Thank you for showing this Fernando, some of them I have never seen before.

HELLO JIM... What a great thread!!

I heard that the arc sign called variously hogs back or eye lash marks was a secret sign made by prisoners to signal to a visitor or onlooker that all was OK … Would that indicate that the dots were actually toes..? And taken from ancient tradition as three is an auspicious number in many structures. :shrug:

Thank you! It is good to see some traction in looking into these markings, which as noted regarding the typical lack of attention to explaining or any particular attention other than mentioning their presence.

These and many of the markings which were discussed over years in the trademarks thread have had many suggestions and explanations discussed, and most are of course apocryphal but indeed feasible in numerous cases.

What has brought us to these curious paired arcs (usually dentated) were the triple dots at the end of each arc. It seems certain such symbols may have been placed congruently with others to disguise them in degree.

As mentioned, in the case of 'dots' in Islamic parlance, in many cases the number and configuration may have simply been for 'luck', but with regard to the 'three' that may well have been with religious significance. It is always hard to guage just how much influence diffused into various cultures and regions from another, but the varied examples and cases can be estimated on their own merits.

I note that across the entire spectrum there appear certain key royal marks such as the Ottoman (Othmanli) Tughra although in this case below I show an Indian blade mark of Royal intent... The Parasol Mark. This mark thus appears as an imbuement to the other Talisman figures on these important weapons.

In addition it carries three dots atop the Parasol and second cartouche which is in Islamic script and flanked to one side by the Buduh square as well as ribbons of attribution to Religious Iconic figures; again in scripted gold style.

SEE https://auctionsimperial.hibid.com/l...=2&ref=catalog FOR THE SUPERB DESCRIPTION

Ibrahiim, could you possible turn the pictures so they will fit within the frame?
Thank you
Jens

... famous Imperial Parasol mark indicating it was owned by the Mughal Emperor...

Well in fact it was given by the Mughal emperor not owned... that's a huge difference... but still a royal provenance i agree

Well noted, and I think what is being observed are the various perceptions toward these distinct occurrences of the gold parasol on certain very high quality Indian blades.

There are suggestions that the parasol mark was indicative of the finest Persian blade makers for Royal patrons, and that this mark indicates Royal ownership or indeed for presentation deserving such recognition.
The blade in the link also carries the Assad Allah cartouche, which of course aligns with the suggestion regarding Persian blade makers. Along with that is the beduh square, which brings the character of this blade into the talismanic perspective which is themed in Ibrahiims observation.


The parasol as being discussed, can also have talismanic properties being symbolized (still in its Royal connotation) in that it is of course a protective device in character, in addition to its auspicious meaning representing in effect the 'dome of heaven'.


In many examples of the parasol marking the three dot device is included at the base of the handle, also the dangling fringe dots from the parasol dome are typically three on each side.

HELLO Jim ..I note the following thread here on EAA Library as full of detail on the PARASOL on MUGHAL weapons. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7165

In addition I add this dagger with Cartouche and Parasol as also of Royal linkage although in many cases not necessarily owned by the Emperor(BUT THIS ONE WAS SHAH JAHANs) but perhaps more his insignia denoting fine quality; probably made in a Royal Workshop. (The larger picture from the thread at para 1 at # 7 by RAND.)

Is it possible that the three dot form is in fact linked closely to Koranic script? ...see the picture of the very important red amulet below surrounded by the row of triple dots..With an important verse from the Koran inside the protective? dots.

This object is illustrated from the MET museum and incorporated at https://simergphotos.com/2013/02/19/...-muslim-world/

That is truly an interesting and compelling note !
The 'three' is a significant numeral in many contexts it seems, and as it transcends cultures and religions, superstitions, etc. it is perceived accordingly.

While obviously the three in Christianity signifies the Holy Trinity, but in other religions it has similar purpose but clearly different in definition.

It would be interesting to see more on this angle of the three dots in use!

Hello Jim,

The use in combination with Koranic script is most interesting and it seems there were no barriers on blades in using any of these marks singly or in multiples or all together. Thus I searched for evidence from the Religious script viewpoint and although the dots were not always used they certainly sometimes were.. I suspect their presence indicates a particularly important verse however what the exact meaning was meant to convey...protection from evil spirits or as some form of added sentinel or simply a good luck omen it is difficult to be certain.. diffusion in use across the different artefacts seems proven and below I have two forms ; one on Ceramic and the other on Islamic script.
On the tile is the clear three dot symbol of Tamberlane on a Turkish ceramic accompanied by the elusive second element of Tamerlanes marker... tiger stripes.

On the script and geometric covers of a rare pair of document covers at page 30 of TRM TAREQ RAJEB MUSEUMs 1994 DOCUMENT ...the actual contents being on page 31 which comprise Al-Shihabs Sayings of THE PROPHET(PBOH) written in Valencia 1172 AD. THE 3 DOTS in this case appearing just off the main page but seemingly guarding it. Notice also that the outer most border of the covers comprises a complete band of figure 3 and figure 5 dots...thus possibly signifying a kind of sentinel or guard line protecting the entire folder and inner document.

Yes the Cintamani (clouds?) is often shown with three dots or maybe it is a flower.
Hilt probably Deccan 17th century with a straight blade.
Catalogue pp. 313-314.

SEE https://www.academia.edu/17314322/_%...2007_pp._33-49

WHERE IF EVER AN academic paper brilliantly presented blows the entire roof clean off many of the ideas rumours legends and reasoning previously attempted on this great subject>>> The Cintamani Dots>

See below the amazing coat ...Short-sleeved kaftan with Cintamani motifs. Bursa, attributed to Mehmet II but probably 16th century. 13/6, Topkapı Saray Museum, Istanbul.

I thought it a good plan to place the Epilogue first since it is all encompassing but needs the research of the entire document. IT is brilliant>

Quote"Epilogue;

This paper has taken account of the infinitely complex way in which the triple-ball pattern was formed and became known as Cintamani in Ottoman art. Because of its immense impact on the art of the Ottoman period and modern times, a decorative peculiarity of three balls in the triangular arrangement has been celebrated by inviting yet confusing etymological stories. The misleading naming — Cintamani — has increased yet another perplexity and turned into one of the scholarly wonders in Islamic art studies. Clearly, this decorative motif is by no means a parody of Buddhist jewels. Its Turco-Iranian associations speak for itself. There is no intention to rehearse the Ottoman story of Cintamani — how the creative spark of Ottoman designers made this motif special; how the echo of Cintamani reached its climax in the design of ceramics in the 16th century and subsequently spread across variety of media; and how it became standardized due to its involvement in the mass market and lost its exquisite flavour in the 17th century. Yet in any case, Cintamani appears along the ebb and flow of Buddhist inspiration.

As the style mellowed, the triple-ball pattern lost its animal features and began to convey different artistic messages. Its talismanic function was by degrees enhanced in Ottoman contexts, combining the forms of a crescent; it was eventually incorporated into a symbol of Islam, the profession of faith, as exemplified in the design of Ottoman banners."Unquote.

Might and Magic: The Use of Talismans in Islamic Arms and Armor


On Islamic armour we haven't really set much in print here, however, please see https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/rumi...arms-and-armor and especially the armoured shirt where the individual rings are stamped with religious names... :shrug:

Another Iznic ceramic echos the Othmanli use of the 3 dot "cintimani" design.

The book on Suleyman The Magnificent has further illustrations in its vast volume including furniture< Koran holders< arrow quivers and a great historical account of The Ottoman Empire.

In Ottoman traditional designs we see a changing or morphing style perhaps magnified through the many different schools of design through centres of excellence, royal court workshops and different trades such as woodwork, calligraphy, textiles, carpet weaving, ceramics, armour makers and weapons workshops to name a few. here below are some further examples below. including impressions on coinage, various costumes and black and white sketches from old Turkish carpet design showing variety in the way the Cintimani was interpreted.

Note how the dots may change to diamond shapes or reflect moons and the animal stripe can float as a cloud design especially on carpets.
Generally Cintimani can be reflected by artisans using both dots and stripes or separately and the meaning can evolve from the Turkik tribal 3 way understanding of Sun... Sky... Fire... to a religious triple and perhaps finally to the all encompassing sign of the religion itself thus the Talisman meaning; of Islam; the overall protector.

Jens thank you for that great hilt entry!!! A perfect example of these unusual 'cintamani' combinations, and those 'lips' looking things do resemble clouds in a 'Rohrshach' kind of way.
Ibrahiim, thank you as well for the diligent research and entries here which are adding do much perspective to the topic.

It does seem that as with all kinds of symbolism or in many instances of intercultural exchange of influences, perception and semantics are going to have understandable differences.

For example, by way of analogy, the venerable European globe and cross, familiar as a key marking on German blades over several centuries, became a fixture not as a makers mark, but a kind of talismanic device which imbued protective properties as well as suggestion of high quality.

As these blades became traded into North Africa, the globe and cross was seen by natives in these regions as a drum and sticks, which were important in their culture as a status oriented symbol. Other markings which were often almost indeterminant in character were seen as (in one case) the fly, which odd as it sounds, to them represented the character of a great warrior.

There are many such examples and surely much the same in other cases where symbols and markings transcend cultural bounds.


I think obviously that the cintamani , referring to the three in figures usually dots, is much in this kind of situation which became a convention adopted broadly to represent what each group or culture perceived it to mean.

In many cases, of course such diffusion can lose deeper meanings and as applied in material culture items as decoration, becomes aesthetic in sense, but for our purposes we want to know the deeper meanings from their origins.


I once had a wonderful shamshir, which was clearly from Central Asia with an amazing instance of the three dot motif applied in linear fashion on the backstrap and other parts of the hilt. It was generally held that this use of the three dots represented the Turkic heritage of these people and of course heralding Tamerlane. In those times I could not associate this device (termed cintamani) with the 'gift giving jewel' in the usually described connotation. With this look into the deeper character of the term and its origins, it becomes much clearer.

So thank you Ibrahiim, and Jens, for adding all of this!!!

Thanks Jim for a great summary on the Talisman Cintimani subject which spans so many centuries and religions down the ages. In the book shown below which I highly recommend to members it describes the difficulty encountered by the Othmanli had immense problems dealing with beurocratic issues at the best of times but in the question of liaison among the different quality workshops it was very chaotic...even though it may be said that in war they had great ability in mastering logistics...in other areas this was not the case.

In fact there was an overall sort of pecking order or authority over other master works that the Royal calligraphers seemed to have but it simply didn't work... specialists in the different disciplines of high quality craftsmanship took the designs to whatever end they were moving...so the Cintimani moved from concept to concept and even split in two the three circles or ideas from the so called tigers stripes so that they often morphed into separate designs or placed in the composition in separate areas or both.

I digress but in support of more pictures here is my next set of quite amazing photographs worth seeing from the Othmanli period on this issue. The red Koran holder showing only dots while the brown Koran holder only wavy lines i.e. Tiger stripes now morphed into cloud patterns and also seen in Turkish Rugs...AND in the decoration of the shield also incorporating dots and cloud patterns but spread separately.

Note that the Ottoman ceramic bottle has clear designs of the Cintimani and the possible shape of the tiger stripes lending themselves to The Buddha lips idea.

A most peculiar painting of a Japanese 3 dotted alter with what seems to be a sacrifice with the perpetrator making an escape and the dead body laid in front of the three ball device? A pointer toward Buddhist involvement?

It is sometimes hard to maintain discourse and perspective with regard to the talismanic condition as often various marks, devices, phrases etc. become regarded as indicators of quality, status and heritage. With this being the case it seems almost necessary at times to include variations and applications which might exceed the specific talismanic denominator.

In the case of the 'cintimani' device of three orbs I previously noted as found in hilt motif on a shamshir, this perhaps may not have been applied in a 'talismanic' sense per se', but more of a commemorative or honorific sense recalling tribal heritage from Tamerlane.

Still, the deeper origins of the symbol from ancient Buddhist and Hindu tradition and dogma carried profound talismanic properties and varying perception and application. This then became associated with Tamerlane, diffusing into various cultures and their material culture.

As people see this marking in materials, weapons, markings etc. many may see the Tamerlane, Turkic perspective.....while many may perceive the deeper religious and talismanic properties of ancient Buddhism and Hinduism. Here are the varied concepts that Ibrahiim refers to, and fascinating as we look into all of them as we evaluate the properties and character involved in these cases.

Compare two designs ..One of Buddhist the other Ottoman form below..The linkage suggests the two are in some way related on the one hand the 8 auspicious Buddhist signs and the wavy line seen in carpets and textiles (here seen on a Koran wallet from the Ottoman style) and from the Cintimani tiger stripe sometimes also explained as the lips of the Buddha...seen on carpets etc as a W shaped cloud pattern...and comparable to the 8 auspicious Buddhist signs...actually on 7 of them below. :shrug:

AND I have to include Omani influenced weapons...with dots on blades. :shrug:

We discussed four dots marks on swords in an earlier thread. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=dots . The question whether they could be forge or foundry identification marks, or have religious or superstitious/talismanic functions. If I understand this thread correctly, the three dots seems to be a fairly universal talismanic symbol offering ”protection” and the four dots could be a stronger 360˚ version offering ”protection” viewed from all directions.

Great point !! Yes agreed and above you see the three khanjar blades with the centre blade protected in all directions and both sides of the blade left and right as well as on the reverse; thus stopping evil from entering blade or hilt...In fact hilts sometimes carry the dots separately as well.. extra empowerment seems to be attached when the dots are in gold or brass/copper material..and it seems Islamic script itself a Talisman sometimes gets the three or four dot treatment. (the 5 dot is in fact unrelated as it stands alone as another Talisman altogether and representative of the five fingers or hand of Fatima often linked to the evil eye protective motif..In fact the saying goes "Heres five in your eye" when that Talisman is illustrated) as below.

As seen on this thread other objects get a similar treatment and I wondered if the transition to moons came as a result of this Talisman although so far as I can deduce moons as such were reserved for blades? :shrug:

Gentlemens at this stage of the discussion
I would like to share with you one of the most important fact:
a line is made of two points.
;)

Are you saying we are getting a bit ”dotty” here?? :o

I hesitate to add that we are also going around in circles !!

The question of dots is hardly touched here but the general Talisman focuss I think is well being advanced>> The mathematical wizardry involved in astrology we have hardly noted yet it is vast and pulls in all the mysterious Talisman and magical wonders described by my illustration of the Swordsman built from a star chart in Persia in the early11thC.

Shown below;from the Suwar al-kawakib al-thabita of al-Sufi dated1009-10

For a final thrust from the side of proof and discussion looking from the Ottoman advantage I offer the book of Iznic Patterns from more than 10 of the worlds finest museums and 650 plus diagrams and pictures where the chinthimani/ cintimanii gets two full pages dedicated to patterns of Iznic ceramics. The period is known as RHODEAN and covers the early 17th C in artisan production there. :shrug:

Here is the book I spoke about above > and the early 17thC Rhodian period patterns; Chintamani :shrug:

KOUMIYYA with hand in silver(Hand of Fatima) decorating and protecting the weapon from evil; Moroccan superstition is bang up to date in the 21st century with such myths and legends and tradition is alive with ancient beliefs. :shrug:

This is a great representation of the use of the hand in Islamic talisman context. While this theme seems to be present broadly through the Dar al-Islam, it does seem to be represented in other manner geometically as in the shape of a triangle. In Central Asia this become a device known as the "Afghan Amulet' (if I recall there is a book by that title) which was used in similar context.
In the Sahara, the Kabyles used the triangular shape in a linear fashion on their familiar 'flyssa' swords and these along with other devices were intended in apotropaic fashion in the 'folk' religions nominally aligned with Islamic Faith.

These traditions extend through the Maghreb which of course include Morocco, and much of the Berber sphere.

This is truly an intriguing look into use of the 'cintamani' device so well known in 'Oriental' textiles applied in the design motifs on this pottery. From what I understand the term Iznic refers to the town in the 'Asia Minor' regions (Western Anatolia) and as well noted, the pottery they were known for.
The Ottoman empire of course transmitted this as well as many such artistic influences through their trade and colonization.

Excellent perspective in a venue I had not thought of, and well illustrates the many aspects of material culture outside the arms context which can help us learn more on the markings we find on them .

Good quip Victrix!

Indeed 'connecting the dots' can be a bit maddening as we try to make sense out of these conundrums, and as Ibrahiim has noted.....we can often seem to be going in circles ......but these discussions can systematically map out the situations and circustances for better investigation.

The knowledge base and diversity of the membership here is phenomenal, and there is no better place to bring these things into the light.


We all share in the adventure.......and 'the games afoot!!'. :)

Thank you Jim for balancing the thread so far. I was reading about Tipu Sultan (The Tiger of Mysore) and noted Talisman devices on the famous cannon also decorated in Tigers …from http://www.mia.org.qa/en/tigers-dream/tipu-cannon

Quote"
The triumphant lion of God.

Like many other objects in this exhibition, this cannon is laden with tigers and inscriptions. The tiger motif is most forcefully expressed by the snarling tiger heads at the muzzle (front), trunnions (on the sides) and cascabel (back) of the gun barrel. Within a pair of tiger stripes on the barrel, an inscription calls on the ‘triumphant lion of God’, a phrase found regularly in calligraphic designs of this period. This inscription also provides the place and date of manufacture, while the presence of the heart-shaped ‘Haydar’ talisman shows that the cannon was cast at the sultan’s foundry".Unquote.

Broadening the search I have to include Alem >>>THe Islamic battle standard that also spread onto some blades SEE https://no.pinterest.com/pin/2568459...64161/?lp=true

And for a bladed example On a Safavid sword below;

In searching for the perfect battle scene where the Alam is deployed as a battle banner in the role as a Psychological weapon I found this in https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions

Yet another amazing illustration!! Thank you for all the time you spend seeking all of these to help us better understand many of the salient points you place in these threads.

I am a bit puzzled on the 'alem', which is an item not often covered in discussions of Islamic arms. I had thought it was a metal device usually placed atop a pole, in the manner of a polearm or spear and was used as a guidon in forming and directing bodies of troops.

These it seems were often lavished with elaborate Quranic passages and symbolism (much as thuluth covered examples in Sudan), but I was not aware these included textile banners.


The talismanic (psychological) properties are clear however, as these kinds of inscriptions and invocations compel warriors as they move forward into battle.

Thanks Jim, I read that banners or more likely pennants were tied beneath Alam finials and soaked in the enemys blood would greatly empower the battle ensign (alam_) … See https://www.bing.com/images/search?...iri&FORM=HDRSC2 Below~

An interesting depiction of a procession typical of those of pilgrims going to Mecca with flags waving covered in emblems of their faith ...this was recorded as 13thC. It would seem reasonable that battle Alams would incorporate smaller pennants attached for added Talismanic power and inspired by similar religious flag inscriptions.

On closer inspection note Alam and flags as well as pennants are tied to the Alam poles.

Evidence of the Alam plus pennant tradition of combined flag and Alam which transferred to Battle Ensign style and it seems that the potent Talisman effect would be greatly enhanced by the pennants being covered in the blood of the opponents!

I searched for https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ri&FORM=HDRSC2 as to clues on the combination of flag/pennant and Alam and arrived at an astonishing artwork below ~

The procession which appears to be a wedding group parading along with musicians but led by the several Alam of rectangular form with finials with religious script and pennants tied high on the poles...again decorated in religious script.

Excellent!

It makes sense that pethaps the 'alem/alam' in concept as a talisman used as a battle standard as well might have the term used more broadly. I think that the term 'talisman' may extend beyond its well known definition of protection and bringing good fortune to that of inspiration in a sense.


These factors are certainly in mind in battle, and warriors would be more inspired to fight with these elements present..........inspiration.

We know that inscriptions such as the thuluth on Sudanese swords were inscribed with invocations in such talismanic sense and these were present on known examples of alem in the Mahdist campaigns.


While I had thought of the alem as being a device in the shape of an enlarged spear head on a pole, it was certainly also present in the manner of finial on the shafts carrying battle standards and flags.

The tradition of carrying in procession such Religious pennants attached to Alam goes back as far as can be imagined thus can be seen in artwork back to the time of the founder of Islam seen below advancing on Mecca...accompanied by his entourage and angels. Battle Alam and Islamic pennants attached therefor go back to the beginning of that religion and accompany pilgrims processions and warring groups as Talisman and inspiring soldiers and civilians alike.