Let me enter in the "dance", I vote for Alex! But I would like to add something:
Saif is the Arabic word for sword, no more. It can be - and not should be - apply to Arabic swords.
Another point a kilij has not necessary a yelman. It's a sword in Turkish, point.
I have a kilij with no yelman.
I never saw a tulwar with an Ottoman hilt. But I'm sure that's exist somewhere, true or fake... I have seen a lot of strange combinations since the lats years...
And again the origin of the blade doesn't define a sword.
An Arabian sword with a Persian blade is an Arabian sword, called sometimes saif sometimes Arabian shamshir by collectors...
Kubur

Every sword can be called a saif if you are using Arabic. Just like how every sword can be called sword if you are using English.

The swords you have posted are all Arabic, so naturally an Arab who probably used that sword would still call it 'saif'

As for saifs being straight or straight-ish there are elements of truth in it but I do not know any reference that mentions Arabs using only straight or straight-ish examples. All was used, but mildly curved swords were favoured.

Here are Artzi's words, sounds to me like you are saying he is wrong if you insist that saif are usually straight, and while you are complaining about me "misrepresenting" your words maybe you can stop misrepresenting mine. I always love it when someone says that they can not provide any references to back up what they are saying but you just have to believe that they are right and you are wrong...humm.

While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.

Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif'

Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic.

Btw Eric,

Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means.

Estcrh, it is meaningless to play the game of words and discuss nuances of "usually" and "straight-ish", while failing to see the big picture - the differences between Arabian and Indian swords! I am out of this "discussion".

going back to original topic, anyone can translate this:

Since no one here can seem to find any references to back up what they are saying I will provide a few more.

I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is.

The Army of the Indian Moghuls: Its Organization and Administration, William Irvine, 1903.

Do I need to reference using my own language? Saif is a word much older than the 18th, 19th and 20th century and Elgood here is referring to saifs with Persian blades. And saifs could have curved, straight, shallow curved blades from Europe to India, it will still be called a saif.

Also, he mentioned the term 'sabre' which is the key term here, rather than curved which can be confusing. The arab swords with a shallow curve are still considered sabres.

As for the word 'Tegh' being Arabic, I believe thats completely wrong. Its a Persian word.

It has nothing to do with a hilt type, I am afraid. It has to do with the object as a whole.

Yes, the tulwar hilted sword will be called a saif, by an Arab using the Arabic language. So is the many other types of swords.

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

Hey Kubur, Eric, and everyone else,

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment?

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

I agree completely, this is what I have been saying in my posts. I personally am not making anything up, I am just showing references that may have influenced past uses of the word, whether they are accurate or not. Local armor and weapons terms and use have always been subject to the whims of visitors, not just in Arab countries.

I don't agree with you about the term "to learn"... these are your words from previous post, Kubur :) But seriously, the problem here is that people arguing about terminology and picking minor differences in descriptions and words based on what they saw or read somewhere. It is meaningless to argue what sword to call a sword, and to not know the difference between them:) I think you know the difference, but getting drugged into semantic.

Thanks for your answer Miguel. Your photos are good, I just used an editor to crop them and to make a panoramic image which makes it easer to see all of the photos at one time.

Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views?

By references, do you mean:

- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales?

- or scientific references like Elgood?

Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries".

;)

Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times

From Wikipedia.

Any written/printed reference (right or wrong) that helps explain why somone may have certain views on the topic of saif.

Since you have Elgoods book can you verify the quote I posted, does he have anything else to say on the subject ?

Yep, but the key point is that Usamah ibn almunkidh is an Arab from the Banu Munkidh tribe.

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.

Ralass Ustaz, the case is closed!
:D

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

I am told that particular quote on the saif may be around page 10.

WOW, When I posted this thread I never dreamed it would develop as it has. I am only a simple collector who wished confirmation of the sword which was answered in the first couple of replies, amazing how the subject changes but very interesting if not somewhat confusing for someone with only a little knowledge like me. This is what I like about this forum I learn something every time I log on.
I googled all the sword type names i.e. Kilij, Saif and Shamshir etc. to seek clarification but I can tell you that every thing contained in the thread could be found. I think that. for myself, I am better sticking to the name the sword conjures up in my mind otherwise it becomes to confusing.
Thank you everyone for your comments and time.
Regards
Miguel
ps Can anyone translate the blade stamp.

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

Hi Kubur, Thanks for sharing this sword it is a beauty. I always have a problem with the patterns different techniques produce on the blade surface, impaired vision problems, and would be grateful if you would tell me if the pattern on your blade is Damascus or Wootz or other.
Best regards
Miguel

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

I was thinking of the same sword, here are a couple different images that may show the damascus blade a little better.

Hello Mr Baskurt, Thank you very much for your reply. The information you have provided has been most informative, all I need now to put "the icing on the cake" is a translation of the stamp. Thank you once again.
Best regards
Miguel

Absolutely Wonderful sword, what a beautiful blade.
Regards
Miguel

about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

Kuber, any luck finding that quote in Elgoods book? It should be on or near page 10 from what I was told.

Hi,
yes the chapter on the swords starts page 10.
But there are a lot of things. What are you looking for exactly??
Best,

Can you verify if this quote was correctly copied and are there any other brief mentions of saif? Thanks!

Hi,
Sorry for the dealy that's correct and its page 10.
Then he talks about the nimcha. But this story of saif and shamshir is much more complicated. For me the sabre is something from the East, coming to Middle East with the Moghols at the end of the 13th c.
best,
Kubur

Hi Miguel,
Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c.
Best Kubur

Thanks Kuber, there is a lot of conflicting references on saif, hard to tell which is correct. As for the introduction of curved swords here is a reference.

Mamluk Costume: A Survey, Leo Ary Mayer, 1952.

Kuber, a nice and rare example, the end of an era, yours must be close to the time period of the transition to a more European military sword.

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel nope don't worry at all that i didn't offend :)
by the way i am waiting for a clearer photo to see i will check the forum time by time
with my respects
O. Baskurt