cloth . Finish drying until the blade is warm again with a hair dryer . Spray the blade with WD40 to stabilise the surface ; wipe it clean and apply wax or gun oil .

There are other ways and maybe someone else will offer one . I like this method because it's gentle on the steel . :)

Tx Rick
 

Will try that in near future, thanks!

I'm pretty sure that a slight reetching will proove Kai Wee's kris to have a separate gangya. However, that's a mere guess - the single close-up doesn't offer enough details to judge.

Yup, that's it (a separate piece of steel tightly fitted to the rest of the blade). Like Nechesh, I also seem to imagine a separate gangya for your piece:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=11745&stc=1
But we definitely need an etching to decide either way!

BTW, the other kris with Naga inlay which Ron linked to has a fairly obvious separate gangya.


No, the rule of thumb is the other way around: kris with separate gangya will usually be pre-1930 (but there are exceptions!). Please have a look at this recent thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2394

Regards,
Kai

Moro Armor
 

Cannonmn,

Welcome!

Any chance we can get to see the Moro Armor??

Moro armor are usually made of karabao horn plates (some brass plates) with chain mail. It would be nice to see your tortoise shell example. :)

I sent you a PM about this. :)

Hi Cannonmn,

No problems; I'm more than happy to have the discussion on your moro kris brought over to this thread. :) Maybe you could do a little search on past threads for "kris" and you will see many much finer examples of Moro krises owned by other forumnites here. :)

Its an interesting question about whether my kris is a separate-ganja piece or not. Initially, I thought a line on the metal itself would suggest a separate ganja, however, recently I learned that sometimes, such a line was chiselled into the blade to give an illusion of a separate ganja. So I'm not so sure anymore. My piece has a line, and a slight wedge-shaped gap at the aring end. Not sure if that is proof of a separate ganja.

The gandik side. Hope the picture fits.

Great macro shots. It sure looks like the grain of the metal at the base of the blade (where a separate ganja would be) runs perpendicular to the length of the blade.

Yup, I'd also bet on separate gangya, Kai Wee. This seam shows the usual irregularities from forging as well as from minor corrosion (which wouldn't be restricted to one side of an engraved line but would rather go "through" it, usually) and the grain of the metal pretty much nails it. A reetching (I'd try mere vinegar) would make the latter much more obvious and most certainly bring out a nice pattern for this great blade!

Regards,
Kai

From Wayan
 

Salam Pak Braulio,
Anyway, you ask, "So what is the truth about the whole american expat thing...? i've heard different rumors and such."
That is a fair question, and it deserves an honest and complete explanation. And, by the way, if you are so inclined, and you do not object, it would be great for you to post what I am about to write on that forum so other posters there can better understand. However, if this would jeopardize your standing on that forum, i.e. cause you to be thrown off of it, then please don't take that risk.
I am an American expat, and I live in a remote village not far from the cultural heart of Bali, which is Ubud. I am married to a prominent Balinese lady, and we have three sons. We live in her ancestral village, so I almost as married to her family, and my village, as I am to her.
We have one of only two on-line computers in the village. The other on-line computer is also ours, but it is located in another family compound, a family member, who is working on his doctorate degree in anthropology and ethnomusicology. We share our computer with several other village members who are advancing in their English, as well as a small group of kris enthusiasts including the well known Pande Retug. Without getting into a whole lot of unnecessary details, my wife and I are considerably involved with numerous NGOs and other charitable organizations, as well as cultural organizations throughout Bali. Somewhat embracing the old adage that "charity begins at home" I spend most of my time working within my own village, and with these people that are my family, and that I love dearly.
In signing up for eewers, we, (meaning our kris club), decided to use the very generic Balinese name Wayan, which simply designates first born, and does not even have a gender, as both first born men and women of average caste status are named Wayan. Our "kris club" for lack of a better word to define it, came about quite spontaneously over many long discussions with my fellow villagers. Eventually these conversations boiled down to the realization that aside from Western scholars, very little about the kris di Bali has been written by Balinese.
So, that is the background of this situation. I do most of the writing, but not all, as my cousin, whose name is Wayan ...the young man pursuing his doctorate, has excellent English skills and has lived and studied in the states for over five years.
At first blush I can see how someone could consider our membership in eewers as deceptive, as we did not explain this right off. At the time it seemed unnecessary, as we were all speaking in one voice, representing mutually held opinions about kris di Bali.
As an "adopted Balinese" I very much follow what has in fact been written about kris scholars concerning the Balinese kris, and I will not make apologies for that:
As wong Maospahit, or people of Majapahit, the Balinese are the closest direct descendants of the original masters of kris making. By the time of the fall of the Majapahit empire in the late 15th century, most all of the best artisans had fled Java for Bali, (refer Edward Frey, The Kris, page 45). This exodus of artists from Java to the remaining Hindu areas such as Bali and Lombok was caused by the Islamic prohibition of living images in art or utilitarian objects imposed by the Muslims, who were ever increasingly taking control of Java. Kris scholars acknowledge that the Balinese kris, which is significantly different than its Javanese cousin, is most closely aligned to the original kris which evolved in the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit Dynasties.
That is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth, and as far as we are concerned, there is no reason to walk on egg shells when discussing that truth. So, that's it. Salam, and Om Santi, Santi, Santi, Om from Bali.

Well, since it would appear that our friend Wayan does still have a voice of sorts on this forum i would suggest that you might want to consider that he is not quite coming clean on his entire history. :rolleyes:
This is kinda like the fox explaining to the chickens what he was doing in the hen house. :D
And just to continue a debate Wayan and i were having when he was banned, Yes, many artisians left Jawa to go to Bali when Islam took over. The laws of Islam do call for a ban on the representation of living creatures in art, bith human and animal AFAIK. HOWEVER, as i pointed out to Wayan, these rules aren't so cut and dry as he seems to think as can nbe proven by the existence of raksasa hilts in both Jawa and Madura as well as bird and horse headed hilts from Madura. I have seen priest figures holding a flower as a common motif from (i think) east Jawa or Madura. THIS is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth. :)
But what do i know, i'm just a guy from Cincinnati. :rolleyes:

BTW, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the raksasa form, they generally have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a mouth, 5 fingers and 5 toes. I don't know what they call that amongst Wayan's clan, but i certainly consider that human form, which is not to say they ARE human any more than Siva or any of the gods depicted are. :)

Please take this discussion to private email gentlemen. Otherwise I will close this thread.

Sigh
 

Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa .

From Tammens

The conundrum is which wayan to address among the kris di Bali club given their circumstance. You can email them direct.

BEATING A DEAD HORSE ICON :cool: WE HAVE NEEDED ONE OF THOSE FOR A WHILE :D

WHILE ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID SO FAR IS TRUE AS TO TYPES OF KERIS HULU CARVINGS. I WOULD PUT FORWARD THE IDEA THAT WHEN THE MOSLEMS TOOK OVER IN JAVA PERHAPS THE LEADERS WERE UNDERSTANDING AND DIDN'T RULE WITH A IRON FIST AND ALOWED THOSE WHO WISHED TO REMAIN HINDU TO LIVE AND DO SO AFTER ALL THEY ALLOW BALI TO REMAIN HINDU. THAT WAY THE CHANGE WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE SLOWER AS THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG WERE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF ISLAM AND THE POPULATION GRADUALLY BECAME MOSLEM. DURING THIS PERIOD SOME THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE OLD WAYS AND WOULD HAVE STILL HAD A MARKET AMONG THE HINDU POPULATION. A MOSLEM WOULD BE PROHIBITED BY HIS FAITH FROM OWNING OR PRODUCING BANNED STYLES OF ART SO THE OLD STYLES WOULD HAVE FADED OUT AND THE NEWER ONES HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE.

JUST MY THOUGHTS FACT OR FICTION? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDONESIA TO SAY BUT IT MIGHT OFFER AN EXPLANATION. WHEN DEALING WITH MANKIND AND HISTORY THERE ARE FEW ABSOLUTES PERHAPS ONLY BIRTH ,DEATH AND TAXES.

Beating a dead horse... :rolleyes:

Here are two hilts from Indonesia, the first is from northern Jawa (a Jinn with Naga attributes) and the second is from Madura (Semar).

I too have been confused by the presents of these in light of the cultural ban. They do not appear to be made for the Hindu market, just my opinion.

It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm.

Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

Here's an article on the subject.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

Thank you Micas for that exellent article. As i stated, not so cut and dry as some might think. :) I believe you will even see hadith enforced differently in different areas of Indonesia. Certainly it doesn't apply in Bali, but other areas are more strict and i believe it would be much harder to find an unabstracted human form on, say, a keris from Sulawesi.
Those are interesting examples that you show Wayne. The second one i think is a fairly recent example of a wayang figure and i have frequently seen whole collections of these characters in hilt form on ebay. I am not sure if they are being carved in Jawa or Madura (or perhaps elsewhere), but they are clearly being made for Javanese or Madurese keris, not Balinese ones. They are still carving these today AFAIK.
The horse and the winged horse (not to beat a dead horse, mind you :D ) is a common motif in Madura and i have one that is probably mid 20th C, so it seems obvious that these laws are not enforced in these areas in the modern age.

Human figures appear on many Persian carpets in the times before the 20th century, they always seem to be on the very best. Money talks :rolleyes: .

Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

That sounds cool Mick. CAn you point us to any examples? :cool:

Hello Mick,

I guess you're referring to that gorgeous keris which is shown for example in van Zonneveld (p. 58). However that one was "collected" by the VOC before the middle of the 18th century or more likely during the 17th century. Thus, this is probably a pre-islamic piece...

I don't doubt that some of these hilts persisted after the conversion of the Bugis to Islam but are there any later examples (like 19th c.) known?

Regards,
Kai

Here is a scan of one piece in the museum in Jakarta. I took it from Hamzuri's Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris.

A dear friend of mine (who has departed this earth) had a piece which was similar to this one. I do not know where this piece is today.

Don't know what happened. I'll try again.