Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing. ;)
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Hullo jagabuwana, :)

It appears that I may have been too abrupt and thus been misunderstood.
For that I sincerely apologise. I was merely reiterating what I've often said in this room. No offence was taken. After all, the device on the side-panel states: 'kandel koelit'. :)
Of course I totally agree with what you stated. I'll happily listen-in at what transpires. I am here to learn.

All the best for the new year!

Hullo David, :)

Firstly, I generally agree with what you have stated.
However:"This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them."
If this is taken to apply to me, then I believe that you have misunderstood me.
By 'faith', I mean it in the generic sense.
In decades of research, I have always tried to trace data to their original source. I have found that some authors tend to have faith in their references and accept them as gospel, not checking their veracity; thus propagating any errors which occurred up the line.
So, no, I don't dismiss them. I merely check their veracity.
That's why I have confidence in my results.
I only contribute to a conversation (banter aside) if I think that it may have value, otherwise I am quite happy to sit back, watch and learn.
As an example of what I meant with faith as a bottom line:
People had 'faith' in this particular Nobel Prize scientist, until in a subsequent project, it was found that the scientist had 'manipulated'/'extrapolated' the results.
Similarly when I mention 'agama'. People immediately think 'religion'. My definition of agama: darmasiksa; traditional/holy/teaching doctrine(s).

I apologise for the rant, but I thought some clarification was needed.

All the best for the coming year!

As a fully qualified and dedicated cynic I have very few heros, but Sam Arbesman is one of them. In my shortlist, he is probably #1.

Sarangka Soenda (Soenda Sheaths)
 

Hullo everybody! :)

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards :)

Hullo Jean, :)
I am sorry to say that I am poverty-stricken wrt bibliography; so I pretty much have to rely on 'fieldwork'. In other words, I have not had access to the book you mention.
As I have previously mentioned in this forum somewhere, the motif on the scabbards represent tree-ferns (Cyathea, bot.). They symbolise the Soenda; 'the highlanders'. So the area covered is western Java (incl. part of Central Java).
The hilt is a stylised vegetal form of Ganesja= Gana Isja= lord of the Ganas, attendants of Siwa.

Best,

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody? :)

Hullo David, :)

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually. ;)

Best,

When it is not the same keris we see here! :shrug:

Hello Amuk,
I (and probably many other Forum members) would love that you publish a book or a pictures catalog of your rare items! :)
Regards

Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.

Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Good to know. The sheathed one, as has been noted, looks exactly like the example shown in Frey's book. So close that it does indeed seem to be the same keris.
Anyway, thanks for posting these unusual examples.

No definitely different. The fronds as they radiate out of the center of the wranka are 90 degrees different. The mendaks are not the same as well. But apparently there is a style that is very closely adhered to.

Thank you AM for posting all that you do. I look forward to them. I would love for any information you want to share to get out into the world as well.

Yes, you are correct. The picture by Fry is very small, after looking again with better light and a magnifying glass I see the differences. Also the fronds in front of the gandar go down instead of up. I have not the best eyes anymore. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Detlef

I attach the pic of the kris from Frey for reference and avoiding confusion in some posts....

a SOEMBER for all reasons …..
 

Hullo everybody! :)

All seems Quiet On The Western Front ….. hope it’s not a portent of the ‘new-normal’.

A light-hearted look, just for sharing. So please excuse the poor quality. Enjoy!

A SOEMBER For All Reasons ….. (OR: The Long, The Short and The Tall ….. OR: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly).

From left to right:
- ‘secret weapon’
- traditional occasion
- official occasion
- ‘I’ll show you my Pandjang’
- ‘Then I'll show you my Bangkinang’

Best,

Thanks! A lovely grouping! :)

Wowzer that last one is just about as long as I've seen any keris. Can you tell us anything more about it?
Interesting handle too - what's the material?

Hullo jagabuwana,

This may help:

Desc: Doehoeng Soember (bangkinang variant)
Char: Oepih-rai moentir, djanoer mentjar
Blade: LxOALxWxT=56x67x7.15x1.49cm.
Handle: Green-horn malati-motif w/ white-metal seloet
Wt: 462g.
Sheath: Wood majang w/ green-horn toe

Best,

According to Amuk's specs that keris panjang seems to be 56 cm. Pretty long, but not unheard of. Thought you might want another look at mine. It's blade is 58 cm, though i would not be surprised to find an even longer one. ;)
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=panjang

Tinggalan Karoehoen (heritage)
 

Hullo everybody! :)

Doing some 'spring-cleaning'. Thought the following may be of interest.

Best,

Thank you Amuk, I guess that "landean" designates the hilt (landeyan in Madura), what does PwahAtji mean?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

- landean/landéan/landeyan/landaian are the same, just different spelling/accent (c.f. apotheek/apotek/apoték/ apotik =apothecary/pharmacy); means handle.
- PwahAtji literally means “celestial and inconceivable/unimaginable” i.e. the ultimate essence beyond our ken.

Best,

Hullo Jean, :)

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

You may be right, but I believe itto be northern coast of western Java.

Best,

Hi Amuk. Why do you believe the hilt you have placed on this keris originated on the North Coast of Western Jawa? It clearly appears to be a coteng hilt.
Do you have some provenance for this assertion. Though i believe many people have traced the evolutionary origin of coteng and tajong hilts back to Jawa the primogenitor hilts that are usually pointed to are not the fully developed coteng or tajong forms. But if you could show evidence that such hilts did exist in Jawa back then you would have an important discovery. ;)

This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

Possibly. I honestly cannot judge from this one photograph. But even if made in Java to would not have been made for a Javanese keris and i am sure you agree that it is stylistically incorrect for this ensemble. While some culturally mixed keris ensembles may well have some legitimacy in ethnographic usage i would have a hard time seeing this mix of Javanese and Peninsula styles finding social acceptability in either culture.

DOEHOENG SANG WANGSADITIA
 

Hullo everybody! :)

Just thought I’d post about this familiar item. It feels the appropriate place. I’m sure better and more detailed pictures are available elsewhere in this room.

blade: Mahisah Toempeng 11Eloek
hilt: Wood Sang Manarah
meas.: 44x54x9cm.
sheath: Wood Djoengan Lemah Pakwan Radjapoetra
vintage: 1512

Best,

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated. :)

Haha, this kris is described in detail in the Krisdisk from Jensen (a precious picture reference for antique krisses) but subject to copyright.... You may see it upon your next trip to Vienna ;)

Copy of the page in question in the Krisdisk

Thanks Jean.
In order to take my "next" trip to Vienna i would have to have already taken my FIRST trip to Vienna. LOL! :D

And this is my own kris, the antique blade was unfortunately broken and shortened while piercing the body of an enemy :D
It was repaired & treated in Solo, and the scabbard was recently made by copying an old model.
Regards

The blade in its original condition.

DOEHOENG SANG NALÉNDRAPOETRA PREMANA
 

Hullo everybody! :)

Update for 1st picture of post #63 above.

Best,

As the sheath is a perfect fit for the blade, we can consider it to have been made for the Keris and thus original.