English Short Sword
 

Hi Guys,

I have had this sword for a long while. Originally bough same as belonging to the "Tower Of London Beefeater" guards, but it doesn't seem to fit the bill, at least to me.

The blade was soiled to the point of blackness. Once cleaned, it evidenced faded and worn signs of its original etching. The words "Covent Garden" were eventually seen, very faint, at its ricasso. The half-shell guard's shield seems to correspond to the Portcullis in London's Westminster Abbey.

The etching and fish skin grips seem to suggest a post 1850s to early 20th C. manufacture date.

Any ideas, beyond what I already know? A coronation guard? An abbey grounds warden?

I know there were at least a couple sword retailers at Covent Garden: "Hamburger Rogers & Co" and "J & B PEARSE & CO".

(BTW, I hope this is not another of the usual cases where nobody else knows more than I do. )

: )

Best

Manolo


Caveat: This, as any of any and all of the other blades in my collection, may be sold at some point in time in the future..!

The badge is the Customs and Excise/Revenue (British) badge, so presumably their Dress?? sword/dagger??
Regards Stuart

Thank you Stuart!

And yet, the portcullis and chains are the traditional Tudor and Westminster Arms, and in mine, the hat-piece over the Portcullis looks more like a miter than a crown. Even so, your suggestion seems very plausible. Now I need to research that venue.

Thanks for again coming to the rescue!

Best regards.

: )

Manolo

Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well.

It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen.

Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's.

I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them.

All very best regards,
Jim

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norm for explaining the difference in the crown shape. The style of crown varies, and has varied thru the ages depending on the Monarch on the throne at the time. Sorry I was remiss in not saying this originally.
Regards Stuart

Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu,


I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade.

While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances.

So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters.

This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !. :rolleyes:


Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London.

Cheers!


Manolo



BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

:shrug:

I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle.

Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?
:shrug:

Hi Gene,

All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade.

Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey.

Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang.

Curiouser, and Curiouser...

:)

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

LOL, I'd be happy to help. Have a looksee and I'll do the same later. If we can find someone to telephone etc, I can do that :)
I'll grab the pics now in readiness.
Did anyone check into the westminster dragoons?

The crowned portcullis is the symbol of both houses of parliament. With all the 'costume drama' aspects of our democracy, could it be a guard from there?

The only thing that makes me think it might not be completely ceremonial is the plain nature of the blade.
But the small guard reminds me or a court sword.
Hmmm, its a puzzler.

Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort.
Stu

Thanks mate :p lol

This sword is neither in the W-L, nor in the ffoulkes book. In fact, it's in none of my books on the subject of British edged weapons.

Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!!
I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!!

Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL:). It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces.

Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed.

I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!!:)
We'll find it.

All the best,
Jim

Hi,
This may or may not be helpful! go to, www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf
Regards,
Norman.

Now that IS interesting.
Gene,you now have a contact to send those pics.
Manolo, the plot thickens!
Norm, thanks for that information. I personally did not know that this symbol was so widely used.
Regards Stuart

Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword.

My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

Ok Gents,
Well I've made some calls.

Imperial war museum.
No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message.

Tower of London.
Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!!
I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot.
I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London.

She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection.


P.S.
A thought has just occured.
The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links)
Could this be an identifying factor?

Identical sword, but still a mystery...
 

Here's one on the oldswords.com database...


The description given is:

"Item Description (Item Id: 103775)

Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition"

No reference to whom this sword was issued though. :shrug:

Well, that proves one thing.
This is not a marriage or altered item.

Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me :D
Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours)
In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested?

Gene

OK, well here are the relevant bits of the back and fourth conversations I've had with our kind curator at The Tower's Armoury today.
I did explain that the sword belonged to a friend of mine who wasn't in the UK, so I'm sure she expects me to be sharing the relevant pieces of the emails:

She at first drew a blank and passed it to a collegue to research.

'My colleague is pursuing it – we think Wallace and Wallace may have had one go through some years ago. Interesting that they are produced in both white and yellow metal. Blank on named firm – nothing in Swords for Sea Service vol II (I’m not entirely surprised; probably a retailer not a maker) or in my small index down here. Most of this sort of information should be at Leeds, if you ring the Library and ask them to look in the de Cosson index (Tel: 0113.220.1832), but probably requires a hike through the later 19th C directories.'

And lastly:

'Kent Arms sales sold one in the 1990s and id it as Customs House one – not sure, but you might ask Customs Museum at Liverpool. The one for sale was white metal too.

Other than that cannot think of many more avenues. Will let you know if aught more turns up.'

Something to digest!

There is no maker Woods & Son on Bow St, however there's a E. [Edmund] Wood, listed as a sword cutler, working on Bow St ca.1822-1836.
He later moved to 10 Great Wild St in Lincoln's Inn Fields, ca/1837-1840

Gentlemen, I have nothing to add at this point, but cannot resist admiring the fantastic teamwork, and brilliant detective work unfolding here!!!!
You guys are absolutely the best :) and this is exactly what our forum is about.
Thank you all so much!

Jim

Wow, look all that went on while I was away! Guys, I'm humbled by the results of your joint effort. I'm also ashamed, I plumb forgot to check Old Sword's database.

I guess I deserve to be whipped with a wet noodle...

BTW, I read somewhere that there were no sword makers in Covent Garden, just retailers.

Compared to the sword at Old Swords, mine is almost in relic state. Very little remains of the etched panel, and the fish-skin grip is in poor condition.

Well, it is said that the thrill is in the hunt. Tally Ho, & Kudos to you all !

: )


M

Hi Manuel,

The Tower have been back in contact this morn:

"Reviewing it all the morning after – can I check – is your friend’s example yellow metal or white (I had it in my head as yellow, but all the other evidence is for white metal examples). I am chary about the Customs service identification – just because it is so different from the other customs’ swords. I’d like a bit more concrete evidence. Also from dim memory of the NMM (I started off there), the customs service is more often allied to the Navy than the Army, but it keeps changing its allegiance throughout the 18th & 19th C – however I am no expert in the field – hence do contact Liverpool. I would try Houses of Parliament too – if only to exclude the option.

I will keep an eye out for more info – although I paddle more along the muddy streams of Tower history nowadays. Please let us know if your researches expose more concrete evidence. Good hunting"

The mounts ARE Bronze aren't they?

Hi Guys!

G: I can't say if its bronze, I need to get back home and check. I do remember the hilt's shade is kinda' dark-yellowish, compared to the blade.
OTOH, I remember a hilt of silimlar shade becoming gray, once the oily residues were cleansed away with a solvent.

Below, more pics from a web-based photo depot, just click on the thumbs.:


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...h_DSCN1602.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...h_DSCN1603.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...h_DSCN1604.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...h_DSCN1607.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r..._DSCN1607b.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...7benhanced.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...benhancedb.jpg

OK, let me know as soon as you're sure, I'll email her and tell her.
They do look bronze in the pics. :shrug:

It's a strange-looking bird. The grip is reminiscent of the Scottish regulation grips ca.1850-1890s, while the cross-guard is of French style. Blade looks like a giant Sheffield dirk blade, with a long ricasso, and rhomboid in cross-section.

BTW: I take it that when our friend uses the ab': 'NMM' she refers to the National Maritime Museum.

Just to 'echo' Jim's sentiments....It's been great to see such collaboration and community spirit ......keep up the good work guys ;)


All the best
David

Yep, I agree Katana. It is fun!

BTW G, just polished a small section of the cross-guard, the yellowish tinge was indeed due to patina/oily residues. The hilt is made of white metal.

Take care y'all

: )

M

Bloody hell! Well there's a suprise! I'll let our friend know.

G,

I so much envy your access to civilized museums...

:(

Well, not so much access for me, I'm at the 'arse end' of the country so can't visit them personally :mad:
But, they are State museums, so they do 'belong' to the people :)
As a socialist, I'd be horrified if they wouldn't help a polite request ;)

I've emailed our Kind Curator to tell her that yours is white metal, and I'll let you know as soon/if she comes up with anything more.

Gene

Same pattern...
 

Trawlling through the oldsword.com database (looking for something entirely different!) I came accross this one. The Hilt is virtually identical to the sword discussed here (without the portcullis shell guard), but made by Wilkinson. This example is dated 1853. I'm starting to think of this sword as a 'presentation' blade', similar to private purchase poignards awarded for civillian and military service or excellence.

http://www.oldswords.com/mypictures/22764-d7_1_s.JPG

http://www.oldswords.com/mypictures/22764-11_1_s.JPG

http://www.oldswords.com/mypictures/22764-1b_1_s.JPG

Item Description (Item Id: 22764)

ANTIQUE 1853 WILKINSON PRESENTATION SWORD
A very unusual and possibly unique sidearm made by Henry Wilkinson and etched on the blade :PRESENTED TO JAMES MONROE BY THE COMPANY JUNE 1853.As there is no reference to the presenter other than the company.it was possibly given by Wilkinsons, to someone conected with them.I have never seen one like it. There are similarities to the military band swords of the period, and it is reminicant of a Royal Scottish Archers sword I once owned a few years ago.The overall length is 26 inches, and the blade is 19 1/2 inches. The fittings are nickle and the grip is rayskin bound with wire.The scabard is leather with nickle mounts.the overall condition is nice,the blade retaining a good polish,with some light staining but no pitting.

Hi guys,

Bryan, your finding is (again) crucial. Indeed, it is the same sword. Mine has a loose shell-guard, not fixed to the cross. The date can now be estimated on a definite basis.

Spanish officer swords from 1860 have similar-looking fish-skin grips, plus german ceremonial swords from the late XIX and early XX Cs have similar end points. That was the base for my dating, which now seems +/- right.

Still, the four columned portcullis in the shield may have some bearing on our blade's final identity.

BTW, does anyone have an image of the ricasso's mark for the retailers "E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden" ?



G,. at least your curators answer Qs. : )

Our local equivalents feel threatened by Qs, and defend the secrecy of their armamentariums to the death. Apparently, their only chance to feel the trappings of power is when denying access to their "wards". We call their type "avocados with ties". To add insult to injury, they don't take good care of the collections. Excuse me for seething...

In the local settings, I actively discourage anyone from donating any historical piece to the govt. Private parties take so-much better care of their collections.

Best regards to all, and an interesting Samhain tomorrow....



Manolo

Well, we are nearly there!
The 1853 date of Bryans example fits perfectly with the 'gladius' sized/shaped fashion in military swords, so I'd say you've now got a definate 'mid' 19thC date for yours.

As for museum curators, it's suprising to hear that yours are like 'that' :(

Also rather depressing!

I'm happy to say that I've always found the museums of the UK to be quite the opposite. Somtimes they don't manage to ID things, but they are usually happy to try. I mean the occasional request of course, not a free valuation and ID service (There are auction houses for that! LOL).

Occasionally I will contact a museum as a last resort. It's going to be something pretty obscure if I do, so I guess they can see I'm not walking in with something they see very often.

I'm actually trying to ID a pair of bronze age/roman British bronze bowls at the moment, somewhat unsuccessfully I might add.

Hi,
Came across some information which may put this to rest i.e. a dealers website with the same item and described as a sword of the Queen's Westminster Rifles. See attached photo of their regimental cap badge.
Regards,
Norman.