Knife
 

Hi,
The comments say it all.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. No point in excess images for this item.

Photo removed

The blade reminds me that of a western bayonet.

Hi,
Yup.
Regards,
Norman.

I'm afraid I have bad news for you! This is a Chinese fantasy in the style of a Tibetan knife. This was done literally yesterday and deliberately aged.
Sincerely
Serge

Hi,
Could be, not my area at all. Seems like a lot of effort for very little return. Thanks for looking.
Regards,
Norman.

It also sometimes seems to me that these guys use forced labor of prisoners.

somewhat close but definitely no cigar
 

It looks like the guy who made this thing was inspired in his dreams by a British Pattern 1907 bayonet but didn't have enough steel to make it long enough. And needless to say lacked the equipment to do a factory-grade milling job.

hello norman .
pleas epost more detailed pictures of this item.
your knife is antique.
it is from Amdo,
it has nothing to do with chinese and is not junk.
is not fake and is an established type of knife and sword made by peoples inhabiting Amdo.
the veriaiton of these tibetian weapons is extreme.
amdo swords generally like to have a cup feature on the hilt that will couver the scabbard.
these knives were till the modern era carried as personal weapons, they fall in a catagory between belt knives and swords and generaly are a mix of each weapons features.
they are worn in isolated parts of tibet even today and even under such conditins and duress as the tibetians are forced to live such items are still ethnic indicators and items of status.

i dont know the specific ethnic group that makes this style as liturature on these knives of any accuracy is nonexsistant and even the tibetians themselves generally dont recognise all the styles apart from their obvious regional differences due to the size and isloaiton of the different ethnic groups.
amdo, kham and the lhasa tibetians all have a style they recognise but to get more informaiton you would need to ask amdo people and even then the amdo area is huge and diverse.

the tibetian cultural realm has such a vast array of these that are undocumented.

Hi Ausjulius,
Thanks for your interest. Here are a couple of photos. Will post more.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Ausjulius,
Some more photos. The edge is sharp with the ‘ricasso’ on one side possibly due to sharpening that one side more than the other. There is a drain hole on the bottom of the scabbard and signs of copper brazing on the hilt and scabbard. I would appreciate your further ideas on age and origin. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. If you need more photos please don’t hesitate to ask.

Hi Ausjulius,
More photos. The blade appears to have had many sharpenings.
My Regards,
Norman.

Excellent, there we are, learning something new.

Thanks Tim. One more photo.

While this topic is open here, I thought I would take the opportunity to ask about am item I have had for some time, and with limited resources and knowledge on these weapons this seemed a good time.

I had thought it perhaps a short sword which seems I recall termed 'dossum' in Tibetan, but that research was from many years ago.
Can you guys offer some insight?

Hi Jim, this is a bhutanese Patag, hilt is characteristic as much as the three parts scabbard

Thank you so much JBG!!!

Always a pleasure to exchange with you Jim. Let's talk another time via email.
Wish you the best,
Julien

hi thanks yes 19th or 20th century.
with iron fittings like that id say age is older pre chinese invasion most likely. so prior to the 1950s.
after that time you see more and more white metal or bass or copper combined with steel on the knives from this area - (northern amdo) fittings and almost no simple carved steel fittings. infact id say it is without a doubt prior to the second world war and could be prior to that.. these areas are just so isloated.

i cant say the region for sure but id say its north east amdo or northern central amdo, amdo is as large as the u-tsang part of tibet.
knives like this were carried for self defence. different ethnic groups of tibetian peoples carry them differently too. some hand them some put them in their belts almost horizontally. ect. you can see images of the 20th century in some areas where every peroson is carrying a large knife or short sword on their waist so there is a great variaiton in quality.. the more ornate can be of silver gold and folded steel blades, some have lizard, toad or fish skin.

hi jim, its a "patag" from bhutan. probably ealry 20th century.

Hi Ausjulius,
Many thanks for the additional information.
My Regards,
Norman.

I wanted to add that thanks to the information on my entry to this thread, with the info from JBG and Ausjulius noting my example as being a palag from Bhutan. With this I was able to find a bit more noting there were certain peculiarities in these, it seems mostly from the metallurgy of the blades and the makers (11 types named for these makers). While these were worn by priests it seems that examples used in war had a 'cross' (what form not specified) placed near the hilt on the blade.
These have not been made for some time, and only examples found are within museums or perhaps monasteries.
In 1912 Bhutan became recognized as an Indian princely state administratively in the British Raj, but warfare prior to this period seems to have been with neighboring regions Tibetan etc.

In the 1912 map, Bhutan is in green segments. The picture shows priest wearing one of these palag. The Bhutanese flag, land of the 'thunder dragon'.

They still make & wear swords in Bhutan. Here's the current King wearing his as he serves tea to his people. Note, he traditionally wears it on his RIGHT side. His ministers wear theirs on the left. The blades are normally hairpin laminations. (Men (and occasionally, women) still compete in inter-village archery contests over a hundred yards or so, competing to see who can shoot closest to, or hit a target. They do rather well in the Olympic archery events.

Excellent info Wayne! Thank you. That makes sense, it seems in most ethnographic areas edged weapons prevail. Not sure what the source I was reading meant, but thats why I posted this, for feedback.

yeah bhutan is a good example. they are still making them and if you look at bhutanese news p[apers you can see here and there examples of killings or fights, jelous lovers, angry neighbours ect.. with patags being mentioned.
goverment official were typically presented with a sword in bhutan and in the 1970s to cut costs as at the time many amny officials qualified for this .. they tried to import blades form india.. the chrome plated patags you see about soemtimes are apparently mostly indian made.
later that stopped.. now most blacksmiths there are indians and nepalis, bhutanese choosing not to work in this kid of work. nost of the bhutanese sword makers are quite old. but they apparently have soem training program to revitalise sword making.
in 2008 in tibet the tibetian swords were used to attack chinese and you can see footage of lhasa from that date with tibetians armed with swords running though the streets chopping at thier targets.
after the failed uprising many monks encouraged tibetians to destroy their weapons and there was rituial burnings of huge.. i say huge.. 10000 knives and swords all in a pile.. huge piles of arms. some of a very advanced age .. along with lepoard skins, sword belts.. antique firearms.. ect.. very sad.. they piled them up outside temples and burnt them. such a shame. . imagine seeing a silver sheathed sword with red coral dicoraiton and laminated blade burned up to a pile of metal and ash.. sad.

Ausjulius,
Again, thank you for elaborating with these important details concerning Bhutan and the circumstances involving these people and in neighboring areas as well as use of these swords. This is exactly what is needed in the study and the understanding of weapons beyond their type,form, category.
Every weapon has its story!
Now I know the story with this one :)

The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK.


The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense.
19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD,

possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog.

Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while.

Hi Wayne,
Not similar that is mine. I did ignore the auction blurb as with a lot of auction houses it is either fanciful, Spartan or wrong. As you possibly saw it didn’t cost much so I chanced my arm. Some you win some you lose.;)
My Regards,
Norman.

no worries.
have a look at this image.. https://tibetpolicy.net/discussing-r...nives-weapons/

as knife and sword collectors.. its a sad sad image..
you can find more of thes eimages with lepoard, bear and fox furs, guns, crossbows, swords knives ect being burnt.. some of those piles would be worth a million dollars.. gives you an image of just how common such arms are/were in tibet when compared with the rest of the modern world.
some place on youtube there is a festival attended by local tibetians in triaditional costume and some monks that shows traditional sword and sheild and dagger techniques. it was on youtube in tibetian language. was interesitng, it wasnt a danct but several showing cutting, defending and such techniques with sharp swords.. if i find it ill post it

https://savetibet.org/wp-content/upl...furs_image.jpg

https://savetibet.org/wp-content/upl...ang-Knives.jpg

http://www.ecns.cn/visual/hd/2015/09-02/75464.shtml

yeah ive seen small knives, large knives and swords all with this handle and guard combinaiton, i just dont know the exact region and ethnic group that uses them. the veriety on these is amazing. id love to travel to these and see all these but i think tis just not a thing the chinese government will let you do.. even in the golden days.. late 1990s to early 2000snds it was hard or impossiable even with a minder to go to many of these parts. these days it would be so hard

Just to avoid the confusion that appears to be happening. The knife above that kronckew posted is the one I have.

OOps! I didn't actually see that auction item, it was stumbled on from another source. I wanted to add another example. I found it on {deleted} where it just showed as auction 'closed' and no details were available. I also buy things via {deleted}.


Auction descriptions are often very fanciful and wrong. I just paid for an Indonesian European-style klewang )posted on the forum here) that had been listed as a middle eastern short sword (along with a Masai seme, they got that one right)!

EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }|<o)

Original post:


I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }|:o.

Exactly, it is one and the same. :)
Regards,
Norman

Similar Dagger
 

I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear.

Hi Jerseyman,

Honestly only the hilt have a tibetan plateau feeling. Again, blade seems to be from a bayonet (probably pimped with carving), as much as the scabbard. I sadly can't argue about if it's genuine or not. Two members with quite knowledge have opposite opinion.

A good way would be to search in museum. I have searched in several collection without finding anything.

Now my two cents, (not worth more than what it is) : my feelings tell me to avoid that type of things. Even if the aesthetics of the hilt can be appealing, the craft itself, the carving style and deep, etc... feel off for early work. (Again, in my opinion), it would lead me to two possibilities : or it is modern, or it is really late (like late 20th), reusing bayonets blades.

Hi,
I would like to address the’bayonet, issue. I can only speak for mine as it is the one in hand. I have handled many bayonets in my collecting days 50 plus years and one of the consistencies especially for those manufactured in the 20thC is the regularity of manufacture i.e. fuller depth and length, length and thickness of blade etc., if you look at post no12 you will see images of both sides of my knife. There are glaring inconsistencies from side to side, the fuller is different on both sides with the ends suggesting they have not been ground in with factory machinery, the edge grind in different on both sides again suggesting hand grinding rather than factory work although this could have developed over time but again that would suggest the knife had been in use for an extended period of time as does the edge grind itself which suggests multiple sharpening over a decent time period. I did think bayonet when I first looked at the knife but the above suggested to me that that may not be the case. I am not familiar with Chinese bayonets etc., only with European/American style bayonets so I maybe missing something but I am relatively sure that the knife blade is not from any bayonet that I know regarding shape, altered or not, nor of steel quality.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Even if the blade was repurposed from a bayonet that still does not stop the item being a useable tool from a particular culture. Many cultures reuse items particularly those without an industrialised infrastructure.

Hi,
Having had a look at the knife posted by Jerseyman the scabbard does indeed look like it comes from a bayonet. It particularly reminds me of the German K98 although the frog attachment is different or possibly altered to accommodate a similar hanging method to the one I posted. The Germans had of course been to Tibet re their 1938/39 expedition so it is not out with the bounds of possibility. The fuller on the knife Jerseyman posted is not the same as the K98 bayonet itself. Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

these are made to look like bayonets form british and german rifles use din tibet. i have seen such things form china too.. they probably were made at a high point in the interwar period. they are not bayonets but look like them.
with a huge surge of more modern weapons in these areas such items as bayonets become interesting to locals. these are not made with any parts of a bayonet buy made to imitate them in soem way.
such fashions also occurred in the late 19th century in both west africa and also parts of west africa where you can find belt knives imitating mostly german bayonets i have also see uyghur examples and some from afghanistan. there is probably other parts of the world where such a fashion existed but i cant think of it right now.

it is not a bayonet blade but an imitation of one. it is an imitation of an SMLE bayonet and a german mauser scabbard.

the Bonan ethnic group still makes bayonet inspired daggers and knives today.. you can see them among their more utilitarian belt knives and more traditional daggers some times.