You asked for it....
 

“I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld an eerie sight,
For my keris in the bath started to smoke,
And then suddenly I began to choke...
(It began to melt…)
It was in acid, Smash,
(It began to melt…)
I just put on a splash,
(It began to melt…)
I pulled it out in a flash,
(It began to melt…)
Now I’ve lost all my cash!" :rolleyes:

:D :D :D

Now, that is a good one!!! LOL :D

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

Fellas
 

Here's how it went down :

Tom :
" This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing. "

Nechesh :
" Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials. "

Tom:
" Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos. "

Nechesh :
" Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys , I certainly hope that you can possibly settle your differences via PM (personal message) I would be quite unhappy to see this thread get ugly .

If this is not an option for you then I would politely suggest that you both "explore the function of the 'Ignore' feature" to quote an esteemed moderator on this forum .

Hey Captain!
 

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright. :o

Sorry Tom, i can assure you that there is absolutely NO bitterness or anger in my commentary, towards you or anyone else participating in this thread. Obviously i misunderstood your meaning, but if you re-read your statement again, perhaps you can see that the sentence structure you used could lend itself to my interpretation. I seriously had NO intent to twist your words for the sake of an argument. I had NO intent nor reason to attack you. I must also say that while i can accept the responsibilty for my own misunderstandings, i in no way am willing to consider myself representative of those who choose not to speak on this forum, nor do i take responsibility for any more than the words i actually wrote. You go on to suggest that:
"So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible."
I agree, so why would you be reading between my lines looking for anger and bitterness that does not exist? You have not threatened my paradigm with any great truths, i assure you; truth is relative anyway, both yours and mine, and there is no use getting one's panties in a twist about them.
I agree with Rick that if we need further clarification and understanding that we should take it to PM, but for the record i did feel the need to address your comments in a public forum.Once again, sorry for any misunderstanding. :)

no harm, no foul
 

Though (perhaps for reasons of brevity/editorial clarity) Rick's recap left me hanging on them, both BSMStar (who posted the skeleton pic) and Battara had also expressed concerns in the matter, as I have already said. As far as a simple misunderstanding goes, hey, no problem, and if the shoes even do fit, that doesn't mean you have to keep wearing them (that, and not to be insulting or smartassed, BTW, was why I said it may not be reasonable or possible to not read into people's words, for instance; I noticed I'd done what I didn't like, and couldn't see any way entirely not to do it; so I thought I'd at least point out the inconsistency.....); I don't think it's clear to....maybe anyone else.....that I actually, really was not addressing nechesh and his concerns particular per se as such, but the world at large and its concerns, and that seems like the only fact I haven't already made clear about the matter; seems clear to me. No offense taken, no offense intended; no harm, no foul. That's my last public word on that.

Hey Captain!
 

Are you out there? :)

Hi BSM ,
My two cents worth of advice to you would be to treat and gently remove the rust . As for trying different and untraditional chemicals on a Jawa keris ; if I were you I would ascertain the age , quality , and value (not necessarily monetary) of such a blade before undertaking such a project . There are places that you can send the blade to have a traditional staining job done .

Smashy's piece is a Bali keris , smooth ; but your Jawa blade is likely rough . Please try to remember that these are cultural artifacts and one's responsibility as a collector is to "First do no harm" and as cultural artifacts they are due a certain amount of respect .

Now if you know for a fact that this blade of yours is a piece made to sell to the Western market and it is a piece of crap to boot then that may change things ; but PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

HI BSMStar :) show some pics of the blade or PM me some and we can discuss what to do :D

Hi All,

Let me assure you (and I guess I did not explain myself well :o ) that I would not attempt to etch and stain a "good" blade.

Rick, I fully agree with you. But let me ask a question... If the Javanese sell a keris in plastic dress (yes the sheath and hilt are plastic) to the "tourist" market, it is rusty and has no warangan stain left, do they consider it to be junk?

To me, the blade may be early 20c or late 19c, but I am not an expert.

I have no intention to grind, sand or polish the blade. I just want to remove the rust and restain it. As I have stated before, less is more... and I have etched my share of iron meteorites and I have not lost one yet :) The only question in my mind is the staining... I may end up with a totally black blade (but that would be an improvement over its current condition) of course I will stain it slowly and stop the process if I need to (etching I have done, staining is a new thing for me with a keris). I do not foresee damaging the blade in any way; the stain can be removed by a proper acid etch again. Then I would have a clean shiny blade that would need to be properly stained.

I will post pictures as my schedule allows.

FYI, LabanTayo has seen this keris.

Hi Rick,

Remember my thread on the possible Pajajaran keris? It's likely to be 600 to 800 years old. I'll share a towel with you. :(

I have no intention to allow this to happen to even a "junker" keris. If it is a keris worth saving, it is an object worth respecting... and to not allow that kind of damage to occur by my action. I am confident in what I can do... but the stain.

Hi Tom,

This picture came out of Java. That is why I suspected it was done on purpose to "age" the blade. I believe it is a newly made blade of "low" quality... but it did not deserve to be treated like that (I am sure with the intent to push it off as an old blade if it worked :mad: ).

Hi BSMstar , from your description it sounds like a good candidate for an experiment in the adventures of staining . :)

I tend to over dramatize when it comes to altering an original piece .
I also tend to apply this warning as a stock answer just for the sake of consistency .

Please pardon any offense my earlier reply to you may have caused . :o
I am sure that you will do no harm . :)

Looking forward to watching the process as you report .

Rick

BTW, my sentence structure was a bit complex, but it was Rick's example I've seen as bad as and worse than many times; the other one, the one you could read through is a particularly badly-off example though; much worse than Rick's, IMHO :( The poor thing......

Hi Rick!

It is very difficult to cause offense to me... and no pardon need, no offense taken. You are correct to remind and warn us of what we are about to under take (and not to do so lightly). I am just a student of life like everyone else... But, you have my permission to beat me in public if I ever do anything to a keris, the likes of what was done to the keris in the pictures we have shown!!! (My wife will gladly help... btw, she doesn't need a reason, she would just be glad to help anyway, just let her know when to show up). :D :D :D

I hope the only modification that occurs is the appearance of the keris being stained. Otherwise, visually there should be no other changes. I will start another thread when I gather all the materials and I am ready to start. I think LabanTayo wants to observe if he can swing it.

Captain... I am interested in your warangan or staining process, anything special to not have the nickel blacken? Extra steps?

Hey Wayne, have you checked out this past thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
Wong Desa gives a recommendation of method that you might like to try. I have used it myself with fairly good results. My suggestion would be to make sure that all the water you use is distilled and the air temperature is also an important factor. I seem to have given some people the impression that i don't believe we should try ti improve keris, just preserve. This could not be further from the truth. :)

Hi nechesh,

I understand... this is an emotional subject, which most do not realize until it bits them... For me, I am just as passionate as anyone about preserving and not damaging the least significant of these fine treasures of Indonesia. Once lost, they are lost forever! Truly, I understand both sides of the issue, and would not bring to harm a fine keris (or even a not so fine keris).

Thanks for the link, although I have already come across it in my searching. Have you tried the Arsenic Trioxide approach? I would be surprised if it works unless there is an element of sulfur involved… or my chemistry my have to go back to the drawing board. One of my fellow Chemist ended up agreeing with my assumption of the Sulfur ion exchange to Iron (independently, btw, I have worked in an R&D Lab for over 23 years)… but if Arsenic Trioxide (if it is not a brand name, or chemically more to it) created a black stain, well… I’m more than a bit confused. But, that’s the fun of it.

Arsenic Trioxide plus liver of sulpher perhaps ?
Remember I am no chemist . :)

Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy :D

I think I'll pass. :o

Yep, Tom, that's the way my mom made liver as well. :( :D
No Wayne, I just used the arsenic trioxide, just as specified by the formula in the thread i passed on. It works just fine. :)

BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel. :)

OK nechesh.

I have posted a new thread... Plastic Keris. There you will see what it looks like now.

Thanks Smashy!

If my memory is correct (and I am getting older, so don't hold me to it), Potassium Sulfide reacts more quickly than traditional Warangan. So I will start with a more dilute solution. I will experiment on the pesi first and see what happens. Thanks for the help. :D :D :D

arsenic trioxide (As2O3)
 

I been looking for Arsenic Trioxide (As2O3)... and I found it, it is a bit pricey. I still think Potassium Sulfide will do the trick (its cheap and safer to use), it will make silver black! It is used to make patinas on other metals too. I guess we'll see what happens...

Wayne, when i bought my arsenic it was $25 a gram, but the hazzardous material fee was almost as much as the arsenic itself. But using the method i use actually uses very little at a time, so i still have a bit left. You will probably get a good effect from potassium sulfide, but i doubt you will get the "correct" color for the particular iron of your blade. Given the keris you are experimenting on this might not be a big concern, but it would probably make a difference in a cultural context.

Hi Wayne , I have even run into problems getting one (yes I sin) particular keris blade even clean enough for staining . I washed it with every available solvent from acetone to paint stripper , long soaks , strong detergent afterward . Then I would put it in my oven to warm it for staining and it still reeked of sandalwood oil , even after repeated efforts . The blade seemed to be impregnated through and through with the stuff .

I have tried Liver of sulpher (get out your gas mask!) on blades with no success . I think I've also used Muriatic , FECL , most anything I could find that was readily available . It will be interesting to see what your results will be .

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the heads up!

If you have any contamination from oils, staining will not occur.

The blade I have pictured, smells kind of like ivory soap. It has been washed and blacked (maybe ink like a magic maker?) but not oiled. Maybe I'll get lucky and not have to work through the oil problem?

Muriatic or Hydrochloric Acid (HCI) could be used to etch the blade, but would do so poorly on its own.

FECL (I assume you mean Ferric Chloride) is also mildly acidic and used widely to etch blades.

I do not think either of these will remove oil. Generally, solvents would be your best approach (you may have to immerse the blade over nite, scrub and repeat until the oil is removed), if you know what solvent would break down or dissolve the oil you are dealing with (you may have more than just natural organic oils, but mineral oil and other synthetic oils, which would likely need a different solvent to efficiently remove it). Unfortunately, you have to know the oil you are removing to know what solvent to use.

Once you are down to bare metal, Potassium Sulfide will blacken the iron. And yes, it creates some H2S (hydrogen sulfide, btw.. it is toxic), the good ole rotten egg smell (it can't be any worse than my wife’s feet, can it?). :D That's why I use it outside with plenty of ventilation.

I will show the good, the bad and the ugly (sounds like a movie).

Hi Wayne ,
I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil .
Any other solvent suggestions ?

Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ?

Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ? ;) :D

One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum ! :D :D

strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

Hi Rick,

Although I work with the stuff, I'll ask a "higher" order and see what response I get. Our application is a bit different. I fear that most of the solvents I have access to, you may have a little difficulty in finding (do you know a local paint chemist??? they could hook you up).

FeCl3... I was lazy with Caps and lower case back in my college days... did I catch heck for it (and then the professor started marking my grades down for it... that fixed the problem).

They got the stuff on the net (you may want to surf for a better deal)... but since you are almost a neighbor, you can try Cole Parmer:
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=852&sku=&sel=
Cat #7778-80-5, 500 grams for $27.80

Rick, what can I say... She loves me! (maybe you can show me the secret Staff delete key?) :D :D :D

Isopropanol will not hurt a blade, there is 1n-butylnol, methanol and ethanol, all are alcohol solvents that have different "cutting" properties and will not hurt a blade. All of these alcohols are toxic to some degree (keep off the ethanol, mama always said it was bad).

Sorry, I not knowledgeable enough in this area to recommend to best.

Two products i know for removeing oils are cellulos thinners and panel whipe[alittle milder] these are both used in the auto paint industry and are standard products ,i used panel whipe on the bali blade,it is designed to remove ANY oils from a section of car bodywork before it is sprayed[even the oil from a finger print will react with the paint].Personaly id try soaking the blade in cellulos thinners for 24hrs with an ocasional skrub with an old toothbrush that should do the trick :)

Hey Smashy,

Thanks for the info... I only hope my venture looks half as good as yours! :)

Yeah, you really shouldn't breathe any of these cleaning solutions; in a closed room you can get drunk on isopropyl fumes real fast, and you know that's not good for you. More expensive, but I don't think there's any reason pure grain alcohol shouln't be similar, and not as bad for you, but ventilation is the main thing; I like to do things anywhere between a room with open windows to outside, depending on toxicity, etc.

Great Etching/Soaking Containers .
 

If you want to use a glass vessel which makes it easy to watch the process in action for better control try a Florists shop ; they most always have very tall ,reasonably inexpensive tapered glass vases . My example is 22.5" tall X 4.25" at the opening .

There's also the PVC pipe route but it offers no visibility while etching .

Rick,

After hobnobbing with my fellow wizards... hmmm, I mean chemist (sorry, that was the Wizard of Oz coming out):

Wash the blade in a solution of TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), and rinse well with water. Dry. Then use either VM&P Naphtha (faster evaporating) or Mineral Spirits (slower evaporating) to solvent wash/soak the blade. Do not substitute charcoal lighter fluid (it is usually Mineral Spirits with contaminates that prevent it from being used as Mineral Spirits). Be aware that both solvents are flamable, do not use near sparks or open flame. Use outdoors with plenty of ventilation!

TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), a detergent.

VM & P Naphtha - A fast evaporating, clear, colorless aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent. Used primarily to thin exterior or interior oil based paints, varnishes and enamels for spray applications where mineral spirits drying time is to slow.

Mineral Spirits - A thinner for oil based paints, enamels, varnishes, stains, etc. Ideal for cleaning brushes or rollers. An excellent solvent for oil, grease, tar and wax.

All of these are available in a hardware store.

Wayne,
You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ? :eek: :D

You know TSP had entirely slipped my mind and I used to paint houses , what can I say but DOH !! :o

Thanks for the jog . :D