It looks like the symbol interpreted by some as a "2" could be a "Z", which would make the inscription be ZANCONA, another city in Tuscana Italy.
Surprizingly (or not) blue lander was aware of the "Z" letter assumption, although he has quoted the seller description in the Ethno forum thread as being ZACONA, whereas this (seller) has described it as ZANCONA.
Things getting a bit mixed up :shrug: .

The seller's description of the blade was "ZACONA TOSCANIA" but I don't see toscania written anywhere on the blade. I don't know where he got that from.

No mistery; he has certainly seen in the web, or already knew it himself, that ZANCONA is in Toscania. Joining both names in the announcement was merely a seller trick, i would say :o .

There is some notion suggested that the Zancona attribution may be an effort in waffle added by the seller... Notwithstanding that~ I see the interesting design decoration to the cuff at the throat which seems to be a snake style decor... The three dots appear to one side of the blade possibly a Talisman or...?? :shrug:

I assume those carvings were added when this was converted to a Takouba, but I suppose there's no proof they weren't original...

It seems to me that this well patinated blade is certainly European and in my view of 18th c. That it is a straight backsword with these numerous fullers suggests to me it is Italian. While cavalry blades of the time were straight backsword type, and often Solingen, these triple fullers were usually on sabre blades at the back of the blade, but not that I recall on British or German.
The schiavona was used as a cavalry sword much more widely than often realized, using back sword blades well into the 19th century.

The letters used in this inscription seem too disassembled to have been an originally applied marking, and the letters 'N' are backwards, in Italy other inscriptions show the 'N' marked correctly. The triple dots are of course a well known component on European swords in groupings such as the well known 'sickle' marks.

The 'snake' with dots is also a known motif on European blades, but usually on the blade only.
This area of the blade to me looks like an 'adabal', a metal plate sandwiched at the ricasso of takoubas in many cases, and the application of these European markings along with the letters etc. seem more convincingly a pastiche by a native artisan.

While the matching of known Italian names of cities etc, is of course tempting to the unusually formed lettering, it is important to note that there was a long standing penchant with some Italian makers in earlier times to use groupings of incongruent letters in marking blades. In these cases, makers such as Caino and Picinino placed these in arranged sequences,
but seemed to make no sense.
While these may have been acrostics, as often done with invocations, some have never been interpreted.

between the regular ricasso and the sandwiched bit, the original ricasso on this blade would have been about 5 inches long!

I doubt the letters are Cyrillic.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Lopoking across the broad variety of alphabets I see that the Majescule A occurs in Coptic. The reverse N in Tuareg and the 3 dots in ...

Lopoking across the broad variety of alphabets I see that the Majescule A occurs in Coptic. The reverse N in Tuareg \tifinaghe and the 3 dots. I seem to get the impression that any sequence of capitals will suffice and letters and numerals from a mixture of countries across the broad sweep of Tuareg domains was possible...

WOW!
Good catch Ibrahiim!!
There is that curious N in Tifinagh, and the others. That would explain these lettering anomalies which are found on numerous 'nimcha' blades as well as others in Saharan context.
The squiggled lines and dots are found on Sudanese blades in various cases as the snake (python) is key in certain symbolisms.

Well done......excellent research, thank you :)

Very interesting angle on the alphabet it might be in.

I cleaned the blade up a bit - it's starting to look like that second character is just an M with a bit of corrosion.

Also, I've uncovered two half circles between the clusters of dots. I think they're eyelashes but I suppose the could be half moons. There isn't much left of them.

I think you are correct ... not Cyrillic probably a Tuareg dialect ... They used the inside out N and the Majiscule A as well as the three dots.

This is excellent news showing Latten style inlaid hogsbacks which would usually be European crafted ? .... I'm not sure about the M as it appears to be the Majescule A. Naturally a sword could arrive with marks already completed and then added to by African smiths... :)
For sure the ADABAL is decorated in snake forms ...commonly seen in these West African decorations...i think in Ashanti design...although it can be imagines that a line up of snakes in front of the crossguard would afford some mystical Talismanic protection to the sword hand...
The three dot accompanied in the eyelash or hogs back also happens to be an Hausa letter k .

In conclusion it appears that some parallel exists between North African design and the influx of European blades and that Tuareg and others seeing the similarity in design have been inspired to copy in their well known counterparts including some of their decorative alphabet capitals... I illustrate the last point with a chart showing a very similar letter to the European Fly mark...Third row second from the end and the cross and orb on line two...

Hmm.. the writing on the blade may be latten inlaid too. From a distance it looks like the letters are just rusty, but under magnification they look more yellow. I'll try to get a non-blurry closeup.

I think these letters may have been latten filled, and it seems a good possibility this is a late 17th century cavalry (probably schiavona) blade .
The fact that the latten filled crescent arcs are there suggests more that this blade was inscribed in Europe.
These letters are too deeply stamped to have been done in the native perameters, and while the apparently poorly struck letters bear some resemblance to native alphabets, I am inclined more to European origin.

Still, this entire assemblage gives us great perspective to the kinds of influences which native armourers experienced, and it is hard sometimes to discern where European style ends and native takes over.
Frankly, this places this blade in 'jackpot' category!!! :)
It has become ever harder to find early blades in these contexts.

Ibrahiim, your notes and observations continue to perfectly illustrate the close parallels between European influence and these native interpretations. The undulating lines which are known in European context as serpents on blades in Italy and I think Spain in degree surely must have been seen by armourers in the Sahara. In their native folk religion it seems I have seen references suggesting the snake and magic of holy men were synonymous.

Blue Lander, again, thank you for sharing this amazing sword here!

I place here the incredible treatise on North African style transition and flow on Jewellery across the entire Ethiopian Tuareg and Hause regions

http://www.academia.edu/7634962/The_...nd_West_Africa...


Hello Jim, This is certainly jackpot country ... Insignias, capitals and marks on blades across North Africa have a huge pedigree and I can only note firstly that the snakes of which there are 5...are absolutely in the Islamic tradition...Fortunately this falls into the style of work both in Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian form since they also drew on Arabic decorations... So the 5 snakes were done in North Africa but what about the rest?

3 dots are straight off the alphabet form ... More difficult to argue since we see 3 dots in blades Latten filled but not on the side of the blade ...Apparently it is the small letter k.

The letter string is hugely difficult but if it does indeed say ZANCONA it may well have been done in Europe...

However, in terms of the North Africa Smiths (and there is vast evidence to support the import of European trade blades through hubs like Kano see reference below ) the Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian artisans were about as close to magicians as possible in peoples eyes as were the folk who wandered the country giving potents for medicinal purposes and magic signs to be placed on jewellery and swords. These weird folk who were apparently Jewish in days of old look the same now as they did then and it is quite startling when you encounter one today ...often in a Moroccan souk...they appear in all their traditional regalia and look 200 years old and instantly ready to whip up a spell !!.....

No doubt the art of the alchemist in Europe also knew these dark symbols ... though because the North African palette was so large hundreds of symbols could be called upon from Roman, Arabic through all the local dialects and mixed and muddled... It is quite interesting that some of the inscriptions had some meaning but often they had none... I think to drive us all mad !!

See the following link for an idea of the blade trade entering North Africa and flushing across the regions and imagine the trading stations they crossed Africa by... Here then is the hand of Trade stepping across Saharan regions as far as the Red Sea and the link in style on blades by local smiths setting down puzzles that in some cases cannot be answered fully.

https://books.google.com.om/books?id...mports&f=false

:confused: ;)

Thanks, wrong thread

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

Yes ... Sir :cool:

Iain, these are superb pictures and the provenance looks sound etc.To my eye the locally done marks appear to be scratched on... whilst European strike marks are deeper indicating "done when hot". Clearly the other parts including the often large wrap or Adabel, African hilt and scabbard are tribally decorated ...with exceptions; where massive, often whole blade European design has been done by the supplier such as on Ethiopian swords commissioned often in Solingen...probably complete with hilts...

There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants...

For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ...

Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded )

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

I think it's an M but the stamp wasn't fully flat. Could be wrong. :)

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

Yes, its a very standard design and one I think of as solidly 19th century to best of what we know.

It's defined by the peaked mid ridge, often the use of a small bronze cap and engraved lateral plate.

A transition from the oldest rounded pommels.

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

The blade could also be from a Dussack Ca 1570/80.

I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.

Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there.

The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/

Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups.
Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes.

I would be pretty confident the second edge was done locally. I've seen this on other backsword blades in takouba mounts.

The style of letters in use in European stamps depends entirely on region, date, etc. There's no standard rule about "tails".

Missed strikes and depth are down to how much care, attention and force is being used. Keep in mind the sort of blade we are looking at here is of a munitions standard, widely produced and exported for a range of types as nicely illustrated by Tordenskiold1721. These were made in bulk in forges using water powered trip hammers, grinding wheels etc. and it was very much an industry turning out a very high volume of product.

While it is my understanding that certain European proof marks were stamped cold, usually blade stamps of the age we are looking at were applied hot.

Personally I think that some stamps were used in an African context due to the appearance of certain marks on blades that are of inferior quality and likely to be locally made. If you want to browse http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php...moon-stamps/24 you'll find plenty of material in terms of comparing many swords with the same motif but some are obviously done in Europe and others in an African context.

I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of the details myself as my interests have generally been on other aspects. But to put it simply, I think some stamps, perhaps even sourced from Europe were around in local blade making centers in Africa like Sokoto, Kano etc. Outside of that engraving is more common and you will see this (again if we use the half moons as an example) quite often being used to imitate actual stamps.

I'm flattered folks, but please keep in my what you find on that link are only one person's opinion. :o

In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade?

The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword.

Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though.

For instance,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...78&postcount=9

There's always a chance of a European blade having been made this way. The one's I've handled typically have the last 1/2 to 1/3 sharpened on the upper side.

True, but your essays happen to be well supported, with observations based on a good amount of actual items, and referencing period sources like Barth. There is so little information out there that I have printed the takouba.org database and together with your articles consider these print outs the best "book" on the subject of Sahel weapons thus far.

Thank you,
Teodor

Thanks Teodor,

There are times I struggle to write due to a lack of inspiration and ideas. This thread is a bright spot in what is often a figurative desert with most extant examples being modern. It's really due to members like blue lander being willing to share their examples that I've written anything at all. For me the heart of weapons study will always be seeing as many examples as possible. Very little attention was devoted by previous researchers to the overall story of the takouba and its form, with more concern being paid to the European blade aspect or more ethnographic interests in leather work, current usage etc. All very valid and helpful areas of study but my passion has always been and still is the early moments of the takouba, where it came from, what the relation to other sword forms is, how it came to be an isolated and relatively preserved over time. Without folks like yourself to encourage me, I'd be tempted at times to give up and figure there's not much left to uncover. Thankfully this forum is a major aid in stimulating discussion and driving my passion forward. I'm truly grateful my attempts to shine a light on this obscure topic have been helpful.

Merging threads is an easy thing when both were started in the same forum; not so linear when each one is located in different forum sections, as one will vanish to the eyes of members who posted there. As eventually the item in discussion has both Ethno and European roots, there is the option to chose in which forum merged threads will be placed.
Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ?

... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly :cool:

Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense