Hi,
Paul, you mentioned in one of your post about the thickness of the steel used for baskets, never having handled an old sword what kind of thickness are we talking about and in the manufacture of baskets was the weight of the basket manipulated in such a way as to determine the point of balance of the sword to suit an individual owner? By the way teetotal isn't contagious, even the Glasgow strain, so maybe we could get together over a coffee pot sometime.
Regards,
Norman.

"Biadh is deoch do MhacCormaig"
"Food and Drink for McCormick"
Inscription above the door to Moy castle, Isle of Mull, in recognition of the help given to Murdoch, 6th MacLaine of Lochbuie by McCormick swordsmen in capturing the castle, c1540.

Aye okay pal mines a pint of heavy! whats wrong with Glasgow. I am not a Scot by birth, only schooled there, just had to join in. :D

"There's nuthin the metter wi Glesga, ah jist don't like it goin roon an roon"!!!
Regards,
Norman.

BTW Tim which school ?

Jim,

I thank you for your reply, and was not intending in any way to appear to be "squashing" what you had to say.
This whole subject is so very interesting, and by nature bound to have much folklore and variations in it. This is what makes it so interesting!....trying to sort out truth from fiction.
If it was all plain and straight-forward it would not be half so compelling.
(After all, when did we last enjoy searching when we knew the answers already?!)

There have been some beutiful swords shown on this thread! thanks for sharing!!
I have no Scottish basket hilted swords. (Only a home-made dirk) I Nearly bought one years ago in York, but the guard was "gai sair" on the knuckles!

Richard.

Hi Jeff,
Trying to discover more on the 'S' element in hilt construction, and in checking Whitelaw, Plate III, #2 is remarkably similar to your hilt on this one. It is captioned that this sword was signed by John Allan Sr. who worked in Doune, c.1714.(p.283). This is of course a Stirling hilt.

It is interesting that these S shaped elements appear to mirror each other, with the opposite one being of course reversed. It would seem that if this was intended to be a symbolic letter, it would have been correctly positioned on either side. Interestly in another source, I found a Glasgow hilt also using the S elements. The earlier ribbon hilt forms also carried these S shapes though in the much heavier strips.

In "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970, #24) the author notes regarding the S, "...people have considered this to have a Jacobite connection (i.e. S for Stuart). Alternatively it is S for Stirling. Both theories are unlikely however".

This is yet another of the mysteries of these swords, which includes the pierced shapes in the saltire plates, the concentric circles, zig zags and other designs and motif on the hilts. While it would seem that the sources I have noted seem to suggest these 'S's are simply structural connecting elements, it would be interesting to hear of other notes or comments on them.

Really is a beauty Jeff!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

No problem Richard! I did not perceive that at all.
You have hit the nail on the head on the researching of these weapons...it is truly an adventure that is indeed compelling and you are exactly right, a complete joy in discovering answers to the countless questions and mysteries. While the folklore can be confusing from a historic view, one cannot deny the lore of Scotland is truly magnificent, making the search indescribably enjoyable, to the point where one often forgets exactly what the search was for,at least for me.

There are truly some beautiful swords posted here, and it is great to be able to admire them as well as learn more on thier history.

All very best regards,
Jim

In looking at these basket hilts, it seems that #1 and #3 are of the form typically term 'ribbon hilts, and sometimes either snouted or beaknosed for the vestigial remains of cross quillon that remain . It seems like these are usually considered from about the third quarter of the 17th century to about the beginning of the 18th. (Wallace #20).

While nearly all Scottish basket hilts seem to have been mounted with German blades, there is one of this type and of this period with a contemporary French heavy cavalry sword blade ("Culloden: Sword and the Sorrows" p.44, 1:45).

Best regards,
Jim

Jim,

Re. the German blades often found on these swords,
Do you know if those blades cut down from the longer "Claymore" type , and made into basket hilt swords when the fashion changed, were these earlier blades too made mostly in Germany?

(There must have been an easier way to ask that question!...I'm in a rush and my brain freezes!)

All the best!

R.

Nuthin' worse than the dreaded brain freeze Richard! I have learned to exercise extreme caution with frozen margaritas:)

Excellent question on the 'two handed swords'. According to Blair ("The Early Basket Hilt in Britain", p.378) these were in use from 15th century until the 17th century in Scotland. It would seem likely that these came to Scotland from the Continent as well, and most probably Germany. Though it is unclear when the two hand sword went out of date, Blair also notes that most modern writers suggest the early 17th c. It is known that some of these were still in use as late as Culloden, and there is an example shown in "Culloden: The Sword and the Sorrows" (p.23, 1:2) with the double shell guard. It is noted that the blade is probably from an earlier sword and rehilted to correspond with current fashion, a trend apparantly established as early as the rehilting of Wallace's sword in 1505. It is noted further that the blade is from either Solingen or Passau.

In "Scottish Swords & Dirks" (Wallace, pp.11, 24) it is noted that "..many claymores were broken up as they went out of fashion and the blades ground down for use with the basket hilt". While this statement seems convincing, it seems agreed in other sources that considerable numbers of these large two handed swords remained with families, and may well account for those brought out for Culloden.

Wallace also notes that "...a Setzordnung of 1628" lists the blades made for foreign markets included the broad double edged blades made for Scotland were termed 'grosse schotten' ("Broad Scots").

I think that the use of the larger broadsword blades for mounting in basket hilts would have been more a matter of circumstance or preference, and if an individual preferred a basket hilt this might have been done. In the case of broken blades, much as in the case of a blade being salvaged for mounted for a dirk, so might these have been used for a basket hilt. No good blade would be wasted as no Scot would forsake proud steel.
I think there is no more heart rending thing than reading "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden", E.Andrew Mowbray, 1971, who wrote and illustrated an account of the travesty of a fence railing at Twickenham House fashioned from the blades of the swords of the fallen Scots on that tragic day.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks all for the comments so far. before we go on with this thread I think it would be good to review the basics, starting with the hilt types. I will start with what I can find in the literature (I will plagiarise heavily from the texts and will put all references at the end after working my way through the different hilt types). It would be great if the expertise of Paul, Jim, Eljay and the others could add on.

Starting with the earliest mature form;

The English Hilt (aka; Irish Hilt, Twysden hilt, Highland Hilts). These hilts are thought to predate the more familiar Scottish hilts. They were in use around the mid portion of the 16th century. They came to be associated with the Highland Scots and Irish. Oakeshott reasons this on the fact that a lot of Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster bringing a number of Highland mercenaries into Ireland during the subsequent wars. This form is the same as the Sword of Sir William Twysden (1566-1629) of Royden Hall, Kent (Currently in the Met. New York). I think it was Claude Blair who first started referring to this style as 'Twysden Hilt' this name seems to have caught on including the current best reference on baskethilts by Mazansky, as previously mentioned by Jim. Rather than describe the hilt I will try to post a number of photo's First is my Backsword, next is the Twysden sword and third is another example.

From the Englishhilt a number of styles developed. In the mid to late 17th century in the Western Highlands the Ribbonhilt (aka beaknose). Mazansky notes that there are four consistent features. 1) a residual quillion to form a beaknose, 2) Broad flat bars (the ribbon), 3) An S filler, 4) A flat ring that the side guards attatch to which then curves around 2/3rds of the base of the pommel.

Unfortunately I have to get ready for hockey and will try to add more tomorrow.

All the Best
Jeff

Fantastic! and well done Jeff. This is exactly where I hoped this would go. To focus on the various forms and thier development. As noted, the Twysden is quite early, and the blank saltire plates and connecting strips of the general form apparantly continue on many of the later English hilts in the 18th century. The ribbon hilt, as noted, seems about mid 17th century, though most that I have seen would seem c.1680-90.

I am curious on the pierced saltire plates and it seems they might have begun with influence from the pierced hearts I mentioned on some German dusagge basket hilt plates. I would like to discover also if possible, were the Glasgow hilts the earliest to use the pierced shapes?

Thank you Jeff!
All the best,
Jim

Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread with great interest and would like to say that it is extremely informative. The level of contribution, that is scholarship, is terrific.

For those who are in possesion of antiques, it would be nice if they could provide the vital stats of the weapons, like weight, blade length, width, position of COP etc.

Keep is up. I am learning heaps.

Cheers
Chris

Thank you very much Chris! and that is an excellent suggestion on adding the stats on weapons posted. What is great about these type of discussions focused on a particular topic is that we can all pool resources, share the weapons owned privately, as well as seen in museums, and thereby all learn together. Thank you for the kind words, and the very helpful suggestion.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
Lets get through the basics and see if the forum can come up with an answer (ie. I don't have an answer but will keep looking :) ).

Hi Chris,
Hopefully I can dig out the swords and get a few answers for you.

All the Best
Jeff

The next group are the 'Thin-barred simple hilts'. There appears to be some controversy whether these developed from the Twysden hilts or in parallel with them from thin bared precursors.
This type evolved into the hilt types we are more familiar with. Using images from Mazansky you can see the evolution. 1 the earlest and 7 the latest.

(mods is it possible to organize the pictures in sequence as it makes more sense that way/ thanks /Jeff)

This Brings us to the 18-19th century with the 'Conventional hilts'. The garrison towns of Glasgow and Stirling became the major centers of manufacturing.
Prior to 1745 they supplied both Hanoverian and jacobite factions, after they supplied the Highland regiments and British cavalry. Most of the hilts were made in a cottage industry fashion being produced in small shops in the areas. A few big names are associated with each area as well.

Glasgow Hilts;
The family most associated with these are the Simpsons (no relation to Bart, Jessica or OJ). Quoting Mazansky ' The bars are of flattened rectangular section. They have deep flutes flanked by engraved line on each side' . He goes on in much more detail about the shields and guards as well. Below is 3 Glasgow hilts, the flat grooved bars are clearly seen. The picture with 6 hilts is from Whitelaw all signed Glasgow makers. note that Fig 3. shows that the rule doesn't always hold.

Stirling hilts;

The Allan family is the most famous hilt makers from this area. Unlike the Glasgow hilts these tend to be more varied 'artistic'. The bars are round to flattened but lack the grooves.

Thanks very much Jeff! These illustrations and your explanations help a lot. So the 'Glasgow' hilts seem to carry more traditional form, and the one of the key features would be the fluted and incribed bars.
The Stirling is as you note, more rounded bars and artistic free form. As you note these were 'garrison' towns which of course were British occupied and it seems Stirling was closer to the English border. Possibly more of the freeform resulted with more military oriented styling for instance the blank saltire plates and so on. It seems mid 18th century there were more grid type forms and functionally developed examples that evolved in Birmingham, in England,along with other horsemans swords.

By the 1770's I think of the regimental pattern that had the tall conical pommel from Birmingham, I think the suppliers were Drury and Jeffries.

All the best,
Jim