Ethnographic Arms & Armour
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Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
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-   -   Ivory Silver Swassa Barong (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11412)

Dimasalang 25th February 2010 06:26 AM
A lot of great points in this thread!

I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford. :D

I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

mross 25th February 2010 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .
Clean up yes, but there is a HUGE difference in stock removal to shape and forge to shape and clean up. By the way files are more of a modern tool, in the old days they used a draw knife.

hideyoshi 25th February 2010 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. :cool: . If it sported a non-laminated blade.... :eek:
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

I am with you Kino. A lot of this Moro aristocrats like to show off their status on expensively ornamented swords that's including the blade. My thought when I fist saw it at the seller's web site that the blade might be a later replacement. Not that somethings wrong with it. Only my tought.

hideyoshi 25th February 2010 05:27 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

VANDOO 25th February 2010 05:31 PM
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STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL :D
LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800.
TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY.

Battara 25th February 2010 11:23 PM
3 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hideyoshi
Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.
HI Hideyoshi. I believe that the example is etched due to the darkness of the steel. But that is another issue.

You have some really nice barong blades there with nice lamination (would love to see the whole barongs if you don't mind posting them).

Here is a barong that I made the pommel and replaced 75% of the missing brass inlay. Very similar to yours, except after I polished and re-etched the blade, there were no laminations in the blade (the piece belonged to a former member here Ian). Below are the pictures. (I also made the scabbard):

hideyoshi 26th February 2010 04:50 AM
3 Attachment(s)
Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back.

kino 26th February 2010 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.
I think this blade has its pattern hidden. Even if GC Stone etched this blade before he gave it away , the lamination lines would be obscured by over 70 yrs of storage, and I highly doubt that the museum would etch it.

Battara 27th February 2010 03:19 AM
Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't.

As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades.

The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.

Battara 16th March 2011 11:14 PM
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Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures.

Enjoy! :D

BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see.


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