Hello Ibrahiim,

None of this hilt type's parts are really unique - it's the really unusual combination which makes it so distinctive. Once you start looking at decorations, it's not surprising to see even more similarities in general style all across the continent and beyond. I don't think it really helps to compare koftgari to integral "tunkou" unless you dig into the details of any motifs to possibly establish any local origin; this would be really helpful though!

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

Please just Google images of "bichwa dagger" and I'm sure you'll find some examples very similar to your sword.

Also keep in mind that normal Bichwa si much smaller and designed mainly for reverse grip stabbing, hence the symetrical armatures fixing the blade to the hilt. However, your sword is too big to be used in the reverse grip, and since it has to be used with forward grip and also for slashing, it needs to have the armatures enforced towards the spine of the blade (like the ottoman Yataghans).

But just keep it in mind that this is just a hunch and by no means an irrefutable fact. Yet, it may give us a good direction for further enquiry.

Regards,

Marius

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

True. But the problem comes from the term being mis-used.

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I certainly understand calling Indo-Persian a Shamshir with an "Assadullah" blade and a Tulwar hilt, or a Pesh-kabz bearing the traits of both Persian and Indian workmanship, but as I said in my original posting, I think the use of the term is abused, for the sake of "political correctness"... or in other words, just to be on the safe side.
:cool:

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.


Have a nice weekend

Well, we can debate this at length but I think it is not the place at this thread, as here the discussion should remain focused on Kai's sword.

Maybe we can meet sometime this summer and debate it face to face drinking a beer.
;)

Have a nice weekend too!

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this. ;) :)

Best regards,
Detlef

I think there is some degree of confusion here: tunkou has nothing to do with S. Indian bladed weapons. It is of a nomadic origin, and was found on Kirghiz sabers dating to VI-VIII centuries. From there it migrated both Eastward to China and Westward/Southward (Mongols, Seljuks) and that's how it reached Europe, Turkey and North India.
It was originally designed to isolate the edge of the blade from a contact with the scabbard and to prevent moisture from entering it. With time, it acquired purely decorative overtones.

Retaining plates on S. Indian katars, patas and khandas were a device aimed at attaching the blade to the handle.

I do not think there is anything in common between the long-bladed shashka-like ( sorry for the term, but you know what I mean) weapons and bichwa, that is a short-bladed dagger deriving from a humble cowhorn with a big hole.

Hard to argue with this one! :)

Have a nice weekend! :)

The simple process of fusing together two threads dealing with an identical form is requested so that the entire process can be correctly focused upon...without duplication and without confusion... They are of the same subject...the same sword family and .... on the same Forum. Bringing them together allows Forum to treat the subject as a single conundrum ...not two.

Therefor logically ...May the two be joined ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps.

Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide.

Regards,
Kai

Show me evidence of this...where confusion results from joining two threads dealing with the same basic subject? The two threads focus upon the same sword family/style... It is blindingly obvious that the two should be put together.

Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern?

Regards,
Kai

A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26

A bronze hilt of similar construction with a sinha (or yali?) pommel. This seems to corroborate a connection with Hindu regions of southern India.

(Thanks to Ibrahiim for originally pulling this off the Ali Antiques website; all pics shown here for comparision modified to show the same orientation.)

This sword with a horse head pommel has a different kind of blade.

Another zoomorphic pommel. However, the hilt exhibiting some differences from the standard configuration discussed here: a vestigial crossbar at the back of the blade and more floral decorations, especially at the base of the blade. Arguably, it may be questionable whether this is really of the same pattern and origin as the other examples discussed here.

And last not least another variant with a more stylized pommel (still close enough to the bird examples shown above).

With the grip and pommel scales made from ivory, this one was also a status piece. Thus, one might argue that all these examples were mid (to high in post #58) status swords from somewhere in southern India; all seem to be well earlier than late 19th century.

Regards,
Kai

I haven't updated this thread for quite a while.

As possible origins within southern India, there have been suggestions to a link to the late Vijayanagar empire and/or possibly local kingdoms developing from it (including more specifically Madurai in today's Tamil Nadu).

There also have been thoughts towards the NW frontier area of a greater "Indian" sphere of influence as well as central Asia (cp. this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429).

More insights and examples more than welcome - this enigma certainly hasn't been fully solved yet!

Regards,
Kai

And another example possibly related: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26861

The knuckle guard seems to be unique with (now missing) scales attached to it originally. Were these possibly crafted from brass?

Regards,
Kai