Tom:

I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process?

Ian.

Hi Tom the central core ( I believe it goes all the way through) on the kris sundang is a very heavy jellyroll twist ; that area is also a wide shallow fuller , there is also a narrow deeper fuller on one edge .

The Bonifacio (if I may) seems to me to be cheeks of different steel laminated on a possibly iron core ; that blade has had a thorough etch ; only problem is if it is tripartate construction the lines of demarcation are not readily apparant on the spine .

The last picture is of the Baiwan sword tip ; I believe this may well be the same construction method as the bolo .

A better look at the bolo edge .

And below it what I believe to be an inlaid panel over the core of a very old kris , akin to pamor .

Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.

Now I'm getting confused Tom, which kris are you speaking of here ?
The first kris sundang picture I posted I'm pretty sure that the core is spiral jellyroll pattern if you will all the way through and the laminated edge was forge welded on .
The second older kris with the leaf like central pattern I believe to be applied to both sides of the sword in a fairly thin layer over the blade as you can see it fade out toward the point unlike the other sundang blade .

Am I making any sense ? :)

...and i thank you, tom, for your time.




(psst, your message box is full ;) )

Laminated Visayan Blade + Hardened Edge
 

Dragged out this old one and etched it this afternoon to find evidence of lamination of the blade and a hardened edge similar to the binangon I showed above.

We know this one is old because it has an older style Visayan scabbard, a wooden disk guard that is asymmetrical, and the blade just looks "old." The beveled edge has been ground many times and shows clear lamination.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yanSword3b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yanSword3c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yanSword3d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yanSword3e.jpg

I thank you, spunjer, for the pictures of a very nice looking old sword :)
Rick, rather than try to further diagnose from a distance why don't you send me your swords? Just joking :eek: Rather than try to further diagnose from a distance, I'll tell you a thing to look for. Look at the spine of the blade on the dog head sword, within the clip, at the very tip. If the surface is clean and etched well, and the hard steel goes all the way to the tip, you should either see the edge bit pinched in, or the hard part will end in a line that runs across the spine, perpendicular to the length of the sword (usually slanty, but only very slightly; nothing one would mistake for a scarf weld).
Even in person, there is often no real visual cue to decide between a weld and a hardening line; logic concerning the shape of the line and its relation to any welded grain there may be are largely our tools. There is often a different look to a weld than a hardening line, but one cannot always rely on that in my experiece.

ian,
is that a bathead? better yet, and if you don't mind, can you post a "mugshot" of that baby? ;)

Ron:

It's just a common variety of Panay demon/deity figure. Pictures are attached below.

Ian.

thanks ian. i don't think it's a common type, is it? it seems like it's one of those diety hilt that belongs in "Others" category. it's not your typical round head, rhino horn diety like this dude right here ===> :D

Spunjer:

You're right to ask how common this particular form of deity hilt might be. I really don't know if this style is common. What I meant to say was that it is a deity hilt of the Panay/Negros form, which is a common finding on these older Visayan tenegre.

Ian.

I think it's a version of a zoomorphic/deity pommel that is common (the nose horn guy; seen some dispute as to who he is...); this particular form of the stylization is not common to my experience, but the subject is not particularly unusual. There are at least 3 standardized stylizations that, at least to me, all seem to be this same guy.

"Guy"?
Once again, sexism rears its ugly head (no pun intended).
Sorry, but I couldn't resist...while female deities/fetishes are sometimes prominent in African, Indian items and a few Indonesian pieces, I can't think of any in the Muslim tradition or those cultures closely associated with same.
Mike

These characters seem animistic and related to those used by other nearby peoples, and are probably pre-Islamic and pre-Christian in the area, I would think. Still, I've only heard any of these pommel deities referred to as male, and that could for all I know be a product of the observing culture, or of the observed. Hmmmm................

My garab definitely has a scarf-welded edge. ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper. Interesting thread found while searching for machete filipiana......

I have found this too on turn of the century Visayan pieces as well.......