Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Ethnographic Weapons (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Significance of Beaded Edges/Borders on South Indian Weapons? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24755)

Jens Nordlunde 8th March 2019 04:20 PM

The Japamala or Mala is a praying string of beans used by the Hindus, Buddhiists, the Jains and some of the Sikhs.
Mostly there are 108 beans but other numbers can also be seen. The number of 108 is important as it can be devided with 9, and 9 is an important number.
For the rest of the explanation you can Google:-).

Jim McDougall 8th March 2019 09:42 PM

Very good point Ibrahiim about use of beaded edges on architecture as its size is of course more conducive to larger decorative components.
Interesting note Jens on the Hindu prayer beads also used in these other faiths. It does seem that beads have religious connotation in most Faiths and may lend to ornamentation in many forms of material culture.

Nihl 8th March 2019 11:27 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Oh yes good job Ibrahiim on the link with jewelry and armor. Iirc there is an image of a similar vambrace in Elgood's Hindu A&R. Unfortunately I do not have the book with me currently so I am unable to reference exactly where it is. I did take a number of pictures of different figures from the book (the vambrace not being one of them), and in referencing those I was able to find a number of old swords with beaded edges on their hilts that were all dated to the 16th and 17th centuries.

While not to say that this counts as conclusive evidence, in doing a quick google image search of antique Indian jewelry there are numerous examples of pieces with beaded elements - borders and outlines and such. While of course this isn't exactly surprising as rows of precious stones or gilded spheres or what have you all look quite impressive, I think it does provide a bit more evidence towards the idea of it being a naturally evolving aesthetic. This design does also parallel the beaded edges on arms and armor, as both seem to only really be used to provide a border around the outside of the object.

As a side note, the lens that I am personally trying to solve this through is indeed one where these beads are a native invention of sorts and not one copied from foreign examples. Though I certainly don't doubt that there could be some European or other outside influence to it, it just seems to me that such a persistent reoccurring design has to has some sort of native meaning or origin point, even if it is just to make stuff look prettier.

Since I kinda brought it up, I'll look into the correlation between holy numbers and the numbers of "beads" on these objects in my own time, but I think for now establishing when exactly this aesthetic moved onto arms and armor (i.e. finding the earliest dated examples of it) would be the next best thing to do. Currently the earliest examples on swords all seem to date to the 17th century, and only a couple have been dated to the 16th century from what I've seen.

Included are some of the more obvious examples of beaded edges/borders/whatever on Indian jewelry (admittedly not all them are antiques though).

Mercenary 9th March 2019 01:55 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl
it just seems to me that such a persistent reoccurring design has to has some sort of native meaning or origin point, even if it is just to make stuff look prettier.

Very fair point.

Mercenary 9th March 2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl
This design does also parallel the beaded edges on arms and armor, as both seem to only really be used to provide a border around the outside of the object.

In architecture, there are also borders around the outside of the object. Is similar decoration used in Indian architecture?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 10th March 2019 08:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
In beads there is some aspect possibly linked to metalwork and thus designs in arms and armour. I think some care should be taken when looking at the beads above as they are possibly not all the same style of decoration and could be either small miri bota (leaf pattern) or small water mellon seed designs not the sort of border bead we are looking for... however, this is all good research as it allows members to focus on the various techniques involved. I think there is a distinction however between beadwork and bead impression in art and beadwork attached to textiles as well as bead work in metalwork… In Western India for example beadwork on textiles didn't arrive until the late 19th C according to the book attached below; The front cover has a band of beaded textile running above the title but this is far too late for our subject thus textiles may be sidelined in this respect.

Clearly we need to be on an earlier decorative form which Hindu jewellery does seem to indicate... It carries a much older ticket after all at about 4000 years.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 10th March 2019 08:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hindu jewellery… As a decorative form this specialization could well be linked in the distant past to metalworking in Arms and Armour. Here is a book with many examples in Hindu Jewellery which rather suggests a link.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 10th March 2019 08:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The next reference is an excellent pocket book on the Mughal Empire and rather confirms that architecture is not the medium in which this beaded border form is obvious perhaps because of my earlier thought on the difficulty of size … we are looking at Taj Mahal and Red Fort sized mega buildings and Temples and Mausoleums etc.

Mercenary 11th March 2019 12:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Hindu jewellery… As a decorative form this specialization could well be linked in the distant past to metalworking in Arms and Armour. Here is a book with many examples in Hindu Jewellery which rather suggests a link.

Very good research. Million thanks.

Mercenary 11th March 2019 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
... and rather confirms that architecture is not the medium in which this beaded border form is obvious perhaps ...

Absolutely right again.
Architectural forms are closely associated with either Buddhism or official Hinduism (it is clear that the Mughal architecture should be excluded from consideration). Our beads have another origin.

ariel 11th March 2019 05:07 PM

5 Attachment(s)
If you really want to go into architectural details, Google " crenellated wall india" ( couple of examples below)

Just pay attention: some images in this series are from Italy, West Africa, Jerusalem, France, Poland etc etc. Crenellation is one of the most popular architectural designs, originally intended for purely military purposes ( see three last images with very early European castle wall, predating Indian fancier examples ), but later becoming a decoration.

Personally, I doubt there is any symbolic or sacral connection between different crenellations ( architecture on the one hand vs. jewelry, weapons etc.).

And, re. your assertion that Mughal architecture should not be counted, the upper right image, with the prettiest onion-like crenellations, the closest to the decorative ones on the handles and jewelry, is a part of Taj Mahal, the ultimate Mughal architectural monument.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th March 2019 05:17 PM

Interesting additions Ariel and in particular the domes over what appear to be stone Chhatri on top of a Mausoleum or Palace .. Not quite the beaded dot we are looking at in the closer companion to those on arms and armour but an interesting study all the same. I was quite surprised at the crenellations which are taller than a man … and which appear as arches in the likeness to Islamic archways...which I think were amalgamated with Hindu arches by the Mughals.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th March 2019 05:30 PM

Interesting additions Ariel and in particular the domes over what appear to be stone Chhatri on top of a Mausoleum or Palace .. Not quite the beaded dot we are looking at in the closer companion to those on arms and armour but an interesting study all the same. I was quite surprised at the crenellations which are taller than a man … and which appear as arches in the likeness to Islamic archways...which I think were amalgamated with Hindu arches by the Mughals.

In fact from http://islamicarch.blogspot.com/~ Quote."Arches were not used in India before Islamic times where trabeate construction was the main method of roofing an area. However, arches were regarded as essential by the first Muslim rulers who built arched screens in front of trabeate structures such as the Quwwat al-Islam Mosque in Delhi. Even the screens of the earliest Indian mosques were not composed of true arches but were corbelled structures made to look like arches. So this is purely and souley Islamic architecture at it’s best!" Unquote.

ariel 11th March 2019 05:31 PM

I do not think these are Ch'hatris: just garden variety arches, another architectural detail hailing back at least to Roman times.
The last image is Damascus Gate in the wall of Old City, Jerusalem, built by Suleiman the Magnificient, 100+ years before Taj Mahal. Look at its crenellations.
And you are correct: Mughal borrowed from Hindu architecture the same way as other things. Not for nothing they were "Indo-Persian".

Jim McDougall 11th March 2019 05:31 PM

I think the architectural connections to edged weapon hilts in Hindu instances are indeed heavily connected, as well explained through many examples in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms & Ritual" (2004) and often discussed here over the years. Naturally the Hindu and Buddhist Faiths were in many circumstances syncretically aligned in degree, and the material culture often carried influences of their traditions and symbolism.

The Mughal arts, while deeply inspired by Persian verse and styles also seem to have often adopted of course elements of the Hindu and Buddhist artistic manner in degree. As noted, while Mughal architecture in India was certainly present , it does not seem necessarily prevalent in these kinds of decoration.

It does seem however that in the tulwar hilt, the flueret terminals of Deccani forms seem to reflect Muslim character, as do the distinctive langet style which have been suggested to resemble architectural elements such as the Mighrab. In other instances Muslim hilts pommels are sometimes believed to reflect the domes of Minarets.


While not necessarily relevent here of course, these suggestions and examples of Muslim architectural presence in hilts are simply noted as references in consideration. As Ibrahiim and Mercenary have both noted, Muslim/Mughal architecture I agree does not seem to be our influence source here.


Emphatically, the beads do seem to come from influences in other material culture and great examples shown here in textiles and especially jewellery.
I think one of the key references Jens has long used in the study of hilt designs and decoration is one on Indian jewellery (I cannot think of the title).

Jewellers have long been the artisans creating hilt decoration, regardless of culture and this has been the case into recent and modern times. They are the metalworkers skilled in the often flamboyant and detailed designs and application of precious stones etc. as well as inscribing, engraving and precious metal inlay.

It stands to reason that jewellery would provide influences and inspiration for many forms of decoration on hilts, the beading notwithstanding. While of course some sort of 'beading' might be found architecturally, I would think its influence subordinate to that of jewellery in this case.


On that note, personally I don't think of beading and crenellation in the same context in that crenellation is distinctly architectural, specifically in fortification design (in purpose) but often followed otherwise in design but in other architecture. It would not be used in the delicate manner of beading in my opinion.

ariel 11th March 2019 05:49 PM

Agree. Architecture is a dead end in the search for the origin of beading: no connection to jewelry in all its applications.


We are left with two possibilities:
1. Beading was just a " prettyfying" design, devoid of any deep significance.
2. Beading has deep sacral meaning. Proponents of this theory should find primary sources supporting this hypothesis.

Ren Ren 11th March 2019 06:17 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary
Absolutely right again.
Architectural forms are closely associated with either Buddhism... Our beads have another origin.

Sino-Tibetan style of Buddhist bronze sculpture. Beginning of the 15th century.

mross 11th March 2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
Agree. Architecture is a dead end in the search for the origin of beading: no connection to jewelry in all its applications.


We are left with two possibilities:
1. Beading was just a " prettyfying" design, devoid of any deep significance.
2. Beading has deep sacral meaning. Proponents of this theory should find primary sources supporting this hypothesis.

I'm going with #1. Simplest reason is usually the best.

Ren Ren 11th March 2019 07:08 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Courtesy of James McElhinney & Peter Dekker.
Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese under strong Tibetan influence.

ariel 11th March 2019 07:12 PM

Yes, there are beadings there.
But the question we are addressing here is not their existence ( this is beyond any argument), but their sacral meaning or absence thereof.

mross 11th March 2019 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
Yes, there are beadings there.
But the question we are addressing here is not their existence ( this is beyond any argument), but their sacral meaning or absence thereof.

There is information that can be inferred from both these statements. The fact that beading is so widespread( beyond any argument; also; beads in all the great pictures in this thread) sort of points to a decorative, embellishment secular factor.

Mercenary 11th March 2019 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren
Sino-Tibetan style of Buddhist bronze sculpture. Beginning of the 15th century.

In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?

Mercenary 11th March 2019 07:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
Yes, there are beadings there.
But the question we are addressing here is not their existence ( this is beyond any argument), but their sacral meaning or absence thereof.

My reverence

Mercenary 11th March 2019 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross
I'm going with #1. Simplest reason is usually the best.

The simplest reason for whom? For an atheist of the 21th century?

Jim McDougall 11th March 2019 08:52 PM

Actually 'Occams Razor' typically does prevail in most investigative cases, but not all of course. It does remarkably depend on the character and values of the investigation, and in reality in these kinds of cases it is difficult to classify subjective meanings to a particular decoration or symbol.

It becomes very much a 'Rorschach' test in a sense as different ideas will be the perceptions of different people. I think here we are seeking any possible or likely value or tradition which might apply to beaded decoration in South India.

I don't think that such views are in any way irreverent as expressed, and what is meant is that as often expressed, often decoration is applied aesthetically and perhaps may recall certain reverent or auspicious features. I think this is actually a respectful expression of a highly regarded element or form intended to enhance.

Ren Ren 11th March 2019 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary
In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?

Sculpture of the early 15th century, in accordance with the canons and rules of the 10th century. At a minimum, we can put aside talk about European influence.
The number of channels of Tibetan influence on the weapon style of China and Japan was very small. First of all, it is Tibetan Buddhism and its religious meaning.

ariel 12th March 2019 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary
In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?

Naturally. Hinduism is much older religion.

And, indeed.... what else?

Mercenary 12th March 2019 06:03 PM

We are all talking about the same thing, but from different points of view. It is clear that these beads are just embellishment (on weapons of 16-19th century, which we know and study). In ancient time, as I believe, real small bells could be attached to weapons, as it is sometimes found on weapons for Indian fests and performances. But we must understand that aesthetic perception is not taken from nowhere. If generations of Indian artists (from childhood to old age) had seen the three-beam star of Mercedes-Benz at all holidays and events around, it would find expression in art sooner or later.

Especially if this star had a sacral and ritual significance :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th March 2019 06:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Although I am still waiting for the key picture in this regard to upload>>>the raised dot style border>>>>>>> I can assure you that I have the definitive artefact in the bag! A tile from the MASOUD III PALACE in GAZNI Afghanistan in precisely this style> This was found to be pre Islamic Iranian ...the building was occupied up to 1221 but sacked by the Mongolians. The publication containing the item is shown below and is a British Museum publication. :shrug:

Mercenary 12th March 2019 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren
Sculpture of the early 15th century, in accordance with the canons and rules of the 10th century. At a minimum, we can put aside talk about European influence.

Take your time, colleague. We will definitely hear about Alexander the Great.

... already almost... As I can see.

Mercenary 12th March 2019 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
Naturally. Hinduism is much older religion.

And, indeed.... what else?

the differences in patterns of visual art

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th March 2019 08:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
THAT TILE . Here it is …This passage makes specific reference to these dotted/beaded border tiles as being pre Islamic Iranian and portraying mythical beasts with this very specific decoration with raised dots / bead style... in words to that effect... and being so early as to show promise in my view across the regions with perhaps transmission into the Indian Ocean areas as well as on Pilgrimages to Mecca? and into India.. Technical transfer of patterns took place as war trade and travel in the form of Pilgrimages and exploration was common as well as the bounty of winner takes all in wars... This also included the requisitioning of artisans who would frequently be transferred to the winning sides into schools of excellence royal court workshops and other centres of workmanship as a natural too ing and fro ing of expertise.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th March 2019 08:37 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Taking the jewellery making situation in tandem with the revelations on ceramics here are a few pictures showing Hindu work; clearly an ancient skill and the picture of the workers in India from a sketch of a Company workshop (EIC?) in 1850 and illustrating the handed down time proven techniques obviously going back many centuries along with the ancient dies illustrated also showing the beaded edge on several of the exhibits. The dotted border arm jewellery showing the very old Hindu Deity indicates an ancient form and where that style may have easily transferred to weapons arms and armour making as previously shown at #1 etc... coupled with the respect a beaded border had already been given in pre Islamic Iranian ceramics.. :shrug:

Ren Ren 12th March 2019 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary
Take your time, colleague. We will definitely hear about Alexander the Great.

You know that I am ready for this :)

Jim McDougall 12th March 2019 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren
You know that I am ready for this :)


Me too! Always ready to learn :) While it is unlikely to broadly assign the origin of the beaded. raised dot motif to any one source, it is interesting to see the uses and presence of it in various cultural and religious contexts through history.

mross 13th March 2019 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Me too! Always ready to learn :) While it is unlikely to broadly assign the origin of the beaded. raised dot motif to any one source, it is interesting to see the uses and presence of it in various cultural and religious contexts through history.

Not to hijack the thread, thou this may. I think it has been firmly established that the bead "embellishment" occurs across time and and culture. In America the Native Americans have a very long history of bead-work. I think a much more interesting question is; Why the bead?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 13th March 2019 08:12 PM

At #47 the illustrated publication rattles on at great lengths about the bead and its attachment to American Indian History not to mention the value as a trade item... Trade beads travelled the globe in this role. It is reasonable to assume the raised dot or to give it the correct term dome was associated with beads thus the term beaded border... weaving its way across jewellery, arms n armour and ceramics. Doming is in fact the name of the technique for producing this beaded effect in Jewellery making across the Hindu spectrum.

ariel 13th March 2019 08:34 PM

" Why the bead?"

I think because it all started with necklaces. We see them in virtually every archeological excavation and in every contemporary primitive culture : shell necklaces, nut necklaces, pebble necklaces, teeth necklaces... Europeans carried necklace beads to every corner of the Earth they traveled to as a "fair" exchange currency for gold, gems, spices, hides etc.
More technologically advanced non-European societies manufactured their own beads, initially likely for the same necklaces, then for prayer beads ( known in Greece since 17 century B.C.E.) and then it became just such a common prettyfying element, that it was used for many types of jewelry ( including sophisticated filigree) and any other object, including weapons.

PS. I missed Ibrahiim's post and agree with him completely. Again, I do not think we are talking about some highfalutin' sacral origins, just a practical approach at adorning our females :-)

Happy wife, - happy life.

mross 13th March 2019 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
At #47 the illustrated publication rattles on at great lengths about the bead and its attachment to American Indian History not to mention the value as a trade item... Trade beads travelled the globe in this role. It is reasonable to assume the raised dot or to give it the correct term dome was associated with beads thus the term beaded border... weaving its way across jewellery, arms n armour and ceramics. Doming is in fact the name of the technique for producing this beaded effect in Jewellery making across the Hindu spectrum.

Yes, but; Why beads? What is the significance of their use as trade, decoration, in some cases money? If we answer this we may be able to home in on the original question.

Nihl 14th March 2019 01:29 AM

Popping in again to give my 2 cents on what's being talked about.
Personally, I'm rather satisfied with the link to old decorative forms. As uninteresting as it may be, I concede that it does make the most sense. That said, I must raise the question as to what these beads or more broadly what necklaces or similarly decorated accessories meant in old Indian culture. A purely decorative motif is one thing, but when it's applied to humans all the time one (or at least I) can't help but think at some point it was given some sort of meaning. Another question - if the beaded edge (in A&A) is such a decorative motif, why is it not seen more frequently in status pieces (the belongings of royalty and so forth) and why are these beads not separately or distinctly decorated? My memory may be failing me on the former point, so feel free to post "museum quality" examples of beaded hilts and prove me wrong, but I can't recall the last time I saw a beaded hilt with any real fancy decoration. From what I can recall most extent hilts are either undecorated metal or covered in unbroken sheets of precious metal, instead of say, being decorated with koftgari in a manner separate from the rest of the hilt (gold covered beads but silver hilt, for example) or having actual jewels inlaid in the beads. Again, maybe there are some examples out there, but I at least can't remember seeing any. I guess I'm actually not fully satisfied with the beads being decorative just yet ;)

Also don't want to distract from the latest topic of "why beads?", but I personally have nothing to add to that.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.