Always a pleasure ;)

As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking).

@broadaxe
Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging.
Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date.
And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee?
Thanks in advance.

William

Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire.
I will try to look up for examples.

By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318

Hi William,

Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece.

Cheers
Chris

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking :o (perhaps someone elso can read it)

Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far...

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers :) it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

My pleasure! :D :D :D


Please do.

Cheers
Chris

Your wish is my command :rolleyes:

I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine.
The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable.

If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know.

Greetz

William

Nice one!

Cheers
Chris

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge ;)

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare.... :cool:

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.


William

Well done and thank you William :) :cool: ,
hopefully with this new 'lead' I can get find more information. Nice epee (that you posted) certainly has a more business-like blade. :cool: Thank you to you and those whom commented on the foil I posted.

Kind Regards David

A pleasure :cool:
but could you please post a picture of the tip?
I'm interested how it was shaped...

William

Hi William,
it seems "Cooper and Goodman" made firearms..and seem to have been based in Birmingham..found this...

"......Mr. Goodman’s connection with the gun trade was of long standing. In 1838, when in the employ of the Scholefields, he entered into partnership with Mr. J.R. Cooper, and subsequently with that gentleman’s brother, Mr. Charles Cooper, the business being carried on at first under the name of J.R. Cooper and Co., and afterwards under that of Cooper and Goodman, until 1888....."

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:Y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

So on that basis the blade was presumably manufactured , at the latest 1888

Here on this page , Lot 869
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:b...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk
"An UNUSUAL .500 Cal. double barrelled Medium Game Rifle by Cooper and Goodman"

and half way down on this page...
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:n...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

"A fine and rare 1856 Pattern rifled service pistol, 25.5cm sighted barrel fitted with rear leaf sights, border engraved lock stamped "1858" over "TOWER" and with a Crown over "VR" at the tail, full stock stamped "WD" and "COOPER & GOODMAN",

After hours of searching ....I'm all googled out ;) Perhaps it is rare ...hopefully one of the 'firearm boys' :p :) may have further information on Cooper and Goodman......please ;)

William will post a picture of the 'point' soon

Kind regards David

Bad news...

I got in touch with a fellow blade collector who said, that the information on the "crown above c.g" needs to be updated...
The crown is not in style of the era for the UK, additionally it is a fact that Cooper and Goodman always marked without a crown. He suspects the marking to have belgian origins.

Sorry, to says so: but we have to start anew.... :(

William

Hi William,
thanks for letting me know ;) ....never mind, I am sure I will discover the maker at a later date. I have even considered whether the blade may be a re-worked swordstick :shrug:

Here are the pictures of the point.(both magnified)

Best Regards David

.

Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original...

I may have another lead on the marking :D

Compare the crown on the following marking with your foil.
The blade belongs to a sword produced in 1875 by the Fabrica Nacional de Toledo in Spain. :cool:

All the best

William

Hi William,
thanks for your continuing input :) . Going back to the Chassepot bayonet marking ...according to the 'caption' the markings of crown and C.G were verified by Anthony Carter. A quick search shows that he is a respected writer on bayonets ...... :confused: :confused:

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

Perhaps he is mis-informed ....or he knows something we don't ;)

However, it was also stated that a number of Chassepots were manufactured in Belgium ......who would have thought a clearly marked blade could be so difficult to identify :shrug:


I am glad it is not just 'wishful thinking' (on my part) that the point may be original to the piece :cool:

Regards David

David, you have a PM.
Fernando

Hello @ all.

Unfortunately Mr Anthony Carter died in 2003... so we won't be able to contact him in regard of the marking.
You won't believe how many "clearly marked" weapons are hard to identify.... for example: the above mentioned "PR" marking on the ebay link.

Perhaps someone has a book on belgian sword markings, which could help identifying the "C.G".

The point LOOKS original, but we are not able to verify it... so we must take the most probable solution to this problem :o

All the best.... and keep looking/searching.

William

I have just been rereading this thread, and it has developed into an absolutely magnificent example of discussion, presentation, interaction and supported observations that display what true weapons study is all about!!
This kind of joint effort in active research is a prime example of what this forum is meant to promote, where not only the participants learn together, but so do our membership and readers.

As I mentioned in the beginning, there are few resources examining the history and typology of fencing weapons, especially pertaining to makers and suppliers, so it is great to have this thread developing.It is completely fascinating to see the joint participation and ongoing research in examining markings and even when the presumed outcome is not realized, moving on to other possibilities...its like watching forensics examination unfolding, and the unproductive trails stand as benchmarks as well.

Thank you all so much!!! Please keep this going, its exciting to finally be able to learn so much on these fencing weapons, and have this thread develop as a resource for collectors future research.

All very best regards,
Jim

William, of course not automatically; this was a process of develpment in the sport. The blade of your Souzy epee does have the deep & narrow milled canellure, but without the additional groove portals for the electric wire. I call this type an intermediate blade. As a point of interesting info, Souzy Paris closed its gates by WWII, so this epee must have been of their later days.

I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences:
1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram.
2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip.
3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point.
4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure.
5. Electric blade.

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons :)
Especially the BPR duelling epee :eek:

:D

I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades?


All the best

William

:cool:

Honour to those who deserve it :rolleyes:

Unfortunately I'm painfully aware that, especially with the introduction of the threaded tang, the weapons are possibly not "original" to one time, but may be assemblys of various "times". By the way, I do the same with my Gardere-handle (1950's) on a 2005 FIE tournament legal epee blade.... ;)
Thanks for the advice anyway.
By the way, it may be interesting to know that the weapon is not assembled correctly: The guard is placed for a left-handed fencer, while the grip is clearly for a right-handed.
To date the weapon correctly (if that is possible) it would be useful to find out more about "Trule, Waffen- und Fechtartikel". Problem is, that if you want to look into the official registration forms you have to pay for it, and the web is silent (MacDougalling doesn't help :) ). But the firm seems to have vanished very fast (or is very old) because even the oldest fencers here do not remember a company with that name.
Perhaps I should spend the money :shrug:

Anyway, we are all waiting for the pictures of your weapons @ broadaxe :cool:

All the best

William

Ok, folks, as promissed, here are pics of the marks on the two epees.

Hi there, nice to see you back :)
Thanks for the detailed pictures, the first one is a mystery and gives no clues (at least for me) to solve it. The second marking can be found from time to time e.g. over here:

http://cgi.ebay.es/ANTIGUO-FLORETE-P...3286.m20.l1116

Do you know which company/forge hides behind B.P.R?

Greets

William

Unfortunately, I don't. :shrug: All the seller had to say was that company no longer exists.

There is still a firm working under the name "BPR" and they are working with metal (producing bending machines), but it seems that they are not identical with this firm...

Regarding the question when Souzy went bankrupt (at least it was still a question for me ;) ) I found a remark in a book on fencing weapons by Heribert Seitz in which he stated that Souzy was producing epee points at least until 1961. I don't know how to verify this information, but... perhaps someone else does. By the way, this Mr. Seitz has published some works on ancient european fencing weapons and is quite famous for his two-volume work which seems to be some kind of standart reference book, at least for antique military weapons. The books themselves seem to be sought after, judging the prices :D

Do you know something about this "PR" marking we had a few posts back on the ebay foil (which went for a horrendous price)? Is it Prieur? They never answered to my request but seem to be in business for some time, they state on their web page:
"Prieur : more than two centuries of skill and experience in fencing equipment. "...


So far

William

So we've met another dead end on this one... :(
perhaps we'll find another one :o

Does anyone know the book: Le "Qui est qui" de l'arme en France de 1350 a 1970
by Buigne?
Seems to cover "our" time and may reveal some answers :shrug:

@broadaxe:
Check your pm's please :rolleyes: