Kampilan with unusual Thalassic guard form
 

Unusual Hilt.

Opinions?

Maybe I have missed something but the hilt doesn't look that unusual to me?
Very nicely carved though.

Michael

I agree...it's a nice hilt, but it doesn't look all that unusal to me either. :shrug:

I meant to say "unusual guard." :) :o Well, maybe not THAT unusual! :rolleyes: A little bit unusual?

I've got one...not that rare...

...saw a few with the same guard here in Mindanao as well. Unfortunately...most you wouldn't have access to these weapons.

Now you have my curiosity piqued, and I don't even collect these. On one hand you say they aren't that rare, and on the other that most collectors wouldn't have access. Is there some special significance to the style of hilt that precludes it falling into the hnd of foreign collectors? Inquiring minds want to know! :D

Zel - would you go for "unusual" I can't find anyone said "rare" in this thread :)

Rare ? unusual ? less common? ......whatever the outcome....I really like the hilt.. ;) ...the zooamorphic 'pommel' is interesting...do you know what it represents. The 'square' jaw and large eyes puts me off the idea it is a Serpent's head.
However, the (metal ?) wavy piece ( not very scientific :p ) on the guard certainly 'shouts' snake and I'm sure there is significance to the number of 'curves'.

As for the guard Bill, i would say perhaps "less common" is the term i would use. I have seen far too many kampilan on eBay with this style guard to consider it "unusual", though yours is i much nicer example than most of the ones i've seen. :)

Thanks, guys. I seem to have gotten into a description situation. I have been quoting a description of this kampilan from Cato's "Moro Swords." These are his words and I should be referencing him.

Please see pages 49 and 54 of "Moro Swords."

"34. A curved kampilan guard with an unusual thalassic form."

When I search for "thalassic" I see the "Free Onine Dictionary" saying:

Adj. 1. thalassic - relating to the seas, especially smaller or inland seas;- Scientific American

Thinking in this context, I assume the guard looks a bit like a boat. But it could have other meanings.

I apologise for not quoting my sources and will be sure to quote them in the future.

---- Bill

A NICE LOOKING KAMPILIAN :)

WHEN I FIRST STARTED COLLECTING IN THE 1960'S I NEVER SAW A KAMPILIAN WOOD GAURD THAT WAS DIFFERENT ON THE ENDS. KAMPILIANS WERE NOT SEEN OFTEN AT GUN SHOWS OR OTHER PLACES DURING THOSE TIMES BUT KRIS AND BARONG AND TAALIBON/GUNONG WERE FAIRLY COMMON. THERE WERE VARIATIONS IN THE DESIGN OF THE CROSSGAURDS BUT THE ENDS WERE ALWAYS THE SAME ON BOTH SIDES. I HAD NOT SEEN AN EXAMPLE OF THE FORM LIKE YOURS UNTILL EBAY CAME INTO BEING. SO PERHAPS THEY ARE A FORM FROM SOME AREA OR REGION NOT COMMONLY VISITED BY OUTSIDERS OR MORE LIKELY A MORE RECENT STYLE FORM. I HAVE NOT HANDLED A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF THESE SO CAN'T JUDGE THEIR AGE, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION LOOKING AT YOUR EXAMPLE PRE WW2 OR AFTER WW2?

I THINK KAMPILIAN, KRIS, PANABAS AND BARONG PRODUCTION HAS NEVER STOPPED ENTIRELY AND HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF EXAMPLES THAT HAVE BEEN ANTIQUED TO LOOK OLD ,SOME VERY WELL MADE AND SOME OF LESSER WORKMANSHIP. SOMETIMES THE BLADE IS AN OLDER ONE WITH NEWER FITTINGS WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED BUT I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AS LONG AS THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD QUALITY AND TRADITIONAL.

Very helpful post Barry, it is the right name I hope. Your post is clearly floral in decoration. The one Bill post is now clearly waves. Why is there such a distinction in design? I know little of this area except the general terms of Dayak and Sea Dayak which I suspect are rather collector/western terms even if there are communities that live by and from the sea.

KAMPILIAN ARE MOSTLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE MORO BUT I AM SURE THERE WERE SIMULAR SWORDS CARRIED BY OTHER GROUPS THRUOUT THE REGION. WHERE AND WHEN THEY ORIGINATED AND WHAT THE EARLY FORMS WERE LIKE AND WHICH TRIBES TRADITIONALY USED THEM IS UNKNOWN TO ME. I SUSPECT THEY EVOLVED FROM A SHORTER SWORD WITH A SIMULAR FORM PERHAPS LIKE THE TIBOLI OR BAGABO SWORDS OR DAYAK MANDAU.

THEY WERE A TRUE WAR SWORD AND NOT A TOOL OR JUST CARRIED AROUND EVERYDAY. THEY WERE ALSO CARRIED AT SPECIAL CEREMONYS OR COURT GATHERINGS AND PERHAPS THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR BODYGAURDS OF HIGH RANKING PEOPLE. I PERSONALLY ASSOCIATE THEM MOSTLY WITH COASTAL SEA FARING TRIBES OR THOSE LIVING ALONG THE RIVERS WITH ACCESS TO THE SEA. THE COMMON STYLIZED CROCODILE HEAD POMMELS WOULD ALSO POINT TO SEAFARING COMUNITYS VERSUS THOSE LIVING IN THE HIGHLANDS. THE FLORAL DECORATION IS QUITE COMMON PERHAPS FROM ISLAMIC INFLUENCES OR PERHAPS NOT :confused:

NOT KNOWING THE FIGHTING STYLES USED IT LEADS ME TO WONDER IF THEY WERE USED PRIMARLY ON LAND OR IF THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE FOR BATTLES ON BOARD SHIPS?

I think there has been a tendency to make a hard border between communities in this area, that in earlier times did not fit modern nation state ideas. Rather like vast areas of Africa, called one thing by us and another by them so to speak. :shrug:

.

<<<==== is that unusual?

looks radioactive to me....thats kinda unusual.

ahhh, that explains it. previous owner worked at Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion Plant...

Here's unusual; simple though . :)
Anyone seen brass guards before ?

This one seems to be brass. Don't know how original it is to the handle. It was like it when I got it. From the additional holes, I would guess that some other guard was born with it.

My dog likes it.

This kampilan has a very strange feeling about it.

SPUNGER I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ABOUT THAT ONE PERHAPS YOU COULD DO A POST ON IT WITH GOOD PICTURES AND A DESCRIPTION OF MATERIALS USED AND YOUR GUESS AT AGE ECT. I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE LIKE IT AND HAVE JUST BEEN GUESSING THAT IT HAS A CARVED BONE OR IVORY HANDLE :confused: I WOULD DEFINITELY LIKE TO GET A BETTER LOOK AS IT LOOKS LIKE A REALLY NEAT SWORD.

RICK I HAVE ONLY SEEN THE ONE CAST BRONZE GAURD I THINK IT WAS YOURS ON A OLD POST. I HAVE ONE WITH A BRASS GAURD MADE FROM A PIECE OF THICK BAR STOCK WITH A SIMPLE DESIGN CUT INTO IT.
MOST OF THE KAMPILIANS I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS DID NOT HAVE A METAL GAURD AT ALL. SOME HAD HOLES WHERE ONE MIGHT HAVE BEEN OR THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD A CORD ATTACHED THERE AS IN THE EXAMPLE I POSTED ABOVE. MOST OF THE METAL GAURDS HAVE BEEN THE IRON ONES BENT INTO LOOPS BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW WITH BRASS USED INSTEAD OF IRON.

I TEND TO THINK THAT THE METAL GAURDS CAME INTO FASHION DURING A CERTIAN PERIOD AND MAY HAVE WENT OUT OF FASHION AGAIN IN LATER TIMES. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT THE HISTORY OF THE KAMPILIAN AS THERE HAVE SURELY BEEN QUITE A FEW CHANGES OVER TIME RIGHT UP UNTIL THE PRESENT. IN THE OLD CLASSIC POST ON THEM I HAD A PICTURE OF ONE WITH A SEA EAGLE POMMEL WHICH I WOULD GUESS TO BE WW2 OR LATER BUT A LATER EXAMPLE POSTED SOMEWHERE APPEARED TO BE A OLDER EXAMPLE. I ALSO HAD A VERY OLD ONE WITH A POMMEL SHAPED LIKE A HAND OR PALM LEAF OR SOMETHING, I SAW ONE OTHER EXAMPLE OF THAT STYLE BUT HAVE NOT SEEN ANY NEWER ONES USING THAT FORM. I ALSO WONDER IF WHALE BONE IS BEING CARVED TODAY FOR KAMPILIAN HANDLES AND FOR KERIS AS I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW VERY NICE HIGH END EXAMPLES IN RECENT YEARS BUT NOT BEING ABLE TO HANDLE ANY COULD NOT GUESS AGE.

Bill, possibly yours had two guards and one has gone missing.

Barry, yes whalebone is still utilised; you see newer Bali wrankas carved from it.

Bill:

I think your guard and handle have been reworked/replaced. The ensemble looks rather pristine and the carving on the handle lacks a little of the refinement and patina of older examples. From the general pattern, I would guess second half of 20th C, Maranao work from the Lake Lanao region, where many of the more recent Kampilan hilts have originated.

Ian.

As the old British academic doggerel goes:
"Thalassa or Thalatta?
The former or the latter?"

And, of course, the shout of relieved Xenophonic Greeks " Thalassa!" ( Or was it Thalatta, anyway?)

You say tomatoe, I say tomato :shrug:

And, as per Dan Quaile " You say potato, and I say potatoe"

lol. That's exactly what I was thinking. :D

SO this UK guy comes to the USA. He asks an American farmer, What do you do with all your extra produce?"

The farmer replied, "We eat all we can and what we can't eat, we can."

The UK guy thought this was very funny and he returned home he told about the Ameican farmer in the Colonies, "They eat all they can and what they can't eat, they tin!"

Waves???
 

All this time I thought it was a cockatoo, first time I'm hearing waves. Ian you were with me when I picked up this one and it's really similiar.

Dan

Dan:

I was thinking of your example a few days ago in relation to this thread. The rounded "curly" forms of decoration are relatively uncommon on kampilan and your example is unique in my experience -- definitely old (at least early 20th C) and well executed hilt and guard. In some ways the rounded curls remind me as much of vines and leaves as waves.

The guard on yours does look bird-like. Perhaps an eagle or cockatoo. :confused:

Like many of Cato's descriptions, one wonders where the term came from. He does not document his sources, and without that documentation one is left wondering if much of his information could be confirmed. Frustrating.

Ian.

Any ideas about this one? Has it been highly modified, or was it born this way?

Sometimes I wonder if pieces were worked on to sell to tourists or were they battle pieces that the owner just thought, "Hey, fix this grip so I can get a good hold on it and let me get back to fighting!"

I got a kris around here somewhere.....

Rattan kris -- found it. Somehow this seems to fit with the kampilan. I can see some guy saying, "Blade is loose. I don't have a lot of time or money. FIX IT!"

I think that this kris and the kampilan make a nice pair.

Anyone else make up fantasy stories about your collection? While I am on this subject, does anyone seem to communicate with their weapons when you are cleaning and polishing them? I feel very much closer to them when I work on them.

Excuse me now, I am going to light some incense and a few candles . . . .

I think you all know I am not a man that cares for fantastic gobbledygook, truth is stranger than fiction. But I too find handling these objects a conduit to the past and a person in another land. When there is such a repair the objet almosts shouts back at you.

DAN
THAT WAS THE KAMPILIAN I WAS CONSIDERING TO REPRESENT THE SEA EAGLE. HERE ARE MY EXAMPLES OF A SEA EAGLE AND HAND OR PALM TREE HANDLE PLUS A NEWER ONE WITH A CROSSGAURD LIKE THE ONE AT THE START OF THE THREAD.

vandoo,

sorry but my camera decided not to work today, but yes, it's made out of bone and as for its age, it arrived here either may or june of 1900. prior to that, the original owner didn't mention in his diaries as to how old it is.

Birds and fish
 

Vandoo, Yep that is definately along the same lines. Since in Islam you can't represent living beings in art they are always represented in an abstract way, kinda working the boundaries of what's allowed. For my money I'd have to go with the bird (it's just so common in all the artwork I've seen) or a fish another very important symbol to the people who live down there (mine could just as easily represent a parrot fish - common fish down there and good eating). You'll see the representation of spread feathers (much as the one hilt you have mentioned as palm tree) and on many items down there especially kites. As well I've noticed a not uncommomn tendendacy to abstractly represent fins (which in the abstract can easily be mistaken for spread feathers or waves. That said I never heard anyone down there mention waves when describing a piece with either abstract, doesn't mean it's not what the artist intended just passing on my limited exposure.

Dan

The weapon speaks
 

Tim and Bill, Glad you brought this up. I have felt for a long time that there is no better way to really be connected to the past than cleaning up an old weapon. I know I at least think about who may have owned it and what the piece has seen and the stories it can still tell if we can only learn enough to hear its voice. That is a major part of the attraction for me, besides the desire to explore new cultures, the connection to the past and what it can tell us. We are all products of our past and as the world shrinks and we become closer we must know who each other is and where they have come from if we are to make this world prosper.

He sheds a tear at his own words :shrug: Seriously though it's why I love this forum so much and the people like yourselves who make it what it is, gives me insights I couldn't get anywhere else.

Dan

Thank you Dan for your wonderful post.

Years ago a good friend (Stefan Thomas, Atlanta) cast this motto in huge letters in his garden; "This world is too small for less than Brotherhood and to Dangerous for less than Truth." At first this seemed pompous to me, but now I begin to see what Stefan meant.

These pieces are really time machines! Though the original makers and owners have a different language than most of us, the pieces seem to speak in images and emotions.

Touching is incredibly important! How many of us say that while we can look at the pictures, we cannot really 'tell' about a piece unless we hold it in our hands?

And that "touch" leads us to a visceral feeling in the solar plexus? There is no question in my mind but that we, every one of us, who has had that feeling, has connected with some of that history.

I think that this is one of the reasons we so passionately collect them. AND the more we touch, hold, clean and polish these remarkable relics, the more we can connect with the past.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, these pieces are a conduit to the past, a past that no longer exists in present cultures.

Javanese believed that the keris was a way to stay in touch with their ancestors. Some rulers gave a keris to subordinates as a symbol of their authority and that the power of the rulers, and their predecessors, flowed through the keris to them.

Unfortunately in too many cultures the past is not venerated any longer. It is felt riddled with superstition and sadly, technology has replaced much of the magic.

These relics still represent that past. Through them we can, if we listen and are receptive, still find some of that otherwise lost heritage. As an American it is harder for me to connect with the peoples and places my collection represents. I must go there. Soon, I will.

As some of you know, I would like to publish a book, not a vanity piece, but something that delves deeply into history, religion, political structure, art, culture as well as the technology behind these pieces.

I am woefully inadequate to do so, while I have knowledge of the mechanical process, (printing, photography, etc) I know my limitations, but a surprising number of people are coming forth to be part of this process, this journey. The book is certainly many years away, but the Journey has begun. And somehow the Journey is the important thing to me.

I, too, have gained insights from the members of this Forum, but even more importantly have connected with people from all over the world who do share a common brotherhood.

Fellow travelers.