Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK ;) , so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live. ;) :)

Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown.

Forward grip and reverse grip.

Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable.

Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here.

Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip.

http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html

drd

The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand.
Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo.

You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW ;)

Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way! :D

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...M/psycho99.jpg
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...iningLarge.jpg

:D

Thanks,

J

Most interesting post, guys.

I've been reading and looking at the added links.

As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands :rolleyes:

Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis3.jpg

Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past.

I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis6.jpg

I also tried the 'ice pick' hold. The grip is in the second position. I had to grip the handle in such a way that my little finger was on the blade. My ring finger was supported by the ganja. It was a firm grip, but I wonder if my hand wouldn't be cut if I delivered a downward thrust. :shrug:

Could of course be due to my big hands :p

Anyway, here are the last pics :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/bugis8.jpg

OK Jussi, you are just cracking me up now. :D
Alan and Freddy, thanks for the photo illustrations. They are most helpful in this discussion.
Yes Alan, that is exactly how i held my keris in the "ice pick" grip. It still wasn't comfortable for me, but that shouldn't stop anyone else if it suits them. :) It does seem perhaps more indisputable (words chosen to avoid the absolute ;) ) that this grip does limit the reach of the blade in action though.
Freddy makes a good point about the size of Western hands in this experiment. And your hilt does seem a bit smaller than the ones Alan and i are working with.
I can't speak to the concept of palace taboos since i don't know enough about this. It does seem to me though that went people get into a fight, especially when their life depends upon the outcome, they tend to fall back on what ever method works best for them.

The keris happens to be a small keris. What is the length of the keris blade? 9" For the sheath, you would want to consider something like this, (( link )).

Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed :D

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...SHINING-22.jpg

Thanks,

J

Alam Shah, you get it exactly right : the length is 22,5 cm (or 9 inches).

Fred

Yes David, there are no absolutes.

I posted my pics of grip positions only to show that the possibilities are there. In real life situations many things can and do happen that fall outside the parameters of prescribed usage or behaviour, and this ,I am sure, is true of keris usage, as it is of many other things.

We can talk about kraton standards, and silat practices, and so on, and so on, but in days past, and faced with the many possibilities that could arise, I have no doubt at all that the men who used the keris as a weapon developed their own methodologies.

There are many other possibilities of grip that I did not show, but which can be perfect for specific situations.

David, you're perfectly correct in that an ice pick grip does reduce reach, however, to the extent that it reduces reach, it increases power. In a melee situation, as in a press of bodies in combat, the ice pick grip is the preferred grip, however, in a one on one situation, especially where combatants might not be of equal physical stature or prowess, the rapier grip can compensate for those physical shortcomings.

These days I think that perhaps we may tend to see the keris as a rather refined implement:- the "prayer in steel", and so forth, however, if we read our history, it does not take very long to realise that in the distant past it had an entirely different character, and this character was not quite so sanitised as it today.

Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace.

Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day). No doubt that commoners would use the keris they deemed fit, but it's still against the normal tatakrama or adab of the palace's standard. So, if iwere asked which way is the most correct way to grip a keris handle, I would opt for the palace's way. Make no mistake, all the grips shown here are correct, as long as they can do the job. I am only pointing out the most correct way.

Bear in mind that thru' the ages, the arts may have evolved.. arts lost.. new ways devised.. what is practised now, may not be the way is was practiced say in the 19th or even 17th or 16th century. To me, I wouldn't be absolute about it.. whether in the Malay, Javanese or elsewhere. Just my 2 cents opinion. ;)

Agreed to certain extent.... but the palace is the source that I feel is the closest ways how the keris was wielded in the olden days. Evolved, but still maintained its originality......

Penangsang, you are unquestionably correct, from a 20th.-21st. century perspective.

However, what we see and understand from our present perspective is not necessarily applicable to times past.

Equally, when we consider kraton practices and standards as they apply today, those practices and standards do not necessarily reflect the situation from , say, 500 years ago.

In order to understand the keris we need to broaden our studies to include history, literature, sociological and anthropological fields---at least.

I agree with you completely that at our present point in time, the various kratons are arbiters of "correctness" in many fields, however, that "correctness" can only ever extend as far as the influence of any particular kraton. Move into a different area of influence, and the standards of "correctness" can, and do, change.

How much more can those standards change when we move backwards through the dimension of time, and also through the dimension of space?

To understand the past , we need to try to adopt a mode of thought that is in harmony with the past---and that is not always the easiest thing to do.

ROFLMAO
:D

Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929

...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.