I note from Forum athttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=97452 #5 the picture below

War Scythes.
 

Please see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...3D72E20A96F73D

I think the above reference well supports the idea of the Scythe used in war.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Monmouth rebellion
 

Fantastic account of Monmouth's ill fated rebellion. I mentioned it briefly in my Shotley Bridge history but had never delved deeply into the affair. Brilliant account. Thank-you.

The scythe as a weapon is something that has puzzled me for a long time, principally because 60 or so years back I had a weekend job clearing neglected building blocks that had become overgrown with grass, and I used a scythe to do the work, I could not understand how a scythe blade could possibly be mounted on a pole, the way the pictures I had available back then showed it as a weapon, the tang & mounting hook on the only scythes I knew where not straight, but were bent at a couple of angles.

Then there was the memory of what I had been taught in high school, that the English scythe had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Scythians known to the Romans, apparently the word "Scythian" & "Scythia" as they were Anglicised , had come from an old Persian word meaning shepherd(?), and that old Persian word had gone through several transliterations and corruptions before it came into Old English in a form that can no longer be spelt with English letters, thus another corruption took place & we finished with with "scythe", & that was a tool.

Is it possible that the tool we now know as a scythe is in fact not related at all to the sword-like weapon that resembles a scythe in form? Thus two objects, a tool, & a weapon that do have similarities, but are of totally different origin.

Can anybody clarify this matter for me?

Thank you.

Greetings AG Maisey,...The word "scythe" derives from Old English siðe. In Middle English and later, it was usually spelt sithe or sythe. However, in the 15th century some writers began to use the sc- spelling as they thought (wrongly) the word was related to the Latin scindere (meaning "to cut")

That must mean that the word Scythe the cutting tool has nothing to do with Scythia the country as it is a spelling mistake. The name Scythia ...the country does appear to mean country of the nomads...actually brilliant horsemen...which I suppose is the same as sheep or goat herders..or shepherds.....thus SCYTHIA was the name that stuck...

I have tried to show how the tool became modified as a weapon..and although there is even a Fektbok illustrating duelling Scythes unmodified it is clear that the Polish were leading the field in using the weapon as a sort of spear/ pole weapon...but that it also appears on other countries armouries and seen in many English battles.
I have seen Artwork of a Jacobite battle where Scythes were used and in that incident an English officer had been killed by being struck by a Scythe so modified... But I cannot find the artwork!!... so annoying when that happens... As it happens the swordmakers of Shotley Bridge made agricultural tools and one of those was Scythes...

Regards,Peter Hudson.

Thank you for your response Peter.

So it seems that things are pretty much as I thought them to be.

The Oxford Dictionary on Historical principles places first usage of the current spelling in the early 1500's, and as you have demonstrated we simply do not have the necessary tools to write the word as it was written originally.

Yes, I understand that the Scythians of the ancient Greeks & Romans were a nomadic people, but I suspect that a close examination of the etymology of "Scythian" might well provide a different root.

As to actual working scythes being used as weapons, I guess they could have been, one thought that comes to mind immediately is that they might be very useful in removing the lower parts of a horse's leg --- or a man's leg for that matter. Echoes of MP & the Search for the Holy Grail.

Yes I think your final paragraph has it...Where a word becomes muddled in meaning because of mis spelling I think that has thrown people here ...My notes above have focussed on the war scythe and the facts seem to point at fairly extensive useage of the modified Scythr as a type of peasant spear cheap and easy to modify and lethal against Cavalry ...and infantry.
The area that has little meat on its bones is in the use of teh Scythe blade as a backsword as the only viable form appears here...and is only a sketch but is intersting;

please see https ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe_sword


That sword sketch can also be seen at #3 above.

The scythe sword of Thomas Müntzer and a representation of the "summer" half of its runic calendar.
The scythe sword (Sensenschwert) was a type of single-edged sword of the German Renaissance, related to the Dussack. It consisted of the blade of a scythe to which a sword hilt was attached. Like the falx or falcata of antiquity, it was thus a curved sword with the cutting edge on the inside (as opposed to the scimitar or sabre type with the edge on the outside).

The only known surviving example of a true scythe sword (its blade being made from an actual scythe), is that of Thomas Müntzer (1489–1525), kept in the Historical Museum, Dresden. This sword has a representation of a runic calendar incised on the blade. Demmin (1893) notes the existence of other sword blades of the early 16th century bearing runic calendars in Berlin, Vienna, Paris, Munich, Graz and Luxembourg.

It is possible that "scythe sword" may refer to the Thracian romphaia (Greek: ῥομφαία), most commonly a long curved blade with its[1] cutting edge on the concave or inside edge with a piercing point, attached to a pole (wood handle) that's shorter than the blade.

The Thracian romphaia is often compared to a Dacian falx, a longer version of a romphaia.

The romphaia was a close-combat bladed weapon used by the Thracians as early as 350–400 BC.

The two-handed falx is clearly related to the Thracian rhomphaia. It is a derivative of both the sword and the spear, used by the Dacians.

Both the romphaia and falx weapons were made in one hand and two handed versions. Most surviving examples suggest the smaller shorter "one hand" type actually would have been "hand and a half", where the second hand was used more as a lever to make strokes, thrusts, recoveries and angle of attack changes more rapid and fluid.

So, "scythe sword" could refer to a romphaia, or falx possibly.

Battle of Frankenhausen 1525. War Scythe.
 

Here is an artwork worth noting for its illustration of a modified Scythe used in the centre against a mounted Knight ... This was in the early 1500s. This underscores the use of such improvised agricultural tools in war.

Please see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...._Mai_1525.jpg

Battle of Frankenhausen 1525
 

Here is that picture...

Thank you Peter.

This area of weaponry is a very long way from my own area of interest, & I freely admit I know very little about ancient European weaponry, however, to my eye there is a glaring anomaly in the foremost scythe-like blade in this picture.

I refer to the scythe-like weapon held by the man in the red jacket, front centre.

The blade of this weapon appears to be affixed to the shaft with a socket mounting.

I am not some sort of expert on the development history of scythes, but every scythe I have ever seen, every picture of a scythe I have ever seen, has the blade mounted at 90 degrees to the shaft, the scythe is used parrallel to & a little above ground level, it is used by putting the whole weight of the body behind the swing of the blade, the ergometric action comes from waist and shoulders.

The scythe as a tool cannot have a socket mounted blade, and for a smith to remove the original tang mount and replace with a socket would require smithing work that would be perhaps more difficult than to make a new blade.

Perhaps, because of material shortages this might have been done, but it seems to me that to make a scythe-like blade would be a whole lot easier than to take a perfectly good tool and try to turn it into a functional weapon.

The scythe blade in large part owes its effectiveness as a harvesting tool to its very thin blade supported by a heavy back, to remove the tang and replace with a socket, & then to remove the socket & replace with a tang when conflict was over, would be an expensive & relatively difficult exercise.

Is it possible that the type of scythe-like weapon shown in this picture was in fact a purpose made weapon, not a converted farmer's tool?

It was apparently an easy job for a blacksmith to take the Scythe Blade off and re align the connection for a shaft so that the blade became a spear like extension . That is apparent in English and Polish examples of this weapon. Making a sword would be more complicated ...perhaps that is why not so many sword examples exist...

Actually post 37 shows the different stages a scythe blade needed to go through to do the work...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...3D72E20A96F73D

This webpage above is full of historical examples of Scythes in a war role and has also set out several methods by which a Scythe can be converted to a weapon. The original stath or scythe pole is ditched for a longer straight pole and various methods are noted for attaching the blade to its new pole.

Peter Hudson.

Thank you Peter, that Cambridge article needs a close look.

I do understand forge work very well, and if the angled tang is simply reforged to a straight tang, then that is a quick, easy job and easy to reverse. My problem with the red jacket man in the pic is that the blade looks to have a socket rather than a tang, but maybe we're seeing a ferrule rather than a socket, in which case the blade could have a straight tang.

A quick glance at the Cambridge article shows that sometimes mechanical means were used to provide a blade mounting, this is something that did not occur to me, but I guess in desperate times it becomes a matter of whatever will fill the need is used, without too much thought of integrity or durability.

The idea that making a sword is complicated depends totally upon the quality of the sword. To make a functional blade that could be mounted as a sword is not at all a difficult nor a lengthy job, but to make a quality blade and then mount it as a quality sword is not easy work, nor is it work that takes a short period of time. Saturday night Specials are inexpensive, elegant weapons can cost a kingdom. Perhaps the reason for a small population of swords might be related to several reasons & could embrace both economic and hierarchical reasons?

Thank you for assisting my understanding.

The sensenschwert image, for future reference.

Yes but its already placed at #3.

Forging War Scythes.
 

Finally an imptression of the way Scythes were modified on the forge...

Truly Peter?

I can see people working at an anvil with hot metal, & I can see blades that I guess are scythe blades on the floor with modified tangs, but are the men working at the anvil supposed to be modifying a scythe tang?

Yes. Posts 41 and 37 both show the different stages to go through to modify the Scythe blades . The soldiers are waiting in the Forge picture above with poles waiting to be fitted as spears and as illustrated in the earlier battle scenes.

Peter Hudson.

1831 PolishScythemen fighting Rusian Cavalry.
 

Thank you for your response Peter.

I do appreciate your clarification of my understanding of the scythe as a weapon.

I believe that what we can see on the anvil is a billet and it appears to be being forged out to a different dimension, so perhaps what the smith is working on is intended for use in mounting the already modified blade to shaft, I cannot see how it relates to the modification of the blade, but it might relate to the mounting of the blade.

Not relevant.

Not relevant.

Not relevant.

Ah yes .The German Fektbok illuatrations.
These publications were aimed at the aristocratic members of the various fight schools as can be seen by the portrayal of men dressed in the latest fashions of the day. The participants shown are not the peasant members of European society...

I therefor ruled them out of the equation early on since this is not how Scythes were used in war. Imagine an opponent with a spear or sword opposing...

The whole idea behind war scythes was that they were available and cheap to use and training took a few minutes. The War Scythes were designed for the masses. It was a spearing jabbing slashing chopping weapon...

No one in their right mind would go into a battle armed with the scythe shown in this way nor would they be dressed like princes at court...

The blades were taken off and refitted reforged/ and reinforced where required and fitted for their new role as Pole arms. New straight longer wooden poles were required... thus this agricultural tool went to war.

Battle of Prestonpans. 1746.
 

From Origins of a New Regiment by Allan Mallinson Page 5. I Quote" It was all over in less than 10 minutes; Colonel Gardiner (CO of The 13th Dragoons) was killed trying to rally his and other troops; A highlander cut him down from his horse with a Scythe fastened to a pole and as he fell another highlander delivered a mortal blow to the head with a battle axe".Unquote.

Regards Peter Hudson.

A further illustration showing The Scythe as a Weapon....
 

for interest see https://www.geriwalton.com/legendary...y-joseph-bara/

This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.

In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station.
Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms.

What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them.

With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking.

The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner.

Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here).
In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel).

Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms.

Ditto !

Hello Jim and thank you for posting this informative detail. I covered earlier how this strange sounding device appeared to have been wrongly named in history and how it became Scythe rather than perhaps Sithe. (# 44 and #45 of this thread refers.) But leaving the infamous whats in a name connundrum to one side ...I had been chasing something of a rumour about a scythe being used in the Jacobite campaign in 1745 ... Actully I noted that the date of Prestonpans was 1745 on my recent post above but when I went back to my post on the subject I must have missed the opportunity to make the relevant connection thus it still shows my error on the date that I hurriedly must have typed as 1746...Oops!

On the topic of Artwork showing the demise of the Commanding Officer of The English 13th Regiment it has been difficult to view the Artistic impressions available but the Account in the book by Allan Mallinson appears to be precise ...and in that two weapons in particular had been key to bringing down the CO from his horse...The Scythe ...and then his death by a second highlander using an axe probably the famous Jedburgh Axe ... Certainly the picture I have now found below has in it a very clear image of what can only be A Scythe and typically refitted on a long pole was how the commander, Colonel Gardiner of The 13th was knocked off his horse. Interestingly the Artist has placed a highlander right behind the Scytheman carrying one of those axes. The Painting is from https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click

Regards, Peter Hudson.

nit-picking
 

Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that.
It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways.
It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended).
Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements.
Please excuse my late appearance.

Hello Keith, Oh I thought so...and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... I think it is often dangerous or feels dodgey going out on a limb so far ... and with seemingly absolutely no interaction coming back for what seems like ages... AG Maisey picked up on the interesting word conundrum at his #44 which I might have missed ... .. By the way your detail on SCYTHES Being made at Shotley Bridge was very interesting... I recall a distant memory of looking at the garden spades in my Grandfathers shed which were stamped on the blade with the Shotley Bridge mark...That was when I was about 8... Anyway this thread gives us a chance to tie a lot of stuff in about Scythes being used in Partisan battles ... It also reminds me to try to picture the old Scythe I handled on my Scythe Course near Otterburn a year or two ago which was a Flambouyant bladed item; super sharp but without blademarks ... but what was eye opening was the apparently ancient sharpening tools that all Scythe users are taught... which consists of little wheels and a toffee hammer...and a sharpening stone and which in my view leads us back to the strange sword sharpening system probably used at Shotley Bridge in some form ...I wonder if those little wheels were used on Rapiers or Colchemardes...at Shotley Bridge... The key word is Peening I think.

Regards Peter Hudson

Quotations ...
 

Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !



-

I thought that system worked best on a softer blade and served to work harden a small section of the edge that then was maintained with a stone till the hardened section was used up? It seems that the temper on a small sword would be too hard?

"and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... "

I ran across some images a while back of forward curving swords in "Diderot's L'Encyclopedie, Art de L'escrime " that I thought i would share. Two have a forward curving blade complete with a cross section (non-scythelike) in the second plate. The third has some sheathed blades with guards that could indicate a forward curve, but more likely an artistic error.

Secondly, I have attached some pictures of a modern North American scythe to help clarify the issue on tangs. I do not know if Europe used this same system. To me the tang looks easily adaptable with only a few heats to a pole arm. The tang could be lengthened with a scarp weld and reinforced with a long sleave to add strength and some defense against being cut. This combination was used in some early middle age spears to my understanding.

SCYTHE FORMAT AND OTHER ARTWORK
 

Dear Interested Party,
Thank you for posting the accurate research illustrating sketches of Scythe blades ...and the other curved shaped blades from Fourbisseur references etc. The tangs on the Scythes are accurate and I believe you are correct in writing that the straightening out process would be simple and fast; converting this agricultural tool to a rudimentary but effective pole arm. This is great support and is good to see from Forum.
Regards, Peter Hudson.

Polish soldiers armed with War Scythes praying before the battle...
 

The Scythe as a weapon clearly illustrated by the Artist.. Józef Chełmoński.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Weapons Inventory City of Newcastle.
 

In the late 1600s it is written that included in the weapons were converted farming tools as weapons which were noted amongst others as SCYTHES.

1548: On this day, an inventory was taken of all the munitions
and ordnance of war held within Newcastle. These give us a
fascinating insight into the machinery of sixteenth-century
warfare, as well as Newcastle's often surprising provisions
for conflict. Most of the foot soldiers were equipped with
black bills (a hooked blade on a 5-6 feet long stick) or bows
-there were 2,ooo of each! Others had pikes (4oo), and demilances (250) with smaller numbers of staves. Also held in the
city were weapons made by converting farming equipment
- hedging bills, scythes, sickles and axes.

Just a minor late addition. In the interesting book Lotharingia by Simon Winder, he mentions in the chapter titled New Management at Hawk Castle that:

" In 1386 it was the turn Leopold III, Duke of Austria, who brought with him a specialised detachment of scythe troops to destroy the harvests as they headed south from Brugg. The Swiss killed him, together with a rich selection of local noblemen and most of his troops (including presumably the ones awkwardly carring only grass-cutting equipment) at the battle of Sempach."

Unfortunately he does not give a linked reference as to the source of this information.

DrD

On the web the battle of Sempach brings up this detail along with various artworks. Indeed the people carrying mowers were crop cutters and of no use in the battle. Interesting story Thanks.
Peter Hudson.