Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

[kai]

Hello,

My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot).

The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge.

Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either...

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!

It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!
Well, I'm not going to answer to myself :rolleyes: but should add that this variety isn't mentioned in Pant, Rawson, nor Stone... :(

None of the many knowledgeable forumites specialising in Indo-Persian blades coming to the rescue? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Kai,

Do you know if the blade has a tang?

True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?

You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?

Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.

Jens

[kai]

Hi Jens, Thanks for your input!

Do you know if the blade has a tang?
No idea. The blade is tightly secured by those 3 rivets. However, I played with the idea to clean up the hilt by electrolytic rust removal and would have to remove the blade for this.


The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?
Wouldn't the ricasso suggest an intact blade? IMVHO it would need some major reforging effort to come up with a new ricasso as well as the shape of the blade...

Possibly a boy's blade? I know it's the usual disingenous ad hoc assumption but the grip is also a bit on the small side.


You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?
Deccan ;)


Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look.
I would appreciate that very much! Take your time though.


The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.
I just defaulted on a parrot since that seems to be mentioned much more often than other birds. I'll have a close look again.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Kai,

You did think I had forgotten you, didn’t you? Well I have not, but so far I have not seen it, maybe I have seen it somewhere else.
It is however a rather unusual blade, so there will not be many of them around, and as we don’t know what it is called, we will have to wait till a picture appears.
I have looked at the hilt again, and I think I will agree with you that it is a parrot.

Jens

[kai]

Hi Jens,

Thanks for the update! Actually, I was about to send the URL of this thread to a friend of mine and thought it wouldn't hurt to bring it back to the top... ;)

I have looked at the hilt again, and I think I will agree with you that it is a parrot.
Yup, I think the colors work best for a parrot. A hawk has somewhat smaller eyes and while I couldn't exclude a falcon, the defining feature of a falcon's beak is missing. Thus, a positive identification doesn't seem to be possible but parrot seems to be most plausible to me, too.

Regards,
Kai

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Kai,

Have a look at the auction catalogue showing Dr. Leo S. Figiel’s collection page 64 no. 2058.

The hilt is not the same, and the blade is not quite the same, but close. Unfortunately both Figiel in his book. and the one who wrote the text to the auction catalogue were ‘very’ discreet when it came to mention from where the weapons came.

Jens

[carlos]

Hello Kai!!
5 years ago i bought this sword in Istambul, the seller told me this sword was from Iran. i think this sword have a similar blade than your.
I´m sorry for my english!!.
regards!!

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Kai,
I could not resist coming in on this as it recalled some discussions we had on a chopping sword with vague similarities last June. I recall that initially I was inclined to presume NW frontier regions as the knuckleguard etc recalled a variant form of the Khyber knife...but later realized the form was distinctly of southern regions of India.
Actually Pant does illustrate certain items that seem to correspond to the gestalt of this sword (photo CLI, a dragonhead brass hilt that also has the upper blade bolster of type seen on Ottoman yataghans; another plate XI; another with parrot hilt on tulwar from Gujerat ). The dragonhead items are from Tanjore which is of course SE India. Elgood notes on p.197 of his magnificent "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that yellow brass hilts frequently are characteristic of southern, SW India, and illustrates a hilt with dragonhead and knuckleguard similar to those in Pant.
The blade seems to be consistant with Deccani sosun pattah according to Pant (p.80, fig.167) although he notes the Deccani examples seldom had knuckleguards. It would seem these recurved blades that resemble Mughal daggers such as khandjar and bichwa came in a larger swordsword version probably best compared to dirks or shortswords for close quarters combat.
I have an example with short blade such as yours and with guardless hilt and the khanjhar hilt form which is essentially ultrastylized 'parrothead'.

I tend to think this hilt is a parrot head also. While not typically described in discussions of decoration and motif, there are certain possibilities as far as reasons for its appearance on hilt motif although these associations may not have application. According to symbolism references ( J.E.Cirlot, "A Dictionary of Symbols" N.Y.1962), the parrot is a messenger symbol and as many birds, symbolic of the soul. In Persian literature, the parrot seeks the water of immortality ("Conference of the Birds" by 13th c. Persian poet Faid Ud-Din Attar). In Hinduism , the parrot is associated with Kama, the god of love, as well as prophecy and rainmaking.

I must admit through all this 'parrot' research, I cannot resist thoughts of Jimmy Buffitt!!!! :)

Seriously though, I am inclined to think this sword is likely to be mid to latter 19th c. India, probably Tamil Nadu regions, possibly Mysore also. It is a most interesting and unusual example , very nice!!

Best regards,
Jim


P.S. Carlos, your also very interesting item has also the Mughal type blade and the hilt with very distinct dot and circle motif that is typical of weaponry from various regions in Afghanistan and Bukhara. The Persian influences of course predominated weapons from these regions.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?

Hi Jim,

Nice to have you back. I too have a south Indian feeling, but I don’t like, that we so far, have been unable to find a similar blade – other than the one from Figiel’s auction, and that is not exactly like the one Kai shows.

Jens

[Andrew]

Hi Jim. :)

[Marc]

Hello, Jim.
Nice to see you. :)


(BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure... :rolleyes: )

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens, Andrew, Marc!
Thanks so much guys!!:)
Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.

Jens,
This blade definitely is a puzzler. It seems an almost serpentine recurved shape that is very much like a shortsword example I have with the same lazy S shape. It recalls also the curvature on those maddening 'Black Sea' yataghans that have caused such a stir over the years (these of course had more dramatic curve, deep belly for slashing and the needle point suggested as armour piercing). The consensus now, thanks to Ariels discovery, shows that these were from Turkish regions and into Armenia. These have distinct Persian characteristics in the blades, and if I may speculate, the same influences prevailed in Mughal regions, so possibly this blade shape may have entered the same way. We know that Mughal suzerainty extended well into the Deccan so such blades may have been found into regions we have considered in the south via these routes.
Basically this blade type seems a sosun pattah form shortsword which of course appeared in subtle variations. Most of these seem relatively recent innovations of 19th century origin.

The blade on my shortsword has the strengthened iron piercing point similar to those seen on many katars, so seems consistant with the northern blades as is the hilt which is the smooth pistol grip type khanjhar hilt.
I often wonder if these mid size weapons were intended specifically for close quarters melee.

All the best,
Jim

[Marc]

Jim, you underestimate me... ;)


Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.
Well... maybe because Juan Eduardo Cirlot was Catalan and a more than noteworthy scholar in his time, because among the many things he wrote there were a few articles on weaponry (from the historical and artistic point of view), because his daughter, Victòria Cirlot wrote an excellent (unpublished, which is a real shame) PhD thesis about arms and armour in Catalonia between the 11th and 14th centuries... :D

He was also somewhat noted for having a nice collection of renaissance European swords...


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/mcgener/CirlotSm.jpg



That's, more or less, "how in the world"... :)

[kai]

Whoa, great revival! Just had to take a short leave from the forum and there we go... :D

Thanks, folks! I'll follow up on your leads and answer the points raised later.

Regards,
Kai

[Emanuel]

Hello,

This just finished on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6618703498&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It bears very strong similarities to the short sword discussed in this thread. It also seems to have a khyber-knife hilt and delicate niello work.

[Rick]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this may not be antique .
Interesting nonetheless . :)

[Andrew]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this may not be antique .
Interesting nonetheless . :)

I agree. :)

[kai]

I missed this one. Thanks for keeping these coming!

Looks like a fantasy piece to me. It does seem very "mint" but could this be an earlier blade specifially made for the western curio market?

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

I missed this one. Thanks for keeping these coming!

Looks like a fantasy piece to me. It does seem very "mint" but could this be an earlier blade specifially made for the western curio market?

Regards,
Kai

Or recently reworked from a plain piece .
My bet is that it is 100% new ; the extreme thickened tip is my clue as it seems consistent with these pieces .

Good night everyone . :)

[Emanuel]

I noticed that about the tip. Lots of the recurved pesh-kabz on ebay these days have the sudden thick tip that doesn't flow with the rest of the blade. Still looks like a lot of work put into it.

[Titus Pullo]

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?




Don't let that short small sword full you, though! The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter. And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon. If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss! ;)

[kai]

Hello Titus,

The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter.
Actually, it's not that heavy - I'm pretty sure it's more build for fast cuts (and stabs) rather than heavy blows (e.g. a Khukuri blade has much more momentum).


And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon.
I certainly wouldn't want to face it, especially with no or smaller blade. However, people have to learn using swords and that's where weapons for teenagers came in handy, especially when there was a possibility that blades might have to used for real.

BTW, I'm not insisting that this is the case with my sword just pointing out that it is a valid possibility.


If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss! ;)
Yeah, but it seems that it evolved from fighting in closed military formations where extra reach can't be fully utilized (or rather was provided by pila). OTOH, the Indian sword size convention does strongly favor longer weapons.

(Note that the draw cut with regular Tulwars already supposes a pretty close quarter engagement - from the western sword play POV, that is. It's still possible that shorter swords like this were specialized back-up weapons for warriors with other primary weapons used at longer ranges. However, there seems to be not much evidence surviving for such a hypothesis AFAIK...)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

A quite similar sword got sold by Czerny's for a total of approx. US$2450 earlier this year:
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?oggetto=60018&asta=57&lang=eng

Note the hilt again displays the parrot motif as well as silver koftgari! Longer with a total length of 76.5 cm. Again no scabbard surviving.

From the pics, I can't make out wether the blade is made of wootz - my piece certainly is (of rather low contrast though).

Any comments/updates by forumites specialising on India?

Any additional pieces surfacing? One more example and we have a rare pattern/type emerging... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[ariel]

Folks,
I have a sneaky suspicion that all of those belong to the same pattern as the ones discussed in the next -literally!- thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429

[Roland_M]

Not an expert but as far as I know Indians often copied good blades from other nations, for example the Kilij and Shamshir. I think, this could be an Indian interpretation of a Yatagan.

Roland

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Folks,
I have a sneaky suspicion that all of those belong to the same pattern as the ones discussed in the next -literally!- thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429


I thought I had been dreaming Ariel;.. Please follow up on what you point out... Surely this is the same family? In my view and as you already point out on the other thread these could fuse as one thread...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note Czernys call it a rare sabre...I sympathize with their inability to find the exact name...It is so similar to the design of Pesh Kabz...and in fact also on some Persian Kard... In particular the throat design...and so similar to the Yatagan... (I note vague similarities to the decorative throat on Pihae Keata but only faintly similar...) Again I urge fusing the two threads noted earlier. :shrug:

[mariusgmioc]

Have no idea what it is, nor where exactly does it come from but if it is wootz, it definitely is antique!

Moreover, Indian blades display probably the widest array of shapes of all blades and I'm not surprised this shape to be one of them as the Indians seem to fancy recurved blades a lot (as seen in Khnajar, Khanjarli, Pesh-kabz, Bichwa, Soussun Pata, etc.).

So wootz and recurved blade, typical Indian guard, clearly point India to me.

Where exactly in India?! Well... that's a completely different story. Good luck with it! ;)

[kronckew]

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities. :)


The weapon you show is clearly the same style...same family as that being discussed... :shrug:

[mariusgmioc]

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin. :shrug:

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian. :shrug:

[Roland_M]

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!


""Indo-Persian culture" refers to those Persian aspects that have been integrated into or absorbed into the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent (hence the prefix "Indo"), and in particular, into North India, and modern-day Pakistan."

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

As I mentioned before, Indians often copied the most successfull patterns from other countries.


Roland

[ariel]

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))


I suggest along with Ariel that these two threads which are clearly the same family ...be joined. I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.
May the two threads be joined together?...

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello,

My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome!

Regards,
Kai


Salams Kai... My apologies since I should have mentioned to you about requesting joining your thread to that of Ariels at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429 ...

Please note that I have requested along with Ariel that these two threads be fused since they are about the same family of swords which appears to be a kind of Indian weapon, hybrid or mixture, not fully researched ...and which together as one thread would make an excellent subject...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi :)

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type!

The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin).

While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Marius,

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin. :shrug:
Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?


But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!
I fully agree and can relate to your pain. ;)

Note that I started this thread 11 years ago and I guess this was a pre-emptive attempt to weasel out in case my attribution would got challenged by specialists... :o

I'd love a mod to change the title to "Indian ..." for better reference and searching, pretty please!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...
None of this hilt type's parts are really unique - it's the really unusual combination which makes it so distinctive. Once you start looking at decorations, it's not surprising to see even more similarities in general style all across the continent and beyond. I don't think it really helps to compare koftgari to integral "tunkou" unless you dig into the details of any motifs to possibly establish any local origin; this would be really helpful though!

Regards,
Kai

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Marius,

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Kai

Hello Kai,

Please just Google images of "bichwa dagger" and I'm sure you'll find some examples very similar to your sword.

Also keep in mind that normal Bichwa si much smaller and designed mainly for reverse grip stabbing, hence the symetrical armatures fixing the blade to the hilt. However, your sword is too big to be used in the reverse grip, and since it has to be used with forward grip and also for slashing, it needs to have the armatures enforced towards the spine of the blade (like the ottoman Yataghans).

But just keep it in mind that this is just a hunch and by no means an irrefutable fact. Yet, it may give us a good direction for further enquiry.

Regards,

Marius

[estcrh]

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

[Roland_M]

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts.


I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

[mariusgmioc]

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

True. But the problem comes from the term being mis-used.

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I certainly understand calling Indo-Persian a Shamshir with an "Assadullah" blade and a Tulwar hilt, or a Pesh-kabz bearing the traits of both Persian and Indian workmanship, but as I said in my original posting, I think the use of the term is abused, for the sake of "political correctness"... or in other words, just to be on the safe side.
:cool:

[Roland_M]

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

:cool:

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.


Have a nice weekend

[mariusgmioc]

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.

Have a nice weekend

Well, we can debate this at length but I think it is not the place at this thread, as here the discussion should remain focused on Kai's sword.

Maybe we can meet sometime this summer and debate it face to face drinking a beer.
;)

Have a nice weekend too!

[Sajen]

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture.

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this. ;) :)

Best regards,
Detlef

[ariel]

I think there is some degree of confusion here: tunkou has nothing to do with S. Indian bladed weapons. It is of a nomadic origin, and was found on Kirghiz sabers dating to VI-VIII centuries. From there it migrated both Eastward to China and Westward/Southward (Mongols, Seljuks) and that's how it reached Europe, Turkey and North India.
It was originally designed to isolate the edge of the blade from a contact with the scabbard and to prevent moisture from entering it. With time, it acquired purely decorative overtones.

Retaining plates on S. Indian katars, patas and khandas were a device aimed at attaching the blade to the handle.

I do not think there is anything in common between the long-bladed shashka-like ( sorry for the term, but you know what I mean) weapons and bichwa, that is a short-bladed dagger deriving from a humble cowhorn with a big hole.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this. ;) :)

Best regards,
Detlef


Hard to argue with this one! :)

Have a nice weekend! :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The simple process of fusing together two threads dealing with an identical form is requested so that the entire process can be correctly focused upon...without duplication and without confusion... They are of the same subject...the same sword family and .... on the same Forum. Bringing them together allows Forum to treat the subject as a single conundrum ...not two.

Therefor logically ...May the two be joined ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps.

Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide.

Regards,
Kai

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim,

When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps.

Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide.

Regards,
Kai

Show me evidence of this...where confusion results from joining two threads dealing with the same basic subject? The two threads focus upon the same sword family/style... It is blindingly obvious that the two should be put together.

[kai]

Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=203002&postcount=26

[kai]

A bronze hilt of similar construction with a sinha (or yali?) pommel. This seems to corroborate a connection with Hindu regions of southern India.

(Thanks to Ibrahiim for originally pulling this off the Ali Antiques website; all pics shown here for comparision modified to show the same orientation.)

[kai]

This sword with a horse head pommel has a different kind of blade.

[kai]

Another zoomorphic pommel. However, the hilt exhibiting some differences from the standard configuration discussed here: a vestigial crossbar at the back of the blade and more floral decorations, especially at the base of the blade. Arguably, it may be questionable whether this is really of the same pattern and origin as the other examples discussed here.

[kai]

And last not least another variant with a more stylized pommel (still close enough to the bird examples shown above).

With the grip and pommel scales made from ivory, this one was also a status piece. Thus, one might argue that all these examples were mid (to high in post #58) status swords from somewhere in southern India; all seem to be well earlier than late 19th century.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I haven't updated this thread for quite a while.

As possible origins within southern India, there have been suggestions to a link to the late Vijayanagar empire and/or possibly local kingdoms developing from it (including more specifically Madurai in today's Tamil Nadu).

There also have been thoughts towards the NW frontier area of a greater "Indian" sphere of influence as well as central Asia (cp. this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429).

More insights and examples more than welcome - this enigma certainly hasn't been fully solved yet!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

And another example possibly related: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26861

The knuckle guard seems to be unique with (now missing) scales attached to it originally. Were these possibly crafted from brass?

Regards,
Kai