here's some

is the motif near the base (where I think the ankles are) the anklets? it's just a simple horizontal line on the Big Minang? "jawa Demam.

more

more for comparison

another simple brass form (the ring is not right...but i like it)

I see your points Alan and of course i agree that there are more than 2 sources for hilt origins. I was merely pointing out that it seems to me that in this discussionnwe are trying to find a single origin for at least 2 (probably more) distinctly different forms. In other words, i am not convinced that the hilt form that we have come to know as "Jawa Demam" is an abstracted evolution of the hilt form that we have come to recognize as "raksasa".
And Jonathan, i am not sure you understood me fully. Whether the arm is intended to cross the stomach or the chest was not meant to be an arguing point. You questioned why this hilt was called the Feverish Javanese, calling it a derogatory term. I was merely relaying one explanation for that, that perhaps the posture was misinterpreted at some point and the story spread. I am not convinced that the original intent of the form was to portray a sick person, but this is the name in common usage. However, i am not really hopeful that we will ever be able to uncover the original intent or name if there is one. The questions are good but the answers are impossibly elusive and unfortunately much has been lost to time. :shrug:
So can anyone accurately determine when the Jawa Demam hilt first appeared? Are there any hilts with established provenance? Does the name Java Demam appear in any documentation before Gardner? Was Gardner mislead or perhaps just confused?

Dave's example is probably even older. It even has a facial features on the face, and it does not look like a rashaksa; more like a old man. Maybe I'll try to ask him to post a pic. But even then, it probably won't help much with the discussion on origins. :D

Interesting topic. Would this qualify as one?

Here's another vote for Cirebon being the origin of this figure.

Jawa Demam
 

Here is another.
Does this qualify as Jawa Demam or maybe a Raksasa (see the Raksasa/Figur al discussion).

It is much less stylized than the other Jawa Demam's I have.
Much more figural and less "bird" like so to say.
I think it also has the fangs that would make it a raksassa type of hilt.
On the other hand the crossed arm is quite typical I think or not?

Would like to hear your opinions.

Regards, Erik

Dear Eric,

The hilt you just posted look like a newly carved one. Is it new?

B/rgds,
jonathan

As far as I know it is from the 1950s and brought from Sumatra to the Netherlands in that period.

So not new but quite recent.

It is very well carved (in horn) that is why I kept it despite the relative young age it has. It is th eodd one out in my collection but i like it nevertheless

Regards, Erik

Another cross over?
 

Here another example of a cross over.
A figural hilt with crossed arms like the the Jawa Demam but also with Fanks like an ogre/demon.

Would this qualify as a Jawa Demam?

It is a nice old ivory example.

Regards, Erik

Erik, i can't answer you question, but i did want to say that you seem to have a wonderful collection of figural hilts. :)
A old hilt like this, with the ogre-like qualities such as fangs and the crossed over arm posture of the Jawa Demam is indeed very interesting. What i am most curious about is if there is a specific meaning to this crossed over arm posture. Does it have a specific cultural significance? Likewise does the hands on knees posture also have cultural significance? Are the meanings here different or doesn't it matter? :shrug: :)

Thanks, in fact the collection is quite small but I do try to improve the quality of the collection continuously and I try to learn from the items I have as much as I can.

I am interested in the same question as you are.
In fact I have four hilts that are almost the same and have lot of characteristics that they all have. This must be the same character (the one I used to call Raksasa in being the flesh eating demon).
It has the hand position you mention.

I will try to make an overview of the characteristics.
If anaybody can positively identify this character that would be very nice!

I'll post it as a seperate thread.

Regards, Erik

Jenssen Krisdisk
 

Hi David,

I just did what I should have done immediately.
I reread the krisdisk and it has a lot of the answers.
Regarding my earlier question regarding the cross over type:
if you have the disk chapter 4 on Cirebon read page 10.

Regards, Erik

Just to share, Adni has 3 hilts in his inventory, which came in at different times, of the same rashaksa form with arms crossed-over like the jawa demam. The hilts were probably made in the earlier part of the 20th century as well. The keris hilts are probably still evolving as we speak.

If I might refer back to something you mentioned Alan

What do you mean by the naturally occurring hilt forms that are adapted for use as a keris hilt? Do you have any examples that you could show?

If the moderators feel it would be better that this be a separate question please split this topic off

drdavid

Probably the most rare and most prized of all keris hilts is the hilt that is a natural object, say a piece of root-wood, that has a form making it suitable for immediate use as a hilt, and with only the finishing to be carried out.

I have only ever seen two hilts of this type, and I own only one.

I will put up a photo tomorrow if I have the light.

Interesting, look forward to this. To whom would this type have been valuable? People with money, nobility or religious people?

Erik

The people to whom this type of hilt was and is most attractive are those with a strong belief in the esoteric.

Thanks Alan for posting this most interesting piece. How much do you think it has been 'altered' from its native state? (By altered I mean carved). This piece is much more sophisticated than your average bit of tree branch, it looks like roots or vines were wrapped around it as it grew and it has that sense of a respectful bow about it.

It raises a question for me. Is it possible that the most primitive of keris hilts were all just a bent piece of tree root or similar? Given what is known about the first appearance of the keris compared to the development of the plastic arts at the same time this seems unlikely, but I would appreciate others opinions?

drdavid

We get interesting root forms from under the sand roads here on Cape Cod . :)
Here's one I altered a bit, (3 faces, cloven hoof) that I found in the woods on an old cart path in Wellfleet 30 years ago . :D

David, as far as I can see there has been virtually no real carving of this hilt, but there has been cleaning up and finishing, of course the ferrule area has been regularised to allow fitting.

The modern keris developed from a fairly refined dagger used in an overhand action. I am certain that the original hilts used for the early versions of the modern keris would have been at least as refined as their predecessors. This is borne out by the comments in the Ying-yai Sheng-lan, which dates from about 1416.

This type of natural hilt is not indicative of a line of development, but rather of the esoteric beliefs of humanity.

Up!

Is this thread not a candidate for becoming a "classic"?

:)

Thanks,

J.

Done, and thanks ! :)

Palembang Pagaralam
 

Another example, almost similar -- but of course not the same -- as Alan's. A friend of mine, a Palembang origin gentleman, called this style of hilt as "Palembang Pagaralam" hilt. Simple form, almost like "natural" bending wood... According to this Palembang gentleman, Pagaralam style geographically from between Palembang (South Sumatra) and Padang (West Sumatra)...

Another thread, related to Jawa Demam discussion:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=jawa+demam

GANJAWULUNG

Natural
 

And i guess here's the link to the natural ones.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11822

@Aji, Thanks for reminding me on the name of this hilt,

I am still tracing the original name of this kind of hilt, that you mentioned in another thread as "gana hilt". It could be possible that your information is correct, if we consider that the literaly meaning of "gana" is more or less, "a flock of lower grade of gods, or demigods which once believed to be Shiwa's follower, headed by ganesha..." according to PJ Zoetmulder & SO Robson...

As I mentioned another name, "pagaralam hilt" of course, if we consider the locality. It is more "geographical name", as my Sumatran friend called this type of hilt.

Pagaralam itself, is a semi-autonomous region in South Sumatra -- Between Palembang (South Sumatra) and Padang (West Sumatra). More precisely, Pagaralam is an 636.000 square meter autonomous region of Lahat, with a population of about 119.000 people. It consists of five districts: Dempo Selatan (or South Dempo), Dempo Tengah (Central Dempo), Dempo Utara (North Dempo), Pagaralam Selatan (South Pagaralam) and Pagaralam Utara (North Pagaralam).

This special South Sumatran region at the foot of Mt Dempo has a couple of archaeological sites, with more than 26 menhir sites (megalithicum sites), some sites of palaeolithical statues and at least 33 natural water falls... (according to a certain source).

Anyway, thanks a lot Aji, for your very useful info...

GANJAWULUNG