Probably, I incomprehensibly explained :) It was necessary to put the link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANCIEN-COUT...wAAOSwx0FdZCQw

This choora dagger, judging by the description, is declared as ancient. Beautiful floral carving on a blade is a modern work. I will explain again what I wrote a little earlier. If the old master made this carving, he would decorate the T-shaped spine this choora dagger in the same style. The photo shows that the T-shaped spine this choora dagger is decorated very roughly. Old masters did not allow such stylistic differences.
So we are dealing with a fake ... As I said before, there are fakes of a very good standard :)
I didn’t say anything about the hilt :) Perhaps my bad English is to blame. Sorry for not being able to explain right away...

For me personally, modern work (in my understanding "modern work" for an object that is 100 years old is 10-30-50 years old) on an old blade (even if it will be very good) - reduces the value of the item ... For me, such an object will be fake.

Marius, I agree with you that Japanese swords are usually made by a master swordsmith and occasionaly decorated/engraved (horimono), sometimes at a much later date by another master. That doesn't make them fakes, nor does it decrease their value.
But if I make an engraving on an old Japanese blade - what do you say about this?)) Will it be a fake? ;)

Mahratt:

You raise some excellent points. I think it comes down to how people present the item. Your choora example is a good one. Here the engraved floral work was clearly done recently (compared with other engravings on the blade and hilt). The item is presented as very old (ancienne) without any qualification that the engraving may be recent. This is a flawed characterization of the item. One cannot say for sure whether the misrepresentation is deliberate or not, but the item is not as old as the description suggests and it has been altered.

This example goes beyond the frequent exaggeration of age that many descriptions convey, in that the item has been altered. Was there intent to deceive? That's a matter of individual judgement IMHO. Caveat emptor!

Ian

Ian,
Thanks for understanding.

Ian,


One needs to be careful with those Frenchies:-)

There is a subtle difference between ancien (seller’s description) and ancient.
“Ancien” is translated first and foremost as old or past, previous, former.
”Ancien regime”= old rule. That’s how French called their monarchy before the 1789 Revolution.
But “ancient” is ancient or antique.
Sometimes, foreign languages are useful. N’est-ce pas?

The poor schnook never presented his choora as “antique”, just as “old”, which is true. Does not qualify for a “fake”.

Good point Ariel. Merci beaucoup! :)

De rien:-)

Bravo, Ariel.

As always, you masterfully "play with words"))))

Your linguistic knowledge is fascinating, but it is not relevant. Since it is clear that the seller does not say that he is selling a modern item.

if I'm not mistaken "ANCIEN COUTEAU ETHNIQUE" - translates as "OLD ETHNIC KNIFE"
Unfortunately, the seller does not write in the description that the decoration of the blade is recent.

It always makes sense to read the entire description, and not shine with "linguistic knowledge"...

I’m sure Ariel is not trying to be apologetic concerning this seller.

We all need to keep in mind that most salesmen will try to phrase any description in a way that entices possible buyers in reading more into it than what will be considered as legally binding - caveat emptor.

It helps to really think about what is NOT being said in sales lore...

Regards,
Kai

It is an interesting and contentious debate as often develops here, leaving behind the plausible explanations pertaining to the circumstances of an example set here for examination.

Momentarily returning to the example originally posted here, a Khyber knife typical of mid to latter 19th century, which has clearly undergone a dramatic acid etching of its blade, profoundly atypical for these swords.....especially in the Khyber regions where they were commonly used.

Obviously this sword has at some point left its original environs and entered a new context where the styling of the motif applied characterizes the culture and tradition of those who most likely applied it.

This does not render the sword a fake, as it clearly is not, nor does it need to suggest that the decoration was spuriously applied to garner monetary value. Such 'creations' do not need such elaborate yet crudely applied application which is far too consuming for the average innovation of souk peddlers.

The nearly unbelievable price asked in the hawking of this piece only illustrates the audacity of sellers who prey on poorly informed buyers who desperately hope to find great value in exotic and unusual items.
There is an incredible gullibility out there in the vastly expanding sales venues patrons, and sadly some are sometimes well hoodwinked.

My estimation suggesting the possibility of this item having some authenticity in its current appearance as an item perhaps ending up in the hands of the Kalash people as mentioned can only remain speculative.

The rest of the debate here becomes almost philosophical, toward what determines whether a weapon is, or has become 'fake', a term extremely relative in these matters.

The elements of arms decoration as pertains to religious doctrine or rules are typically vaguely defined or understood and it is hard to strictly define decoration in such character. Often there are nominal presences of religions in syncretic circumstances with others, so variation might move in different directions.

Similarly, there are hybridized and amalgamated weapons which result from cases of either trophy items, traditional or heirloom ones, which have incongruous components used as usually ceremonial weapons. Reciting the many examples of this here would simply belabor the discussion further.

In a note regarding the so called 'Berber sabres', these were 'presumed' to be Moroccan due to numbers of them found in Morocco. As it turned out, these were taken there by conscripted forces from Spanish colonial regions in Caribbean and Central American regions during uprisings in 1920s against Spanish rule in Moroccan regions. These were found to have indigenous proclivity in the Cuban, Mexican and Central American regions and even extended to Dominican Republic. I recall the research on these begun in the late 1990s and discussions here sharing information and evidence revealing the ultimate consensus, which became generally held rather than decided.

Hello Mahratt,
While I may be suffering from post-modernism (I guess that is what you mean), others here suffer from dogmatism and rigidity of thought. I really don't know much about Kaffirs and their culture and I am not the best judge of this specific knife. However, the Kalash do not live in Papua or on the moon and trade contacts always existed. Fringes produce fringe pieces and I totally reject the view that weapons that do not conform with known and recognized types are necessarily "fake" in any way. That is all.
The last 2 pieces I have shown on the forum are almost certainly 19th c, genuine, but do not belong to any known type (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25170 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24995).
I understand why collectors dislike these odd pieces. They blur a picture that is too complex as it is. But ignoring these would be treating our hobby as any another fancy (pedigree dogs for example), where 19th c "scientific" views still prevail, meaning that opinions and reasoning are preferred above facts.
Ariel has been provocative, as usual, in order to develop discussion. Whatever this knife is, it is clearly not worth the asking price by a long shot.

Well, if you make an engraving on a Japanese blade, it will certainly be a disaster... for the blade of course (not that I am doubting your engraving skills). ;)

However, if say you have a blade from 1700 and around 1900 the owner has it decorated with horimono by a master engraver, that would not decrease the value of the sword... but with some observations: the horimono should be TRADITIONALLY made = chiseled by hand, and with a traditional theme (hi, kanji symbols, kurikara, etc.)

So if the horimono would be made using any other method than chiseling by hand (using power tools, by etching, by punching, etc.), or if the horimono is not of traditional motifs (say you engrave your name) then it would be mutilating the blade and turning it into a fake (a contraption that is not what it is supposed to be).

In my oppinion this is precisely the case of the khyber sword in the original posting. A genuine typical Afghan khyber sword, with some decoration added on the blade at a later date, but the decoration is made by a method that is definitely NOT traditional for the Afghan khyber swords, and also has a theme that does not appear traditional as well (at least not to my eyes).

But I am not so sure about the choora in your example. The argument that a genuine Afghan engraver would have also engraved the spine in the same style is a pure speculation. Maybe the owner didn't have enough money to pay for a full engraving... :shrug:
Anyhow, at least to my eyes and just judging from the photos, the engraving on the choora appears traditionally made and with Afghan style motifs. So to me, the choora may be very genuine and original.

Of course, the authenticity of the Khyber knife, which served as the basis for later decoration, is beyond doubt

Marius, was there no money for a small decoration on the dagger’s spine? :) Despite the fact that on both sides the blade is richly decorated with deep carving? ;) I'm afraid it is this - pure speculation)))
Moreover, it is known that if a traditional blade was used on chur (as in the case of my example), then it is always decorated very roughly. And the appearance of such a beautiful, deep and graceful carving, but only on the sides of the blade is completely unconventional. Rather, I believe that someone ordered such a carving in the 1970s and 1980s, while not understanding how it should be in tradition. Moreover, this floral ornament is not very typical for Afghanistan. Although the master tried hard)))

Absolutely correct, this is speculation, just look at the yataghans for example.
To me too this choora looks right.
Guys you have to stop to think that decorations are suspicious. And yes these decorations were done after the blade was forged... It is also speculation to think that it was in a later date, it could have been two days after the forge, two weeks, two months...Patina is important.

Hi Rick,
No problem with the Spanish origins, and later Cuban, Mexican and Dominican... Of Course.
But I strongly disagree that all the forum members agreed with your conclusions (at least Ariel and I we didn't), you have also Berber swords from South Morocco that I know very well. Local and tribal variations of the Spanish colonial machettes... Even these swords might have been first in Morocco and then later to the Caribbeans.
Why? Simply the Triangular trade... Think about it... I know that you like trade stories... I will post another funny example later...

Well, if for someone this is not important, then let it be in 2 years, in 20 years, in 200 years))))
Seriously, it seems to me that it makes sense to look at analogies. And if there are no analogies, then it is necessary to question such "decorations" of blades. Especially if the "decoration" is made in the technique. which is a-typical for an item from a specific region.
But! This is a personal matter for everyone.

Hello motan,
In recent months, I read a lot about Kalash and other kafirs of Nuristan (Kafiristan), talk with Kalash, who has a museum in Kabul dedicated to the culture of Kafiristan, look at museum collections and study archival photos from Kafiristan;) Therefore, I would not draw such hasty conclusions about the existence of "trade contacts" with Persia there. Until the end of the 19th century, these were very archaic and isolated societies.

I don’t know anything about Shibriyas, so I can’t say anything about the daggers that you mentioned. But I am a little versed in the weapons of Afghanistan :)

Thank you Kubur!
This is a very interesting geographical story :) A real journey.
But maybe we will return to Afghanistan? ;)

Guys,
I am not being provocative. On the contrary, I am saying that in the absence of hard facts ( aluminum on a presumably 17 century sword, plastic handle, engraving with contemporary motives etc) unusual swords and daggers should not be officially labeled as “fake”. There is such thing as presumption of innocence:-)

Unusual things challenge our current knowledge: have we missed something? We may thus engage in a search for potential gaps in our knowledge. But on top of it, swords mutated, better communications introduced exchange of forms, techniques and decorations. Trade blades were ubiquitous: European blades were sold to Sudan, Arabia and North Africa, Daghestanis sold their blades to Arabia, Indian and Persian blades were dime a dozen in Afghanistan, Oriental blades were sold in Europe. We see Philippine Barongs with Chinese hieroglyphic marks: Chinese exported them there in quantities. Trophies made “chimeric” weapons: British blade with Indian handle, Indian blade with British handle, Khanda blade with Georgian handle.

Could this Khyber blade with the etching been made in Persia in the middle of 19 century and sold in Afghanistan where a local handle was attached to it? It is a distinct possibility: why wouldn’t Persian smiths cease an opportunity to make a buck? After all, they sold quantities of sophisticated wootz Shamshir blades with engraved, chiseled and koftgari Persian inscriptions there anyway, why not make a simple Khyber blade and add a cheap etching to it?

My point is, we cannot automatically assume that strange is fake. We may not like what we see and not buy it, but in the absence of hard evidence ( Marius’ example of horimono) we may want to suspend our negative judgement.

Kubur,
Re. “Berber or Spanish colonial” swords I have no dog in this fight.
My only point was that there is a big old oil in Versailles showing a battle of French with Berbers. One Berber holds an identical sword. Regretfully ( stupidly, in fact) I did not photograph it or info about the artist and the date.

Unfortunately, these words are just “flight of fancy”. Shamshir is a typically Persian weapon. And their blades were highly valued and exported to other countries. There is a lot of evidence for this. The Khyber knife is the weapon of the inhabitants of Afghanistan and, to some extent, Northern India (but there the Khyber knives have their own recognizable style). I have no doubt that the Persian master could make a Khyber knife. Moreover, I know such examples. But then the Khyber knife made by the Persian master will look different than the one we are discussing. This is due to cultural traditions. There will be a different shape of the blade, another shape of the handle, another technique for decorating the blade.
By the way, for some reason everyone forgot what Marius wrote at the very beginning:

I will add that such a rough Acid etching is usually found on Persian objects of the late 19th century.

[QUOTE=mahratt]
Marius, was there no money for a small decoration on the dagger’s spine? :) Despite the fact that on both sides the blade is richly decorated with deep carving? ;) I'm afraid it is this - pure speculation)))
Moreover, it is known that if a traditional blade was used on chur (as in the case of my example), then it is always decorated very roughly. And the appearance of such a beautiful, deep and graceful carving, but only on the sides of the blade is completely unconventional. Rather, I believe that someone ordered such a carving in the 1970s and 1980s, while not understanding how it should be in tradition. Moreover, this floral ornament is not very typical for Afghanistan. Although the master tried hard)))[/QUOTE:]

I believe I see your point!

So, if I would see a Japanese katana with a beautiful horimono with Yin and Yang or some Farsi script, I would definitely consider it a fake/contraption, and by no means a genuine ethnographic weapon characteristic for Japan.

The same will definitely be the case for the Khyber sword in the original posting. At least in my opinion.

And considering that deep engraving is NOT a technique traditionally used by Afghans, it becomes apparent that the choora in question is NOT a genuine ethnographic knife characteristic for its geographic region. It would be like a katana with horimono done by punching.
:shrug:

This is amazing, always learning here!! I had no idea Persians did not use acid etching before 19th century, and thought that Qajar items of the 'revival' type included the earlier Qajar period as well (from 1789).
The Mamluks of course used the process from centuries earlier in their metalwork, and the technique became well known in the Sudan by the 19th c.

It is odd that this Khyber has this type etching, which was not something used in these or most Afghan regions as far as I have known. However, it was not used on Kalash (Kafir) weapons either (again as far as I have found).
The Kalash used these type figures and styling on material culture and even on their homes in external decoration.

Double

In fact, Persians etched their blades for centuries: that was how they revealed wootz. They did not use deep etching, like on the Khyber in question, till they started producing “ revival” swords. Deep etching was a quick, cheap and dirty way to produce images and inscriptions, suitable for souvenir market, regulation sabers and trade with “penniless savages” like Afghanis:-) The quality of images varied widely, from acceptable to atrocious. In my guess, this Khyber’s imagery belongs to the low end of the Persian spectrum:-)

Re: post # 60

Folks, I am lost.....
Need your help to understand the logic:
Read the first sentence of my quotation, first sentence of the response and then last sentence of the response: in that order.

Am I totally confused or is it an example of a “split mind” thinking?

Ariel, what exactly are you not clear about? I will try to explain in more understandable words, if something seemed to you not logical. It will be more correct than if the other folks try to explain my logic to you :)

I apologize for my poor English.

I will try to explain to you now. But if something is not clear, please ask. Do not be shy.

1) Persia is known for exporting large quantities of shamshir blades (wootz blades and simple blades) to neighboring countries. This fact is confirmed by historical documents and a large number of undoubtedly Persian blades in India, Arabia and Central Asia.
2) Nothing is known about the fact that Persia would manufacture for export weapons not typical of Persia, but typical of another country. (if there is documentary evidence that proves that I am wrong, I will be very glad to get acquainted with them)
3) In Persia (or Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan), in exceptional cases, they made Khyber knives. These khyber knives are very elegant in the shape of a blade, have a handle that differs from the rough handles of Afghan highbers, their blades are decorated in a completely different technique.
4) The Khyber knife discussed in the subject, by all its external signs, is Afghan. There are no features in it that may indicate that it is made in Persia. In addition to "acid etching."
5) Indeed, in Persia in the 19th century actively used “acid etching” to decorate arms and armor, covering their surface with images and calligraphy. But! As Marius already wrote, the Persians began to do this in the 19th century.
6) The quality of "acid etching" in the early 19th century and at the end of the 19th century is very different. In the early 19th century - with "acid etching" you get deep and clear images. At the end of the 19th century - low-quality images (similar to images on the haber from this topic).
7) In Afghanistan, “acid etching” was not used to decorate blades.
8) How realistic is the historical combination of a typical Afghan Khyber knife and a typical Persian "acid etching"? My personal opinion is that such a combination could not exist in the 19th century. But! Even if you start to fantasize and decide that some Afghan traveled to Persia and for some reason ordered a completely non-standard jewelry on his Khyber knife, then judging by the crude "acid etching", this was done at the very end of the 19th century. That is, to call such a Khyber knife - "old khyber" or, especially, "The oldest dated Khyber I can recall" - is completely wrong.

I hope now I was able to explain what you did not understand

Precisely!
:cool:

PS: But reading through this whole thread, it appears that the majority of people also lean towards this oppinion.
Anyhow, I loved the debate! :)

Thank you very much!
I already began to worry that my poor knowledge of English prevented me from expressing my thoughts logically ;)

The Khyber blade is unique, and while Persia may have begun exporting trade blades at some point about early to mid 19th c. (see the excellent article "On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" Oliver Pinchot, 'Arms Collecting' Vol. 40, #1, Feb. 2002) .......they made typical sabre type blades used often on local hilts.
They were not set on producing made to order blades or weapons for trade or as far as I am aware, commissioned or custom made weapons were not a well known Persian activity. Obviously their blades and arms were highly in demand on their own..........but never heard of a Khyber blade in Persia or from Persia.

This etching is crudely done, and far from Persian quality, and the very idea of an Afghan tribesman sending a blade or weapon to Persia for etching is on the face of it, patently not likely.

The 'date' in the motif here is certainly commemorative or with some other connection, if it is indeed a date. Therefore to presume this is a date establishing a terminus post quem for the 'Khyber knife' form is insufficient.

Still this is an intriguing example of a Khyber of the 19th c. which has found its way into an unusual context, reflected by the decorative motif which has been applied to it for whatever reason. Fascinating discussion.

Jim,
We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it.



Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration.

We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan.

I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read.
Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

It is so true that while we know the typical nature of weapons and their decoration etc. in given regions, there will always be anomalies. But that is the fascination and excitement of arms history and investigation.
It is not only conceivable but likely that Persian artisans would enter Afghan regions just as they did in many others. Their style and skills then of course would diffuse accordingly.

Of course we may never know with certainty on this intriguing Khyber, why it in such an atypical state, but honestly this discussion has been fascinating and I very much enjoy the perspective, ideas and knowledge shared here.
I hope to never stop learning, and postings like this interesting Khyber are the perfect fuel!! Thank you for so thoughtfully posting this.

Great discussion. Perhaps it is time to take a break, but apparently no one has considered the extensive text also etched on the blade. I suspect that there is a revealing story contained therein.

Regards,
Ed

That would be great if the text could be translated But unfortunately, these late "acid etchings" are usually meaningless. Of course, we say: "Probably the surahs of the Koran are written there". But usually on Persian items of the late 19th century and Sudanese items - "inscriptions" are not readable...

Ed,

Many pics are with my Persian colleagues for at least partial translation. Hopefully something meaningful will come out of it. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed.

I look forward to hearing more from Persian speakers on possibility of actual words or perhaps phrases in this acid etched motif. While as I have stated my sense is that this is a genuine tribal Khyber which has perhaps entered the Kalash (Kafir) realm, possibly a trophy.

Since like much of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (Bukhara) Sind and Baluchistan, who all had profound Persian influences present....this was probably quite so in the Nuristan regions. However, it should be noted that the Kalash have tried to maintain their animist religious tradition and beliefs in autonomy in the areas of Chitral where they relocated after Rahman Khans incursion in 1890s.

It is curious to see such motif and affectation applied in what appears to be regarded as in Persian style but with Kalash images coupled with supposed Persian script and dating.
Could this be some sort of syncretic anomaly?

Here I would note that with decorative calligraphy, it has often been presumed that in many cases it is in effect 'jibberish' or simply approximated lettering to achieve a provocative result in imbuement of a blade.
This was the case with the heavy lettering used on Sudanese blades in the late 19th c. known as 'thuluth'. It has been discovered however, that much of this decorative calligraphy is typically in reality select phrases or wording from Koranic Surahs in numbers of examples. This however is used in repetition and sometimes with added contemporary invocations related to the Mahdi.

In the case of Persian decoration, the well known blades of the Persian trade blades of the early 19th c. (well described in Oliver Pinchot's " On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Arms Collecting, Vol. 40, #1. Feb.2002) he details the fact that these blades were decorated with a cartouche holding the Persian lion image to represent the famed makers name. While with scripted cartouche as well, this pictogram served as recognition visually for less than literate clientele. These were the kinds of considerations often used in decoration of these blades in these times of far broader availability of weapons.

Perhaps this 'decoration' is also in such manner, and Ed's suggestion is of course well placed. Hopefully Ariels resources will find for or against the matter.
Fingers crossed!! :)

Guys

Just google Pamir petroglyphs or rock art, or just download the article below...
Is it possible that this sword is not from Afghanistan but from Pamir in Tadjikistan?
Or an Afghan sword decorated in Tadjikistan in the Wakhan Corridor??
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...khan-corridor/

Kubur

Thanks Kubur!

Great version! But ... Maybe someone will show items from Tajikistan with such "acid etching" on the blade? I have not seen ... And I can’t remember that in Tajikistan or in Bukhara, "acid etching" was done on the blades. But it will be very interesting for me to see such items.

I agree with Kubar that the image is in a pictograph-style and Jim"s suggestion that the pictogram has a representable meaning.

How's this for an interesting if fanciful tale? Suppose a traveler during the Great Game era came across a pictogram of an ancient battle (note the curved bladed sword and rounded figures with holes in them, dead people?). Say the pictogram continued to have relevance to the locals. The traveler copied the image and had it etched into the knife along with a commemorative account of the battle in the Tadjik language which I think is a version of Farsi.

Ed

A bit too many "ifs" for my taste:-)
I have no idea whether the content of inscriptions might help, but no matter what, there are other unquestionably Afghani examples with similar wall-to-wall deeply etched texts along the entire blade. They might be infrequent, but this khyber is not a "unique" example.

The really interesting question would be where were they manufactured: all over the country, or limited to the Persianized ( Shia?) enclaves?