Filipino/Moro Martial Arts question...

[KuKulzA28]

No toes are intended to be stepped on here.
I am not a practitioner of Filipino fighting.
I'm no master historian on this topic.
I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places. I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.

The body can only move efficiently in certain ways and there's only so many viable fighting principles that can be applied - let us not get hung up on style too much. While I understand there can be a general categorization of blades and that similar principles apply to different blades - there's always subtleties and movements unique to the particular weapon. For example, a da-dao and a chang-dao may use similar movements, but one is a closer-range chopper, the other has a very long reach and a sharp point. It's user's tactics would be different. Or for example a rapier and a jian. Both are double-edged, long stabbing swords, but can slash and often require a lot of finesse to use effectively. However, the guard on rapiers is very different than that of the jian. The rapier also emphasizes a lot of thrusts, parrying, and in the old days, locks and daggers. The jian, while being similar, still emphasizes a lot of cutting, and is not commonly seen with a dagger which seems to be a very European take on the finesse-oriented fencing sword. They both had a similar role in their respective societies and battlefields though.
What I am saying is: did Visayans blend these Moro weapons with their styles of fighting, or apply Moro fighting to moro swords?

So while long-blade principles in Visayan arts may apply well to a Kris or Barong, would they have all the subtleties of the Moro practitioner? DO those even matter (except when two warriors would be fundamentally equal in skill)? Even if it looks different perhaps they both use the 'moro' sword effectively? Also, kris have been used all the way up to Luzon, even if slightly different, Spanish influenced, and of lesser quality. The Visayan area also had contact with Borneo and the Moros, where these 'Moro' weapons were "from". There is no doubt they had barongs and kris, and there's no doubt at all that they encountered them in battle.


I suspect no one knows the answer for sure, but maybe we can discuss? :shrug: :D

[kai]

Hello Vinny,

I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.
Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...

In my experience, a garab is a completely different animal than, say, a barung. And from what little I've been able to glean, these 2 blades are employed very differently. There are enough sleek folks around and I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of just about anything they might pick up! However, there's still a fundamental difference between making something work and studying a traditional "tool" of any good MA system...

BTW, I still have to see any antique kerambit from the Philippines. Obviously, there are also "fashion" influences in MA circles...

Regards,
Kai

[KuKulzA28]

A garab and a barong are SO different, I agree. However, its interesting you should mention these as I have never seen/watched anyone "native user" fight with either one. Pinutis, other pointed bolos, sansibars, and ginuntings seem more popular in the general arnis/eskrima/kali you see...
But do you see tenegre? Talibong? Sanduko? Bonafacio bolo? Kris? Barong? Kampilan? Pira? Nope... at least I haven't
__________________________

Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...Interesting that they would turn around an embrace the Moro's (long-time enemies') weapons. I guess it is because the Moro are a sort of symbol of resistance. But I feel like the Moro's success had more to do with a more unified resistance as opposed to the myriad of tribal groups and small territories of most everyone else. A talibong or a pinuti doesn't look inferior to a kris or barong in my eyes - just different. Cebuano's, who have fought Moros for many many years, cannot have been significantly martially inferior to them... and with that in mind, they probably weren't that much inferior to the Spaniards militarily.
__________________________

Ah and of course, martial arts has all sorts of fashions... tactical fashion, super-traditionalist fashion, scientific fashion, no-combat-all-health fashion, meditative-philosophical fashion, moro-fashion, Butterfly-sword-fashion, Mixed-martial-arts-fashion, etc.etc. :D fads are funny things, but very harmful sometimes :(

[Maurice]

Maybe you will find the answer overhere!

http://www.silat.tv/

Kind regards,
Maurice

[David]

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

[Maurice]

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.


Yes, But on the link I posted earlier also Kali practitioners can be found. Not only silat styles!

[David]

I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places.
Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post. :)

[Maurice]

Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post. :)
OK David, I missed it. :rolleyes:

[t_c]

Hi - Interesting topic, this is a little aside, but I thought I'd offer my two cents about the term "Kali" as I think it has been developing some false associations. These are just my own opinions/observations and I know these discussions can be contentious, so please understand that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. (I'm open to being corrected. :) )

The term Kali is not a tell-all as regards to where a style is from: i.e. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I've never heard anyone associated with PTK say that the style originates from the southern Philippines or is a Moro art. Personally I see the adoption of the term "Kali" for more cultural reasons: would you really want your nation's traditional martial arts referenced in the language of a colonial power? If I remember correctly Tuhon Leo Gaje first made this point during one of his pre-seminar talks.

In trying to recollect a discussion somewhere else in the binary stream, I believe it was said that Dan Inosanto was the first person who used the term in print in his book on FMA and then it took off in common usage from there. The term may be a fairly modern one.

I live in the US, and here, the only style that I have ever seen that I would consider to have influence from Silat is Villabrille Largusa Kali, and mainly because they use "cross-over" footwork similar to Sempok/Dembok in Silat (one foot steps in front or back of the other - from my experience a big no-no in other FMA - never cross your feet). Talking with an instructor of mine regarding that style, it appears that they do orient some of their movements towards dealing with heavier weapons which could be an indicator of Keris, etc (my inference - not my teacher's). But then again, the history page posted on the Villabrille Largusa site talks about Villabrille fighting a Moro Prince (http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/villabrille.html) who practices Silat/Kuntao....

So if you are searching for info on Moro arts I would caution you in relying on the term "Kali" alone.

I hope someone has some good info for you though - I often been curious about the same subject. I think you are on the right track though with the connection between movement and light vs heavy weapon: very different games. Another avenue of research may be Borneo....

[KuKulzA28]

Topic resurrection...

I was watching Mr. Cecil Quirino's "Crossing the Sulu Seas"... while it is somewhat old and patchy(?) it's a nice little documentary. It is interesting that Sali learned his martial art from a master in Sabah... which is on the northern tip of Borneo island... Are there not quite a few Moros there, adjacent to the Sultanate of Brunei? Perhaps you are right in suggesting Borneo as a place to research as well.

As MABAGANI said at the 14th post on topic: Barung(s) for you (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=222&highlight=garab)

btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

-------------------------------------------------

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

[Dimasalang]

Im not a believer in the term "Kali" also. It is a made up word...and now it has taken on many different associations. Also, to call Eskrima or Arnis "Kali" is not correct...this is my own personal belief. Eskrima/Arnis is a system developed by Christian Filipinos(most particularly from the Visayan region). To understand more you have to look deeper in history...and not necessarily FMA history but overall history. Everyone fails to realize the Moros were ruthless radical 'pirates'...and they dealt heavily in kidnapping for slavery and slave trading up until the Americans took over. Even in present day 2009, there is still instances of Moros kidnapping for slavery, particularly of christian Filipinos..it is in their culture to do so as some of them believe it is their religious right to do so. Looking back, one particular event where Visayan warriors trained in a type of system to fight the Moros was documented by the Spanish...look up Captain Juan de Chaves when he and 300 Spaniards along with 1000 Visayan warriors sailed to Mindanao to invade and take over Zamboanga in 1635. Fort Pilar was established, and from that period on, was nothing but battles and wars between the Spanish/Visayans and the Moros in Zamboanga history. It is important to keep in mind, the Spanish 'claimed' the Philippine islands, but they did not have full control of the southern region. Thousands of Moros have died fighting the Spanish, but they were in fact still undefeated by the Spanish. The Spanish prohibited 'Freedom of Religion'. If the Spanish had control over the Moros, there would be no more Philippine Moros...they all would have been killed off or converted to Catholics.

Much later, different Eskrima systems were developed and established by Christian Filipinos to protect their family, personal property, and land from these marauding Moros who would invade their coastal villages. It was not until the late 18 to early 1900s when these systems began to be documented and recorded. Being Cebu and southern Visayan regions were the major hot beds for piracy, you can see and understand why and how a martial art system came about and developed more drastically then any other part of the Philippines.

I just have to say also, we Filipinos are a proud race, and being of a mixed cross culture, we tend to try and find ourselves...meaning, trying to find the origin of our roots on what is authentic and original...what is truly Filipino in origin. And that sometimes means trying to meat out the Spanish and American influence. Some going as far as trying to eliminate Spanish terms, changing the name of Philippines, or bringing back the pre-spanish native writing script of Alibata/Baybayin...makes sense as to why some FMAs do not like the Spanish terms 'eskrima' or 'arnis'. The Filipino martial artist who are coming up with these new terms, like Kali and PRE-Spanish terms, are only trying to establish or set themselves apart as being so-called 'original and authentic' and purely Filipino with no outside influence(since any type of influence may seem unoriginal, mixed, and diluted)...this is nearly impossible. We have 300+ years of Spanish influence that can not be ignored, along with 100 years of American influence...and I dont see any type of system that has survived for 400+ years that can be slated as being 'original'. Unlike other cultures like the Chinese and Japanese, one thing we Filipinos lacked severely, recording and documentation in writing. Was there a Moro fighting system?...I am sure there was, but the "terms" and specific words for them within the Philippines are long gone, forgotten, and not remembered. In reality, there is no Kampilan, Kris, or Barong fighting system in Eskrima...like I mentioned, Eskrima is a martial art developed by Christians, it would make no sense for them to be using Muslim weaponry. I know many Eskrima banners carry the Moro Muslim weapon symbols...as I believe these symbols are there to honor and recognize their fight with the Moros and against these types of weapons...nothing else, they do not practice with any those weapons. And if they do use those weapons and call their art Eskrima, then that is something new and/or should be questioned. If you are wondering more about some type of Moro fighting system; as others have said, look to Borneo...at one point in the past; Sulu, Palawan, Mindanao, and Borneo were all seen as one and the same region. Many of the Moro Filipinos of the south associate and relate themselves more with Borneo then they do with the general Filipino population of the north and central regions.

[Dimasalang]

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

The Pulahan Derobio group "should" have incorporated the Talibong/Garab in to their system. I know this group well as its main HQ comes out of San Diego and I have been in a couple of their seminars. I believe they just don't know well enough or lack the weapons to train with them...they use what every other FMA has for training(a piece of aluminum).

In regards to other eskrima groups. Well, going by the famous Blind Princess fable...being she was from the Ganadara mountain region of Samar, she was a Pulahan. Her two famous renowned students were Floro Villabrille and Felicisimo Dizon. Dizon is still a great mystery in the Eskrima world, not much is really known about him...it is believed he was born in the 1890s and much older then all the other Grandmasters or masters of the early Eskrima era. He would later become the teacher of Antonio Ilustrisimo and Angel Cabales at the piers in Tondo Manila(~1930s?)...Tondo is the toughest and worst section of Manila even today. I believe they were not really hell bent on having precise weapons like the Garab/Talibong for training...so I really doubt their systems today incorporates them even though that is possibly the sword they used originally. Either way, you might want to check out any one of those systems to see their blade oriented techniques and if they may be still applicable to a Garab/Talibong. Hope that helps. :D

Tatang Ilustrisimo in his 90s demonstrating with live blades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ

[ThePepperSkull]

I am very interested in looking into how Moro Silat differs from modern eskrima/arnis.

As a practitioner of Filipino Eskrima and of Indonesian Silat, I can definitely see the difference between those fighting systems. The Eskrima style I learned was from my instructor's family style, updated by him after he studied Lameco Escrima under the late Edgar Sulite. Escrima/arnis/kali, at least under the lameco school of thought, covers a series of ranges hence the name (which is short for 'Largo, Medio, Corto' or 'long, medium, short' range). Generally the stances in modern FMA are practiced standing up on both legs, shoulder-width apart. There is a focus on footwork (like many, if not most sword or weapons based fighting systems) and there seems to be no shortage of stabbing motions taught for the use of bladed weapons. Trapping/sticking/checking hands also seems to be a common thing being practiced among us arnisadors as well. Our strikes tend to be quick and we focus on optimizing the efficacy of our strikes: in power, recorvery time, and where we aim for to be more effective. A strike like the Abaniko, or 'fan strike' as many call it, seems to be one that comes to mind to characterize what I have described.

As opposed to that, the indonesian-based Silat I've practiced (Indonesian Mande Muda and some bruneian silat suffian bela diri) has a focus on what it deems effective but the focus differs. There is a focus on range, but also a focus on stances. Silat practitioners train to fight standing up, kneeling with one knee down, on both their knees, and in many instances sitting down as well. I was taught that this was because many areas, depending on where the style of Silat is practiced and was fought, there was rougher terrain. To fight standing up in a muddy area or area where there was loose soil would meant that sometimes you would need to fight if you slipped and fell down, because your opponent would not hesitate to strike while you were down (nor should he hesitate). To prepare oneself to fight in a compromised position, then, could be seen as a necessity depending on the area. I've also noticed that as opposed to the more quick, rapid recovery strikes of escrima, Silat prefers an array of wide sweeping motions in their weapons strikes intended for deep penetrative cuts. Longer blades have none or close to no use of stabbing motions in contrast to escrima, although shorter blade training in silat does focus a lot on stabbing.

Does anyone on here practice Moro Silat? How do the weapons application of your arts differ from what I have described that is common among Indonesian Silat and Filipino Arnis/Escrima?


(As a side note, I know many people have some hangups about how authentic the term 'kali' is, the general consensus being 'not at all', but many arts under the 'kali' banner are just as effective as any art labelled under the name of escrima or arnis that I have seen. Is Pekiti Tirsia any less effective since it changed its name from Pekiti Tirsia Arnis to Pekiti Tirsia kali? I think not and in that respect I have no prejudices about the name. If it's effective it's worth learning in my opinion. Although from a historical standpoint I understand your concerns about its now widespread usage.)

[Rick]

Just a question here; have any of you seen the staged combat sequences from Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil Quirino's vid ?

Any comments if you have ?

[David]

Does anyone on here practice Moro Silat? How do the weapons application of your arts differ from what I have described that is common among Indonesian Silat and Filipino Arnis/Escrima?
I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this? :shrug:

[KuKulzA28]

I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this? :shrug:
Their neighbors and cousins in Brunei, Sabah, and Kalimantan call their fighting arts Silat I think. Their long-term enemies and distant relations to the north in Luzon and the Visayas call it Eskrima/Arnis/Kali. Since the Moros are culturally closer to the Borneo melayu, I guess it could be safe to refer to it as Moro silat. Though if we knew what they comonly called it themselves, we'd probably call it that... whatever it is.

[ThePepperSkull]

I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this? :shrug:

The Moro martial arts are referred to as either "Silat", "Kuntaw"/"Kuntao", or a combination of both. The names of the style come from the tribe (for example a silat player from Basilan would practice "Silat Saudara Yakan" at home). I've heard that calling it 'filipino silat' is incorrect as they never swore allegiance to king felipe of spain and would rather have it referred to as 'mindanao silat' in general terms. Calling it 'Muslim silat' is also incorrect AFAIK, as many seem to acknowledge that the art was there before the arrival of the muslims. For discussion purposes I will call it Moro Silat to describe it as the art of the bangsamoro people. A big difference between moro silat and indonesian silat is that It's more of a private affair in mindanao rather than a nationally acknowledged activity like in indonesia. The teacher-student dynamic is more individual and less group lesson focused and generally the styles passed down are between family members. In this respect it is very difficult to find an authentic Silat/Kuntaw teacher, much less find one who would be willing to teach outside of his bloodline or extended family. As a result I have seen very little of these styles, but have seen enough to draw certain conclusions.

The Moro martial arts seem to have a closer relationship stylistically to that of Indonesian and Bruneian Silat. Footwork is similar to indonesian silat, as are some stances when comparing to how different modern Arnis is. Blade movement seems, superficially, more similar to bruneian Silat. Again, these are conclusians I have drawn from observing what very little I have seen of Moro Martial Arts.

The Moro martial arts seem older and more traditional to me, whereas visayan/luzon based escrima/arnis has a lot of european influence. The footwork in modern arnis is very similar to styles like Portugese Jogo De Pau. I may be digressing from the main topic, but as a side note I should add that Jogo De Pau is very recent, having been first recorded in history around the 1910's. It's a long stick art primarily, with a significant portion of training dedicated to short stick work in place of a sword, much like Arnis. here is an example of some Jogo de pau sparring. The basic strikes, blocks, and footwork seen in Arnis can be seen here as well, although arnis' footwork is less linear and more angular because of the S.E.A. influence. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg) Arnis also employs the use of 'sticky', or trapping hands: possibly the influence of the chinese/taiwanese martial arts or perhaps even Indian martial arts with their use of a katar in the non-sword hand. We move in similar ways when we have a knife or no weapon in the non-sword hand.

[ThePepperSkull]

As opposed to that, the indonesian-based Silat I've practiced (Indonesian Mande Muda and some bruneian silat suffian bela diri) has a focus on what it deems effective but the focus differs.

I made an error in this post. I meant to type out "Harimau", but I think I may have been watching a suffian bela diri video on youtube while typing this and it got into my head as I typed. Apologies all around!


I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style'). I post this because I believe this is some of the very few footage we have access to in terms of Moro fighting systems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNentRsIkWE


And here we see Manong Lacoste performing a very similar from to that of his predecessor, Telesporo SubingSubing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpsGcT5j2Vg

It's said that Lacoste was a sailor in Mindanao when he met and trained under SubingSubing. I thought it was interesting enough to share with you gentlemen. Hopefully it will give us all more insight into how these blades were used.

[Rick]

I see definite similarities to the footage in Cecil's documentary .
Thanks for this .

[Battara]

I agree Rick. Very similar. Even then, there the Indonesian forms go very low and one of the older Moros on Cecil's work that learned from an older Moro stood more upright more of the time. Also most of the pictures of fighting Moros from the turn of the century through the 1940s I also see Moros fighting or practicing upright.

Interesting how things evolve.

[ThePepperSkull]

Great observation.

I find that a lot of Phillippine martial arts takes into account the range in terms of distance between fighters (Largo, medio, corto ranges; or Long, Medium, and close ranged hand to hand or weapons combat), however Silat styles take another range into account. This being how far you are from the ground.

I was taught in Mande Muda Silat to fight standing upright, crouched, and while sitting. I know Harimau styles have this training dynamic, as well as many other Silat fighting systems. Perhaps moro fighting systems have had this as well.

If we take a look at the videos, notice how both SubingSubing and Lacoste are both standing, and progressively bending their knees lower and lower as if to transition into a crouching position (In the SubingSubing video, he is actually crouching while demonstrating some stickwork at timestamp 2:08). Note subingsubing's tendency to lean into and crouch while striking. In Cecil's film, the demonstrations are also often performed in a range of positions; crouched, standing, I believe it was the Barong demonstration (recalling from memory, I could be wrong) that had one gentleman kneeling while exchanging blows.

The standing-kneeling-sitting dynamic of combat training is being adopted by a lot of FMA schools in more recent years, but this is a distinctly Silat characteristic in terms of origin.

[Battara]

Although I have had only what I consider an introduction to arnis/escrima, I remember being taught upright but with bent knees and being able to be near the ground or upright. I guess bent knees and mobility of range are a must to these island forms.

[KuKulzA28]

Awesome, thanks for posting up the video links! The Chinese martial art I practice also emphasizes this. 3 ranges (long, medium, short), as well as 3 heights... this and footwork allows for one to have superior positioning. :)

[Dimasalang]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing those videos. :)

[kai]

I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style').
Well, this looks very Visayan to me. (BTW, I love the way he moves!)

AFAIK, Telesporo SubingSubing came from Balamban, Cebu. There are some old Visayan outposts on Mindanao and during the last century many Visayans settled throughout Mindanao. From all accounts there is no open teaching of any traditional Moro MA/Silat on this island (if any); the Sulu archipelago might be a better place to look for genuine Moro MA but even there you'd have to be careful not to run into Visayan MA nowadays...

Regards,
Kai

[ThePepperSkull]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of how widespread the Visayan arts were back then. Although I do find it unfortunate that this did not end up being actual moro martial arts, I appreciate the clarificaion very much. Thanks for the input, kai!

[Dimasalang]

I'd really like to get in to this area also and learn(or at least have a better understanding) the origins of Moro Martial Arts, as well as Visayan Martial Arts. I do not have a firm understanding of either right now, right now I take a style stemming from Cebu...and from class, the history doesn't go that deep. So this thread intrigues me, and I hope you guys can further help me in which ever way. As I posted earlier, I find it interesting that Moro arts seems to be so hidden from the public eye...obviously there is an art, but even today most people have no clue on what it is or what it looks like. So Subingsubing kinda fascinates me as most seem to associate him with Moro arts. I just did a search right now and found this post in a martial arts forum. This guys seems to be well hearsed in FMA history, and makes claims that possibly can be supported. Just thought I'd throw this in there. :)

This is in response to the poster's inquiry on Waray Eskrima. With regard to that story of Villabrille learning eskrima from a Waray-waray in the fabled Gandara Island, it's a fantasy made up by people who wanted to add mystical elements into the FMA. I've gone to Gundara myself to check for any eskrima lineage and the result: NIL! All I found there were tons of tahong, sorry to disappint Tagadat, but no eskrima! So let's scrap that Blind Princess Josefina B.S. once and for all. If at all there existed a so-called blind princess in Gundara, I can only surmise that she must have been a member of the Pulahan movement. From historical facts gathered, the Pulahan movement in Samar-Leyte area was brought by Cebuano insurrectos that came along with the first wave of Basak Pardo blacksmiths who were fugitives from the Spanish authorities.

There were actually two entry points of these Cebuano Pulahans and blackmiths in Leyte, one was in Carrigara led by the Tabada and de la Pena families of Pardo and the other was in Padre Burgos in Southern Leyte. No less the Filemenon TAbada the son of the first wave of Tabadas told me this story, he was about 74 years old when I met him in 2003. Now with regard to Andrew Abrian who's the only living Waray-waray that I know who is into eskrima, his system is Moro-moro Orabes Heneral. I can only name one person who has a credible lineage of the Moro-moro style: the late Telesporo Subingsubing of Balamban, again this sounds boring, TAGA CEBU lang gihapon! Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain, how many times do I have to repeat this and yet, some idiots continue to insist that the Moro-moro of Sonny Umpad, Subingsubing and Andrew Adrian come from our Muslim brethren's... no less than my Tausug friend of the Bangsa Moro Arts can attest to this fact. When the book on the Bangsa Moro Arts which i and ned have the privilege to proof read a lot of B.S. circulated in the FMA is going to to be debunked once and for all including that KALI baloney!

I don't think Abrian got his eskrima from a Waray-waray, again we have to base these on historical facts that we've gathered in our field research.

Derobio Eskrima of General Ablin must have been imported from Cebu via the Pulahans and the Pardo blacksmiths... one of them was a certain Gorio a Cebuano eskrimador from Pardo who migrated to Carrigara and later married one of the Tabada women. Now, let's dig further whether there is really eskrima indigenous and originating in Waraylandia... of the people I sought and talked with in Tacloban, they learned eskrima from an old man who passed away a few years ago named Gualberto Sillar...however after much sleuthing, I found out that Gualberto Sillar who was one of the late Edgar Sulite's Waray teachers learned eskrima from Melecio Ilustrisimo of Kinatarcan Island-CEBU na naman! I wish i could find an authentic eskrima coming from the Waray's, I go there almost every week and I've even learned to speak Waray-waray like " maruyag ako haim...damo malidong ug madakmol adi Tacloban.." meaning ( Ganahan kaayo ko nimo, pagkadaghang mamords ug bigot diri sa Tacloban!). Tell him not to worry, I like the Waray-warays, but our research so far to look for authentic Waray-waray eskrima proved futile, they still lead to Cebu. No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[ThePepperSkull]

And here, I thought I was providing some helpful info when really I perpetuated some FMA-half truth I've been seeking to rid myself of!

Very informative post, Dimasalang! I find that a lot of FMA, because of the lack of a cohesive martial history, is steeped in this sort of half-truth and barely researched history that I really detest. A lot of it I was fed and believed until recent years and decided to joing message boards such as this to clarify which was myth and which was truth. It's very difficult to unlearn what I've come to accept as complete truth, but forum members like you and kai make the experience so enriching that I'm glad I decided to dig deeper.

I found this part of your quoted post in particular most interesting:

Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain



This was also of interest to me, as it helped me understand why FMA really stands out stylistically when compared to other styles from neigboring regions and why a lot of widespread FMA has been attributed to have origins from just a few specific regions of the Philippines:

No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[Dimasalang]

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.

It is also a great peeve of mine to hear our history(general or of martial arts) being given in half-truth history lessons. Given our culture, the elders are always correct in speaking(even when it is their opinion), and the young must never question and must obey. Our elders never want document anything in writing...I don't understand why. And look at our history now, it is filled with so many holes, us Fil-Ams have a hard time finding and understanding our own identity when we go looking for it...there is no real reference and things just contradict one another...it ends up making no sense at all. Even older eskrimadors don't want to put their curriculum and lessons in writing...they all feel what ever is in their brain is enough. My only guess would be they believe their written secrets can get stolen? Just think, as it is being shown now, when they die, they take to the grave that great legacy as well. When one master falls, so does part of FMA history. So this is why I think it is important now(in this moment in time) to figure all this out...while there are still some old school eskrimadors walking around. Best way would be to interview and document for ourselves, since they sure don't want to.

I believe the quote you highlight about the Moro Moro plays should be emphasized above all else first. Most, even now in the Philippines, when they hear the term "Moro Moro Plays" they associate it with the war between the Spanish and the Moros of southern Philippines...which is untrue. As stated in the quote, the plays are about the war in southern Spain when the "Moors" from north Africa invaded. Moors is the English term; the Spanish have always called the Moors "Moros" since the very beginning. It is from the north African Moors(Moros), where the Spanish gave the southern Philippine Muslims their name "Moros". And it is through the reenactment of these Moro Moro plays "Christianized" Filipinos hid and practiced their martial art.

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.
:D

[ThePepperSkull]

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.


Indeed. This is why I enjoy this particular forum. FMA sites tend to derail into petty bickering, as the rules are never clearly stated or enforced, and people in other forums have a habit of being too invested emotionally into an argument.

Here, we can disagree yet still maintain an enjoyable degree of polite discourse. Because of this, I find that we accomplish more. The purpose of this message board seems to lead more towards what is correct, and not who is correct. A very very welcome change in my internet experience.



After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.
:D

...or perhaps we can convince him through e-mail to join us here and further enrich our discussion? Both about Moro fighting systems and Visayan (namely Cebuano) fighting systems. I'm sure many of us would appreciate his input.

[KuKulzA28]

:) I'd like to thank all the participants of this discussion for where the discussion was gone... I started out with a curious question and now we're discussing the origins of some very specific styles and some very murky and obscure histories....

I have almost nothing to add... I know so little about this area
but I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. So, thanks guys.

[harimauhk]

Hi PepperSkull,

Just thought I'd point out that the term "kuntao" is Chinese in origin, and would probably not be used by the Moro to describe their own arts. It is the same as "kune do" in Jeet Kune Do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntao

[migueldiaz]

hi harimauhk, thanks for that post. didn't know that.

this will be pure speculation on my part, as research still needs to be done: given the fact that the chinese influenced the moros a lot, especially the tausugs (i.e., the people of sulu), then perhaps chinese martial arts somehow influenced the tausugs also.

even that signature everyday jacket-vest ("chaleco") of the moros is thought to be of chinese influence, for instance.

and of course everybody knows about the chinese-markings-stamped barungs.

another anecdotal evidence -- one of the most prominent filipino historians today is prof. (dr.) samuel k. tan. he is actually tausug! and yet he is a protestant. talking about cross-pollination! :)


Hi PepperSkull,

Just thought I'd point out that the term "kuntao" is Chinese in origin, and would probably not be used by the Moro to describe their own arts. It is the same as "kune do" in Jeet Kune Do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntao

[migueldiaz]

Our elders never want document anything in writing...I don't understand why. And look at our history now, it is filled with so many holes, us Fil-Ams have a hard time finding and understanding our own identity when we go looking for it... Even older eskrimadors don't want to put their curriculum and lessons in writing...they all feel what ever is in their brain is enough. My only guess would be they believe their written secrets can get stolen?dimasalang, i feel your pain ;) :)

on the non-documentation of things by our forefathers, i think it's a case to case basis. because as i'm sure you also know, the so-called "philippine insurgent records" (the term used by the americans for those docs gathered during the occupation period) are literally several tons of papers (gathered from the fleeing phil. forces from 1898 up to their surrender).

they continue to be a treasure trove of info for researchers here in manila.

but you are definitely right that other than those bunch of very impt. papers, there's nothing much original (i.e., written by filipinos themselves).

of course we do have the spaniards' accounts, via those parchment records. there's that built-in bias in their reporting understandably.

but as one author said, there are "cracks in the parchment curtain" (cf. iron and bamboo curtains of ussr and china). thus we still can see what the true picture was, through the "cracks", in spite of the state-controlled reporting.

also we do have a lot of myths and epics, passed down through generations via oral tradition.

for sure there's a lot of hyperbole and other exaggerations in there. but still our peoples' way of life (including their weapons) are well-preserved in those epics and legends.

on martial arts, i agree with you that the reason why the teachers don't put that in writing is for fear that they might get stolen.

i mean if your life depended on it, why give away the ace up your sleeve?

on the other hand, those battles are things of the past (well mostly).

hence i think filipino martial arts (fma) schools everywhere should agree that they should divulge all their secrets to one another. and the common objective is to take the martial arts to a new level.

i know that is easier said than done.

but if fma is to be made even better, then the old mind set has to be thrown out the window ...

just my two cent(avos) :)

[Battara]

This also happened to many Chinese martial arts as well and thus a lot of knowledge has been lost over the years as well.

Also, just to make it clear, there has been trade and Chinese in the Philippines for a 1000 years or more.

[migueldiaz]

Also, just to make it clear, there has been trade and Chinese in the Philippines for a 1000 years or more.Indeed :)

And what's good is that the Chinese like to put things in writing. Thus the Chinese records dating back to more than a thousand years ago (describing trade with the Philippines -- the Chinese were not interested in conquest, they're in for the trade) continue to be excellent source materials in the reconstruction of our country's precolonial past.

[harimauhk]

Yep, the Chinese influence is evident in the Phils, particularly more recent influence. I was surprised to see dim sum for sale everywhere and I bought some hopia at Goldilocks without realizing they're traditionally served at Chinese weddings! Filipino culture really is such a hodgepodge of cultures.

The Chinese did indeed take good records of their impressions of foreign lands. I've come across a few in the last year or so and they were very interesting. I didn't know the Chinese had had a significant influence on the Moros and Tausugs though!

[Battara]

I didn't know the Chinese had had a significant influence on the Moros and Tausugs though!
Oh yes, lots of trade and influence with the Chinese, Japanese, Indonesians, Indians, even some Arabs.

[FilAmfighter1]

dimasalang, i feel your pain ;) :)


also we do have a lot of myths and epics, passed down through generations via oral tradition.

for sure there's a lot of hyperbole and other exaggerations in there. but still our peoples' way of life (including their weapons) are well-preserved in those epics and legends.

on martial arts, i agree with you that the reason why the teachers don't put that in writing is for fear that they might get stolen.

i mean if your life depended on it, why give away the ace up your sleeve?

on the other hand, those battles are things of the past (well mostly).

hence i think filipino martial arts (fma) schools everywhere should agree that they should divulge all their secrets to one another. and the common objective is to take the martial arts to a new level.

i know that is easier said than done.

but if fma is to be made even better, then the old mind set has to be thrown out the window ...

just my two cent(avos) :)
Here is my two centavos on this-
I am teacher of a FMA system that comes from the Visayan Mountains. My teacher favored the Pinute. He always told me that it was chinese that brought steel making to the island and then the Filipinos learn how from them. Many Chinese married into families in the Visayan region. He said that Chinese made trade weapons and swapped for gold along time ago.
I have taken a number of my weapons and used them working out. What I have found is this: The type of strike and grace of motion is effected by shape and the weight of the blade. Depending if the FMA system and range you fight affects the sword, sword & dagger you would use. Yes many systems have influence of Indonisian, Spanish & Chinese as they would cross over when fighting and spying on them. I am current working on book on the basics of Filipino Martial Arts, it based upon my research of working with 30 different masters and teachers and keeping notes on common threads. The names of some of the moves may be different due to local dialect but the motion is always the same.

[migueldiaz]

Here is my two centavos on this-
I am teacher of a FMA system that comes from the Visayan Mountains. My teacher favored the Pinute. He always told me that it was chinese that brought steel making to the island and then the Filipinos learn how from them. Many Chinese married into families in the Visayan region. He said that Chinese made trade weapons and swapped for gold along time ago.
I have taken a number of my weapons and used them working out. What I have found is this: The type of strike and grace of motion is effected by shape and the weight of the blade. Depending if the FMA system and range you fight affects the sword, sword & dagger you would use. Yes many systems have influence of Indonisian, Spanish & Chinese as they would cross over when fighting and spying on them. I am current working on book on the basics of Filipino Martial Arts, it based upon my research of working with 30 different masters and teachers and keeping notes on common threads. The names of some of the moves may be different due to local dialect but the motion is always the same.FilAmfighter1, thanks for your comments! Looking forward to the publication of your book.

I met in Manila once the head of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). He told me that in their field, some architects would keep their cards close to their chest.

But this person (a prominent architect in the US) said that he does the opposite. He shares everything to his competitors he said.

And his goal is simple -- he wants the other architects to better him, so that in turn he'd be able to come back and beat them. And then another cycle ensues ... and so forth and so on. A virtuous cycle is thus created.

And he said that that's how things can be brought to the next level.

I am not into FMA or any martial arts (my first love was firearms and explosives). But if I were into FMA, I'd encourage my mentors to adopt that mindset :)

[Dimasalang]

^^

I believe in what you are saying, and it would make sense to do so. This keeps the wheels turning for all parties and this is how a system "evolves". Bruce Lee being the best example and greatest innovator of what you speak of. His style was basically stealing techniques and moves from several arts and making them his own. Did I say stealing?...maybe I should of said borrowing. :D BUT, I can only agree with you up to a certain extent. Personally, I have seen many things that just don't make any sense to me in Martial Arts(not just FMA). Giving away or sharing trade secrets can only work up to a certain point...anything beyond and that is now the head chief giving away his treasured recipes. It is what keeps food on the table, a roof over your head, and clothes on your kids backs..all the while sticking with tradition of the ones who came before and established the art. Some of the more advanced teachings and/or secrets would only make sense to the practitioner who has been studying that particular art for a long time. But still, I can see how a chief can share ideas and put twists on dishes that are universal...that I would say is as far as I would see it going for more traditional schools. Grabbing certain secrets and/or moves from different arts for your own benefit helps you become a more well rounded fighter, BUT, the person also loses the essence behind the other arts he grabbed from. Essence as in foundation, a true understanding, or history to go by. Evolving is a good thing...but that is also not for everyone. Not everyone wants to evolve or follow the path most Martial Art schools have gone today...most of which is now geared towards "SPORT" fighting. Sport fighting will not save you on the street. My own school, we tend to stick to traditional eskrima...which is older style from the 50-60s. Why?..because that was considered the golden era of stick fighting, where there were death matches. My own teachers belief...he wants to keep the old school tradition in its purest form(nothing added) and not evolve...as he feels the style from the death match era is what works best on the street. And personally, this is why FMA is considered one of the best and most raw of all martial arts. Forget all that fancy stick twirling most FMA school glamorize, in true raw form FMA isn't pretty, but it is straight to the point and it works. This is why it is so effect on the street...and when street fighting, the most dangerous person is not the guy you are fighting, it is the guys friends that you have to be more aware of. FMA has always took in to account multiple attackers...but now a days, with MMA and WEKAF, most FMA schools are also going the sport route. And after much training in his class, I notice we tend to stay on the old path. Just to throw this out there...what I find always works best is simple and basic striking. But the key is more then just Bunal(striking)...the key is to hit and not get hit. You can apply that to any art. Every single school will teach you how to hit...but how many schools teach you on how to NOT get hit.

I know that all sounds like I am rambling. I guess basically what I am trying to say is, everyone has a preference on how and what they want to learn. Me personally, I wanted to learn a traditional FMA...aside from just pure self defense on the street; I wanted to learn for the cultural heritage part. So obviously, a FMA school that changes with the times by adding this and that and does what every other martial art school is doing; that really is not for me. Hope that all made sense. :)

[Dimasalang]

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.
:D

Just to mention, I have been reading this book. And wow, there is a wealth of information on how FMA came to be. I strongly suggest reading this book if you are curious on the development of FMA(particularly eskrima from the Visayas region) during the Spanish/Moro era. Everything just makes so much more sense to me. :D Not everything in the book is concrete evidence, but much of it makes good sense and gives one a much better understanding of the overall history. Other aspects not clearly answered should open other doors to look through for more information..in other words, having better direction on where to look.

Just a bit of info from the book. In a nut shell... If seeking info on Moro arts, look to Silat. FMA, Arnis, and eskrima in general does NOT follow any form of Moro martial art. Any FMA art not falling under Silat that uses Moro clothing and weapons should be questioned. Eskrima is a tried and true Filipino Christian martial art unique to only the Philippines and evolved from fighting with the Moro raiders. :D

[Rick]

We also remember that when the Spanish first took Manila there was a Moro Datu or Sultan there at the time .

They might have been more than occasional raiders .

[migueldiaz]

I guess basically what I am trying to say is, everyone has a preference on how and what they want to learn. Me personally, I wanted to learn a traditional FMA...aside from just pure self defense on the street; I wanted to learn for the cultural heritage part. So obviously, a FMA school that changes with the times by adding this and that and does what every other martial art school is doing; that really is not for me. Hope that all made sense. :)Yup, to each his own, and what you said makes a lot of sense. Thanks also for the summary of that book you mentioned.

We also remember that when the Spanish first took Manila there was a Moro Datu or Sultan there at the time. They might have been more than occasional raiders .Hello Rick. Yes, there were several Moro rajahs ruling Manila and environs then, when the Spaniards came during the mid- to late-1500s.

Islam was not as widespread then in northern Philippines (i.e., Luzon), like it was in the southern Phils. then (i.e., Sulu and Mindanao). And central Phils. (i.e., the Visayas) were the least influenced by Islam at that time.

Just to clarify the terms describing Phil. precolonial form of government --

Datu - the head of a barangay (pronounced buh-rung-GUY), which population consisted from just a few families, to several hundred persons; a barangay is run fairly independently vs. other barangays; thus a barangay is the basic political unit, and all of the Philippines' peoples then were organized in this manner.

Raja - a datu who was designated by his peers as the head of an alliance of several barangays; thus Raja Sulaiman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajah_Sulaiman_III) was one of the three rajas who ruled precolonial greater Manila then which consisted of many barangays.

Sultan - a sultan is the leader of a much larger geographical area, and there would be rajas and datus under the sultan (like in the sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao, respectively).

Now on the Moro raids of old, they were done by southern Philippine Moros for two things -- (a) as an act of retribution against the incursion of Spaniards against their homeland (Sulu/Mindanao), and (b) as a means of boosting their rising local economy via the procurement of more manpower.

There were plenty of good and arable land everywhere. Thus conquest of territory did not make sense. It was the people who were the precious "commodities" -- thus, slave raiding was the sensible political and economic move.

As for the 16th century Luzon Moros, they were not engaged in raiding, as there were no Christians then to get irritated at :)

And perhaps the local population was able to support the Manila economy.

On a related matter, historians also say that the reason Luzon and Visayas fell easily to the colonizers was precisely because of the loose alliance amongst the barangays.

In the case of Sulu and Mindanao however, their higher level of political cohesiveness (via the sultanate) allowed them to resist the colonizers more effectively.

[Rick]

Thanks Miguel for explaining the order of the titles . :)

[Battara]

I wonder about the silat connection to original Moro systems. I will not deny that there may be some relation, but from what I have seen of silat, it seems to go mostly near the ground. From some old photos of the turn of the centyr and a particular Moro practitioner on Cecil Quirino's Crossing the Sulu Seas, Moro martial arts may not be as low to the ground as silat.

Just my limited observations so far.......

[FilAmfighter1]

Guys,
FMA was been impacted by the constant raiders & settlers from many places. Raiding became an form of commerce. Blades were traded for and many types of blades were used. Yes there are local adaptaion and creations as well. It was so bad that English and thier trade ships were plaged by Moro Pirates. If you want read a excellent book that also refferes to the weapons complete with sketches read the Pirate Wind. You can get it from Austrialan, Hong Kong and England book sellers. The English did great job of documenting their enemies of trade. If you get the chance read the book you get really great feel about the southern Philippines in the 1700- 1800s. It was amazing place and times.

[harimauhk]

Guys,
FMA was been impacted by the constant raiders & settlers from many places. Raiding became an form of commerce. Blades were traded for and many types of blades were used. Yes there are local adaptaion and creations as well. It was so bad that English and thier trade ships were plaged by Moro Pirates. If you want read a excellent book that also refferes to the weapons complete with sketches read the Pirate Wind. You can get it from Austrialan, Hong Kong and England book sellers. The English did great job of documenting their enemies of trade. If you get the chance read the book you get really great feel about the southern Philippines in the 1700- 1800s. It was amazing place and times.

Sounds good! I'll see if I can find it here--I live in Hong Kong. :)

[harimauhk]

Just wanted to add some input after spending time with Tausug and Yakan tribesmen in the Southern Philippines--culturally there are strong ties to Malaysia in so many ways. I now see the myriad of connections that influence all cultures throughout the Philippines after having spent so much time here this year.

Both the Tausugs and Yakan have terms for their fighting systems, and like many words in Bahasa Sug and Yakan, they are somewhat similar to words in Malay. The term for their fighting systems is something like silat, but I can't remember what it is now. Silat is NOT always low to the ground. If you look at Seni Gayong from Malaysia, or Minangkabau Sitarlak, both systems are relatively upright. There is a strong possibility Chinese fighting systems did influence the Bangsamoro, however. Chinese kung fu systems have affected Javanese systems. The Chinese, to this day, live among the Tausug and Yakan on Basilan and Sulu, and we have all seen barungs with Chinese characters on them.

I wish I could get a taste of the Tausug fighting systems, but traveling to Jolo or Patikul at this point in time is a really bad idea unless you have ransom money ready at home. I doubt they would even be willing to teach their systems to the Yakan, even though there is relative peace between the tribes now and members of both tribes work and live together in the Abu Sayyaf/MILF/MNLF and even intermarry.