Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   18th Centuary Ottoman Kard. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21246)

mariusgmioc 13th April 2016 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh
Close examination shows no sign of wootz, I have not tried etching but eventually I may try it.

Whether it is wootz or not, it is a very nice kard.

If closer examination doesn't show any signs of wootz, maybe it would be better not to try anything as etching may involve cleaning/polishing the blade first.

estcrh 13th April 2016 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Whether it is wootz or not, it is a very nice kard.

If closer examination doesn't show any signs of wootz, maybe it would be better not to try anything as etching may involve cleaning/polishing the blade first.

This brings up an interesting point. In our time if we were to have a nice dagger, knife or sword made I think most people would choose to have a wootz blade, but I have seen examples of extremely nice weapons that use blades that never had a visible wootz pattern, why would this be.

mariusgmioc 13th April 2016 02:17 PM

I guess there are more reasons to the situation you mentioned.

First, it is the aura of super-steel that "Oriental Damascus" has aquired over the centuries.

Second, it is the scarcity of wootz blades.

Third, may be that a wootz blade is guaranteed antique and genuine.

In my oppinion, the fame of wootz was well deserved up to the 16th century (debatable) since its mechanical properties were superior to most European steels. However, begining with 16th century, European steels improved dramatically and became equal or even superior to wootz. Yet, since the Europeans couldn't create wootz themselves, the aura of oriental mistique remained and even grew further.

As with regards, to wootz scarcity, well, I don't think it is that scarce after all, but the fact that even today there isn't an economically efficient way to produce it, just adds to its fame and mistique.

The third reason is however the only valid one since you will never find a fake wootz blade, unless it isn't wootz but only made to look like it.

Miguel 13th April 2016 06:48 PM

Here is another small Ottoman kard

Lovely example I like the scabbard.
This design of kard as with mine always reminds me of ornate table knives.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel 13th April 2016 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
In the book Rites of Power. Oriental Weapons. ISBN 978-989-658-056-8. Three of these kards are shown, all three are said to be Turkish from the 19th century.

Hi Jens,

I think we are both correct with the dating as my ref says late 18th early 19th C.
Regards
Miguel

estcrh 15th April 2016 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel
Here is another small Ottoman kard

Lovely example I like the scabbard.
This design of kard as with mine always reminds me of ornate table knives.
Regards
Miguel

They certainly do not seem to be weapons, I also have thought of them as fancy knifes for eating.

mariusgmioc 16th April 2016 07:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh
They certainly do not seem to be weapons, I also have thought of them as fancy knifes for eating.

I beg to differ!

They are certainly weapons!

For cutlery you don't need to have such long blades (just have a look at the length of the blade in comparison with the hilt, then compare them with the ottoman cutlery in my example).

Also the pointy tip indicates a weapon and not cutlery. ;)

estcrh 16th April 2016 10:17 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
I beg to differ!

They are certainly weapons!

For cutlery you don't need to have such long blades (just have a look at the length of the blade in comparison with the hilt, then compare them with the ottoman cutlery in my example).

Also the pointy tip indicates a weapon and not cutlery. ;)

I just never saw the puny ones like mine as being anything other then a fancy fruit cutter, with its small hilt and thin blade it just does not feel very weaponish
:shrug: Of course it helps to have something to compare against.

mariusgmioc 16th April 2016 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh
I just never saw the puny ones like mine as being anything other then a fancy fruit cutter, with its small hilt and thin blade it just does not feel very weaponish
:shrug: Of course it helps to have something to compare against.

Yours is smaller because was intended for a child. The size of the hilt should have tipped you off as it is way too small for an adult man's hand.

You don't put Koranic talismanic verses in gold on the blade of a butter knife! ;)

Miguel 18th April 2016 04:23 PM

You don't put Koranic talismanic verses in gold on the blade of a butter knife!
Point well made.
Miguel

estcrh 19th April 2016 12:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Yours is smaller because was intended for a child. The size of the hilt should have tipped you off as it is way too small for an adult man's hand.

You don't put Koranic talismanic verses in gold on the blade of a butter knife! ;)

While it is a possibility I have never seen a photo or drawing of a child with such a knife, in addition the blade is long in relation to the hilt, maybe so as not to get in the way, you can still cut with it easily enough. Was butter popular in the Ottoman empire?

Saracen 12th November 2021 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara (Post 198365)
I've noticed that on some bichaqs the inscriptions are written "upside down". I have one also with a jade hilt and wootz with the gold koftgari inscription written the same way.

Interesting isn't it? :shrug:

It is also interesting that on all kards the inscription in gold koftgari is applied only on the right side of the blade. When you're having dinner with friends and holding a kard in your right hand, who needs an inscription on the left side of the blade? Only the owner sees the left side :)


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