Tulwar-hilted kukri information

[Mefidk]

I have recently obtained this tulwar-hilted kukri. I wondered if anyone could tell me something about it? I can see a virtually identical one (except for the centre picture) on page 385 of Islamic Weapons, by A.Tirri, but unfortunately there is no more information there.

I assume this is a sacrificial or commemorative knife, but I have no idea what the significance of the centre temple and figure might be or where it comes from? One the reverse side (no picture yet because it is still hidden below grime) there is a figure riding either a horse or tiger with what looks like the same head as the figure in the temple, but otherwise it is identical to the side pictured.

Thanks
:)

[Atlantia]

The figure standing so casually on one leg is Lord Krishna playing his flute.
I too have seen these Tulwar hilted Kuk's but do not know much about them apart from they all (well the ones I've seen) have similar simple/flat but elaborately chiselled blades.
A very interesting piece.
Oh and welcome to the forums.

Regards
Gene

[ariel]

Welcome to the club!
I think it is more ceremonial/decorative than fighting.
BTW, the ribbon of incised decorations on yours is reminescent in principle of this one:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9683
No?

[Berkley]

These are decorative pieces. It's my understanding from John Powell (from whom I acquired one of them) that they were the original tourist kukris, made for the original tourists - British officers in India who wanted exotic, if not necessarily authentic, souvenirs of their days in service to the Raj. Old tulwar handles were joined to a piece of flat, soft metal resembling an exaggerated kukri blade, decorated with exotic motifs of tigers, elephants, and Hindu deities, to create the ultimate wall-hanger for the family home back in England.
The illustration is from the Francis Bannerman Catalog of 1927, showing how these and other decorated arms could be used to create a striking display - "Prices Quoted On Application".
http://i42.tinypic.com/n3krxx.jpg

[Mefidk]

Thanks folks. I guess this last post pretty well clears this up. I certainly would not trust this blade in a fight against anything bigger than a rabbit, so a decorative item would fit well.

I'll clean up the other side and return it to the purpose it was originally intended for - dcorating a British guy's house wall :)

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done Berkeley!!! Its amazing how much is in those early Bannerman catalogs, and I have always tried to imagine what it would have been like to visit that huge 'castle' of antiques in New York back then.

Hi Medfidk,
While many of the weapons of India were indeed ceremonial or votive pieces, they are still fascinating as icons of the diverse tribal populations, religions and cultures of the subcontinent. Regardless of the actual use of a weapon, it is the symbolism and motif that establish it as an extremely important element of the culture and often religion it represents.
I think one of the best books written describing this aspect of Indian arms is "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood, which truly helps understand the depth of esoterica imbued in these weapons.

The tulwar style hilt form on this weapon is of a style produced in Rajasthan regions in the 19th century. It seems that these hybrid type weapons which incorporate often both kukri and kora style blades are typically from regions in Uttar Pradesh and Bengal, and incorporate these Nepali forms with the tulwar hilts. From what I have understood, these are temple weapons used in sacrifices of doves, but I am not familiar with more detail on that ceremonial use. Naturally I would agree basically with what John Powell has noted on the familiar 'tourist' designator, but I have seen tulwar hilted koras with similar decoration that have been in use, and around for a very long time.

Whatever the case, it is a very attractive weapon, and though not a fighting weapon, an extremely important piece of Indian religious culture.

All best regards,
]Jim

[sirupate]

I find it hard to believe that British Officers would have had these made, generally British Officers brought back the real thing, it doesn't seem correct to me IMHO. To me its almost like a bazar piece, that made it into export for the west.

The tulwar style hilt form on this weapon is of a style produced in Rajasthan regions in the 19th century. It seems that these hybrid type weapons which incorporate often both kukri and kora style blades are typically from regions in Uttar Pradesh and Bengal, and incorporate these Nepali forms with the tulwar hilts. From what I have understood, these are temple weapons used in sacrifices of doves, but I am not familiar with more detail on that ceremonial use. Naturally I would agree basically with what John Powell has noted on the familiar 'tourist' designator, but I have seen tulwar hilted koras with similar decoration that have been in use, and around for a very long time.

Sorry Jim, are you saying that kukri with with Tulwar style hilts generally came from Uttar Pradesh and Bengal? and originated in the 19th century?

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

I find it hard to believe that British Officers would have had these made, generally British Officers brought back the real thing, it doesn't seem correct to me IMHO. To me its almost like a bazar piece, that made it into export for the west.



Sorry Jim, are you saying that kukri with with Tulwar style hilts generally came from Uttar Pradesh and Bengal? and originated in the 19th century?

Cheers Simon

Hi Simon,
Thank you for the note. What I was observing is that in previous discussions (its been some time), the examples I have seen of these seemed to have come from regions contiguous with the lower borders of Nepal, that is Bengal and East Indian areas. As with most collected Indian weapons, the 19th century denominator is most common as during the height of the British Raj was when most of these were acquired. Without actual handling of the weapon being discussed, it is hard to determine the age and other detail as these traditional forms remained in use for so long.

The origins of the tulwar hilt, the kukri blade and kora form are topics that have remained inconclusive as far as when and where. I imagine that the combining of the forms into hybrid weapons would have probably been in the 19th century as colonization and geopolitical activity would have actively promoted such diffusion.

Interesting topics though.....need to find my notes !!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks for your reply, Tulwar hilted kukri were certainley in use in Nepal before the Anglo Nepali war of 1814-1816, captured versions in 1806 came from Palpa in the Palpa war Nepal, pic below;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/PALPA.jpg
So I would say they were almost certainley in use in the 18th century in Nepal as well.
Tulwar had long been in use in Nepal before 18th century, so I would think it was more than likely that it was a natural Nepalese development, and these styles were quite common in Nepalese households at one time;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Rana_kukri_028.jpg
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Rana_kukri_038.jpg

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Simon,
Now thats what I'm talkin' about! Excellent information and thank you for you great photos. Its been quite a while since we've had any discussions on these interesting hybrids, so Im really glad to see this thread, and especially glad to review the topic. It seems I have often heard of the incredible diversity of weaponry in Nepal, and friends I have known who visited there noted the longstanding presence of many Indian weapons, including the tulwar as you have observed.
Nice call, and the supported information very much appreciated...now when I find those notes I can get them updated :)

All the very best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Glad to be of help Jim, last time I was in Nepal, I was able to get interviews with some of Nepal's top historians whilst doing re-search for the book, I'm co-writing with Captain Indra Gurung, I was a very lucky man :)

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks for your reply, Tulwar hilted kukri were certainley in use in Nepal before the Anglo Nepali war of 1814-1816, captured versions in 1806 came from Palpa in the Palpa war Nepal, pic below;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/PALPA.jpg
So I would say they were almost certainley in use in the 18th century in Nepal as well.
Tulwar had long been in use in Nepal before 18th century, so I would think it was more than likely that it was a natural Nepalese development, and these styles were quite common in Nepalese households at one time;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Rana_kukri_028.jpg
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Rana_kukri_038.jpg

Cheers Simon

Hi all,

Not my field of collecting but aren't all but the bottom image presented above Kora hilt Kukri not Tulwar? The bottom one is of Tulwar form but to my eyes it looks wrong, it is also expressed to me by a learned kukri collector that this one presents itself as more of a "put together" as the langet/cross guard is not in the correct place one would expect it to be on a piece made with care. I have seen another tulwar hilted kukri where the cross guard is central rather than offset as this one is, perhaps another can supply images of the way it should look, also please look at the original image in the first posting.

[sirupate]

From a Western definition point of view you are quite correct, however in Nepal they don't quite have those defintions on handle types and weapons as a whole, and that's pretty much the mind set I now have when talking about Nepalese weaponry.

However regarding Kora, in Nepal they are not called that, they are called Khuda, so perhaps it should be khuda style handle when refering to Nepalese weapons? If one wants to be definitave in a Western collector type way?

With the Bottom kukri, there were two main ways of attaching khuda/kora/tulwar style hilts for the not so rich, the way you see in the picture or to have them melted on, is the only way I can descibe it, as per examples in other museums outside of the National Museum in Nepal, which has the very best of the best kukri and swords left in Nepal.

Most Nepalese were not rich enough to have them done to the standard of high caste Rana', Shah's, Thapa's etc. and certainley throughout Nepalese history, kukri have been re-handled as and when necessary, with whatever was available, or desired at that time, in the cheapest possible way!

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Good observation Gav, I hadnt noticed that langet way off!!!

More outstanding information Simon, and its really great to have some insight and informative input on these weapons. We have really missed the depth and esoterica that we used to get from John Powell, who steadily researched on these weapons with incredible tenacity. We seem to have lost touch with him several years ago, and I hope he is well wherever he is now.
I'm really interested to hear more about the book you are co-authoring, and look forward to new published material on these topics.

Excellent note on the local term used for the kukri, and this subject of terminology and semantics has come up often around here. It seems that not only are ethnographic weapons often called by terms that are distinct only in western collectors parlance, but terms locally can vary widely by region and language variation of course. Certain weapons in Indonesian regions, I have been told ,can almost be called by different terms almost village to village.

Then we have changes in terms from earlier times as dialects develop, the use of improper terms in contemporary narratives, transliteration of these earlier records, colloquial and metaphorical or poetical descriptions etc etc.

The detective work in linguistics is but one aspect that makes all of this so fascinating.

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Although, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen are from indian provenance. Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal, I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons. It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri. I would like to read more opinions on this point. Mutual influences are evident, and tulwar handled khukris seems more natural development for an indian than for a nepalese. Besides, the hilts are usually the part of the sword which is "adapted" by the late owners to their cultural preferences. I also find relevant the comment from Freebooter.
Regards

[sirupate]

Hello Gonzalo,

Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal Actualy High caste Indians fled from the Moghul invasion, and ended up in Nepal, and these should not be confused with the original Khas who were Lamaistic Buddhists, before the Brahman got hold of them.

It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri. As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda, the Gurkhas were never issued khuda, unless your are referring to the Gorkhas from Gorkha? Your statement happily neglets the fact that the kukri (khukuri) is the National weapon of Nepal, not the khuda. Also the view that khuda was the real authentic weapon of the Nepalese, is certainley not the view point held in Nepal!!

I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Cheers Simon

[Gavin Nugent]

Good observation Gav, I hadnt noticed that langet way off!!!

Hi Jim,

I cannot claim full credit for observation, I had noticed it and thought it odd when initially reading this posting but through conversations with another collector about this thread, it reinforced my views.


This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Hi Simon,

Could you please elaborate on this history of the possible kukri origins and that of the Kora if it is also from this point in time?
I would also like to know more on the large Kora hilted kukri's you presented originally and their origins as they are indeed Kora hilted not tulwar hilted.


Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Although, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen are from indian provenance. Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal, I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons. It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri. I would like to read more opinions on this point. Mutual influences are evident, and tulwar handled khukris seems more natural development for an indian than for a nepalese. Besides, the hilts are usually the part of the sword which is "adapted" by the late owners to their cultural preferences. I also find relevant the comment from Freebooter.
Regards


Excellent observations Gonzalo!!! I am constantly amazed by the scope and diversity of your interests and knowledge on so many fields of weapons.
I know that it is great to have discussions like this where I can learn more on weapons where I seem to have had rather complacent understanding that is clearly not as well founded as I thought.

Your comments, and the reinforcing qualifications noted by Simon are certainly putting these Nepalese weapons in perspective. I have always been under the impression that the kukri probably derived indirectly from the ancient kopis of the Greeks via a number of early weapons in India. I think these are reflected in varying degree in Indian iconography such as found in Ajanta.

Simon, I am really with Gav and Gonzalo on learning more about the kora and the kukri and thier origins and hope you can share more here of your research as possible, as I know it is part of work in progress. I think that the term 'khuda' easily was transliterated into 'kora' to the western ear because of the way it is likely pronounced. Its amazing how an almost undetectable twist in the tongue or tonal inflection can change entire words and meanings in so many cases.

I would like to know about the shape of the kora blade tip and its dual concave curves, and what it might represent.
Also, I think you note an important point....the 'Gurkhas' were military units who served with British forces with great valor, while the Gorkhas were of course distinct tribes in regions of Nepal, many of whom served in these units. In research some time ago, it seems that Brian Farwell (author of "The Gurkhas") mentioned that there were instances of these tough warriors using 'khuda' despite the kukri being the weapon of standard use and issue.

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

In my expierience of the Nepal national museam, collecters & dealers there, almost evry one recognises the differance between a khuda or kora handle & those of a tulwar.

I have numerous photos on an old hard drive i can use to illustrate that tulwar & kora {or khuda.} have had different handles from each other for centuries in Nepal. Ill dig them out in a week or two. ;)

The kukri & the Kora are both regarded as Nepali national weapons in Nepal.

The kukri that started this thread was often made for tourists in 1920s & 30s, most tourists in India at that time were members of British Indian army or British Indian civil service.

Many soldiers , civil servants, entrenapurs & indeed Officers brought back tourist pieces of many types for wall decoration even up to & after ww2.

Spiral

[Gonzalo G]

Hello Gonzalo,

Actualy High caste Indians fled from the Moghul invasion, and ended up in Nepal, and these should not be confused with the original Khas who were Lamaistic Buddhists, before the Brahman got hold of them.

As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda, the Gurkhas were never issued khuda, unless your are referring to the Gorkhas from Gorkha? Your statement happily neglets the fact that the kukri (khukuri) is the National weapon of Nepal, not the khuda. Also the view that khuda was the real authentic weapon of the Nepalese, is certainley not the view point held in Nepal!!

This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Cheers Simon

I am referring to the kora from the gorkhas (I missed a letter, big mistake). Still, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen (and I don´t pretend to spell the word 'khuri' in the most correct way, since it seems there are several) are indian. Maybe coincidence.

I am not interested in religious matters, but escentially in pointing the indian presence and the indian influences, which is a fact you can´t deny. Certainly, the tulwar handled khukris are NOT a pure expression of the Nepal culture, but the result of mutual influences. The rest is irrelevant to this matter. I do not discuss if 'kora' is, or is not, the most correct name (here and there, many terms are used only by occidental collectors, and to change this use would be an endless work), but I think we are not talking about names, but cultural influences and weapon origins. Tulwar handled khukris are, or the result of nepali influence over indian population, or the influence of the indian culture over the nepali weapons, isn't it?

I don't neglect anything, but a letter. As I understand,the khurki has an unknown lineage, and its origins are not clear to this moment, no matter it is the 'national weapon of Nepal'. There is a country in Africa which has an AK/47 in its flag, and it is a russian weapon. I mean, there is an historic reason for choosing the khukri as national weapon, but the original weapon the gorkhas carried at the beginning of the nepali state was the kora, and not the khukri, which is a latter weapon. There is not another more respresentative gorkha weapon in the conquest of this territory, and more original in relation with this country. Maybe for this reason the tulwar handled koras are more scarce, if there is any (I personally never saw one), no matter all the indian influences.

Probably the khukri has more extensive use among all the ethnic groups from Nepal, and in this measure it is more representative of this political unity, but the point is irrelevant to my statements: that the kora is more representative from the gorkha, and that the khukri has an uncertain lineage, and probably reflects some indian influences. It is not a definitive statement, it is only a point which dreserves some discussion, in my opinion, as cultural influences have to be taken on account. For above all the diversity of the ethnic groups existing in actual Nepal since long time ago, no one seems to have developed the khukri before the arrival of the indians. Or is it?

[Gonzalo G]

Your comments, and the reinforcing qualifications noted by Simon are certainly putting these Nepalese weapons in perspective. I have always been under the impression that the kukri probably derived indirectly from the ancient kopis of the Greeks via a number of early weapons in India. I think these are reflected in varying degree in Indian iconography such as found in Ajanta.

Jim, I am very interested in the khukris. My first post here was related to one of my own. There is a book from Fernando Quesada Sanz, La Falcata, Arma y Símbolo, in which an analysis is made about the use of the term 'kopis' in the ancient sources. It demostrates that the use of this term is ambiguos and many times is referred to a different kind of weapons. Anyway, the use of the kopis seems not to be much extended in the greek armies, and there is but a few icinographic representations from this period. In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral. Other thing is the hellenistic presence in northern part of India, in Central Asia, but the influence shuould be seen otherwise in the indian vicinity of this area. Ajanta is far from there, and I never saw this representation to judge the similarities, have you? Have any in this forum? Can we see it to judge? All we have in this respect, is the statement of a 19th Century author pretending to establish the origin of this weapon on an european one. Based only in the use of a down curved blade, which maybe (and I don't make a definitive statement, because it cannot be done to this moment) had a more older african use, if not origin. I seriouly doubt something as simple as a down curved blade has to have only one origin, as it was a unique and oustanding invention.

As with the rest of the european 'influences' we talked about in the past, we need more clear evidences to state a probable cause (not only possible, but probable) of their existence, and sometimes, in the absence of material proof, we have to use the historical context of the weapons studied and dig deep in the cultures. It is far more academic (and interesting) than ID some known type of weapon and put it in a timeframe. I don't deny the existence of this influences, but I think we have to restraint fantasy and speculation to frame this discussions in the strict facts of history and archaeology, if we pretend to be serious students of this kind of weapons. And I know you like the historical analysis.

I only have seen the sculptoric images of down curved swords in the book from J. Paul, Traditional Weapons of India. They come from South India, and they do not look in anyway reminiscent of a kopis, not even in the form of the down curved blade, but in the fact that is down curved. It seems that down curved blades are originally often related to agricultural work and they could be independently developed in several places. And, if we accept the aryan theory, we can also speculate if this kind of weapon or tool was originally carried by this group, which supposedly conquered part of India.

I expect not to be wandering (too much), and I apology in advance for my mistakes in spelling.

My best regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Gav,

I cannot claim full credit for observation, I had noticed it and thought it odd when initially reading this posting but through conversations with another collector about this thread, it reinforced my views.
Is this collector not part of this Forum?

Could you please elaborate on this history of the possible kukri origins and that of the Kora if it is also from this point in time?
We are currentley working on the origins of the kukri, so no real info yet, as for the khuda its not something I have been overly concerned with, but my interest has ben aroused with this thread.

Hello Jim,

'khuda' easily was transliterated into 'kora'
I doubt it, I have been in contact with three top Nepalese historians since this thread started, and one of them has come back with the spelling 'khunda' as the correct spelling, and yet in the National museum its spelt as khuda!

I would like to know about the shape of the kora blade tip and its dual concave curves, and what it might represent.
According to two of the historians, no religious signifigance at all to the khunda, its shape simply owes itself to its effective cutting power.

Brian Farwell (author of "The Gurkhas") mentioned that there were instances of these tough warriors using 'khuda' despite the kukri being the weapon of standard use and issue.
I believe in Byron Farwell's book he only refers the Khunda when used in the Dashian festival 'The man selected to do the deed was armed with a razor-sharp, outsized kukri called a khanra' which seems to be an almost a phonetic spelling.
Certainley in the old days Gorkha troops used the khunda, but in referance to Gurkhas using it in the early days before regulation, I asked a Gurkha historian who said that he had not heard of it, but that it might have happened, this was also the thoughts of another historian as well.

Hello Jonathan,

In my expierience of the Nepal national museam, collecters
You didn't speak to any collectors in Nepal

The kukri & the Kora are both regarded as Nepali national weapons in Nepal The khunda is certainley recognised as a weapon that was used a lot in olden times, but as a National weapon per say, I don't think so, however I have asked about this and I will pass on the views of the Historians when I recieve their replies. Its certainley not the National weapon of Nepal, the kukri is.

Many soldiers , civil servants, entrenapurs & indeed Officers brought back tourist pieces of many types for wall decoration even up to & after ww2. That is certainley not my experience of Officers and Soldiers that fought in wars, the ones I know and have spoken only had the real thing, for example David Harland (died a month ago) a friend of my fathers, who was with the Gurkhas as a Captain in WWII, only brought back the Japanese sword he had surrendered to him, my Uncle Charlie from WWI had a dagger that he took of a dead German that he had killed etc. However entrepreneurs might be a whole different thing!

Hello Gonzalo'

For above all the diversity of the ethnic groups existing in actual Nepal since long time ago, no one seems to have developed the khukri before the arrival of the indians. Or is it? Might well be

In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral. It is certainley not uncommon that armies copy and then produce weapons from other armies, like the AK47 on the flag!

Tulwar handled khukris are, or the result of nepali influence over indian population, or the influence of the indian culture over the nepali weapons, isn't it? Other cultures could be just as important

but the original weapon the gorkhas carried at the beginning of the nepali state was the kora, and not the khukri, which is a latter weapon Says who?

You will notice the absolute lack of khunda in these historical paintings from a Nepalese museum
This is a scene from a famous battle in the unification of Nepal
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Gorkha_War1.jpg
And this is a scene from the Anglo Nepali war;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/Anglo.jpg
So perhaps some western collectors are more hung up on the khunda than the Nepalese?
But as mentioned before I am in contact with three top Nepalese historians, and whatever their view is I will pass it on.

Cheers Simon

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Simon,

Since this thread started, an update from Khuda to Khunda has occured. This is very good to know, but also emphasises the strong point, that to avoid confusion, there is nothing wrong with the well reccognised term Kora being used just to ensure we are all on the same page.

When the research is complete, and the definite name and spelling is ensured, then change could be introduced......(Just like Bodecia and Boudicca...but don't quote me on the spelling!!)

Re the Kora /Khunda, It appears Rawson and J.Paul as well as Eggerton, believed this to be the earlier weapon of Nepal,, and lost favour to the khukri in more modern times (18th Century?) I was just reading about this somewhere, and must re-find it!

I am afraid I have nothing to add from my own 'wisdom'...only what has been written by others, either correctly or incorrectly!

BTW, May I ask when the above illustration was made?
It has occured to me how often historical paintings often show representations of contemporay fashion and armament.....(Like clothing and weaponry of the middle-ages depicted on a fair few paintings of Biblical scenes.) Not saying this is the case here, but the thought came to mind.

Thanks Simon,

All the best,

Richard.

[sirupate]

I understand the point your making Richard, except that the khuda and khunda spellings are Nepalese rather than an English interpretation, and therefore more acurate than kora.
Certainley in old folk tales the kukri was in use well before the 18th century both as a weapon and as a tool, and in the old armies of Nepal the kukri was very much in use in battles as shown in the pictures.
Of course the gentleman you refer to were pioneers and have undoubtedly had a major influence on the way some collectors look at Nepalese weaponry, but where they right?
I think the big difference here is, that I am speaking to Nepalese Scholars/Historians on the subject, two of them can trace their lineage right back to Prithvi times, and tell of their families part in those times!

[Pukka Bundook]

You make a very good point Simon, re. "were they, (The early European scholars) Right?"

An "outsider" may be as accurate in his works as a native, but he also may not be!
I'm from Yorkshire, and if a Nepalese chap was writing about "my" history, I would treat it with suspicion, ..at least 'till I'd read it!

I do wish I could remember what I was reading recently!
It was about the kukri, Ram dao and Kora. and mentioned those with inscriptions actually being written in an Indian language (Forget what)

Seems the Ram dao inscriptions tied them firmly to Bengal, as though they were made and used there, but subsequently 'died out' in that area, and were only left in Hindu Nepal.
Where did I read that seeing Nepal, is seeing India as it was?

Must be quiet now. At least until I find my information!

Cheers,

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

I must say this has proven to be a most challenging thread! In all honesty I have only had cursory knowledge of both the kukri and the kora, and obviously my comments reflect the distance from the earlier research and study I did concerning them. As I noted earlier, and along with Richard, I have been trying to retrace notes and references....especially faced with the apparantly very focused work that Simon is using to carefully annotate the observations in these discussions.

After several hours I think I have made some progress, so will try to express my perspective concerning the comments I have made on the kukri and the kora in a manner that will hopefully be adequately acceptable, considering the well qualified company present in this discussion.

Some very good points are raised with the long standing questions on the veracity of the references that have long stood in place concerning the history of these weapons. Obviously, continued research (thankfully) will revise our understanding with new and presumably well supported evidence on the history of these and many weapon forms.

The comments I made earlier were based on apparantly Rawson ("The Indian Sword", N.Y. 1968), Egerton, discussions and material from John Powell, and private communications with the late Byron Farwell.....most of which took place over nine or so years ago.
Simon, apparantly that was where I must have gotten the thoughts on the use of the kora ( I agree with Richard, for the sake of this discussion it is better to hold to the generally held term) by the Gurkhas. It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).
Rawson again notes on p.53, "...the kora is probably the old sword of the Gurkhas and it may well be that thier phenomenal military success was largely due to their possession of such a terribly effective weapon".

Gonzalo, excellently stated thoughts on the proper approach to the study of these weapons. From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. He notes on p.52, that "...despite the fact that in modern times the kukri has come to be regarded as the national weapon of the Gurkhas, its form shows that it is a weapon of purely Indian descent, related to the kopis bladed sword of Ajanta, and the modern Rajput sosun pattah".

Further, "...the direct ancestor of the kukri was no doubt the sword with a kopis blade, but in the blades of certain kukris it is clear that the conception of the forward angled blade, not the pure kopis, underlies the form".

As you have noted, it is not so much the kopis, but the forward curved or forward angled blade, which holds very plausible influence. It is indeed unclear on the use of the 'kopis' by the Greeks, who incorporated many ethnic groups among thier forces and the forward angled blades seem more probably from the khopesh of Egypt, the sappara of Mesopotamia, the machaira of Iberia and the Celtibereans. The application of the term, as we have seen, certainly must have had a degree of misperception, between machaira and kopis in particular. It seems that the Greeks, with the exception of mounted forces, preferred the straight xiphos sword over the kopis or curved blade forms.
It seems this terminology was addressed by the author you noted, Fernando Quesada Sanz, in "Machaira, Kopis, Falcata" in 'Homenaje a Francisco Torrent' , Madrid, 1994, p.75-94.


Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor. In this it is noted that Alexanders cavalry carried the forward curved machaira, which is not of Greek origin, but probably Illyrian in form dating to 6th c.BC or possibly related to the Celtiberian falcata.

I feel like I have regained at least some perspective on the kukri and the kora with tonights revisit to old sources, and look forward to the much expected revisions which will I am sure render the material I have noted more up to date.

With all best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Pukka, Jim, I take your responses as mine. I agree with your comments.

But I also would like to have more information about this older presence of the khukri, and to have an aproximate date of the first mentions about it in the nepali literature. Is there a date of this writtings-stories-traditions? Is it an oral or a writting tradition, in the first place? This point would add interesting information, if there is any valid and accessible source on this subject. I mean, some references we can see or check personally.

Jim, I think the problem is to demonstrate the material possibility those influences could arrive from the transitory passing of Alexander´s troops in the northwest India, as far as to Ajanta or to south India. I do not doubt there are such representations there, but it seems nobody who I have some contact with of some kind, knows of this representations but from the same literary references. And I would like to see this representations and check the possible relationship among them (the kopis and the indian down curved weapons). Your mention of the mesopotamic weapon is a good point.
Regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).
The only problem with that is that there is no mention of the word kora! pg.38 in Egerton's book says 'using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect'! British military accounts only refer to the use of the kukri, especialy with regard to the much written about battle of Kalunga. Also the kukri has historically been referred to as sword by many people as long as I can rememeber. An example of that is in the 1992 published book 'Quartered Safe Out Here' by the late George MacDonald Fraser describes them in this way 'the other essential sidearm was the kukri, the curved short sword of the Gurkha', sound similar? Keeping in mind IA issue kukri of WWII were generaly a lot shorter than the fighting kukri of old.
Also from 'The travels of India and Nepal' by Rev. Wood 1896 he talks about the kukri but no mention of the khunda being used against our troops!

'heavy semi-circular ended swords' could esily be these;
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/khukuri3.jpg
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/khukuri2.jpg
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/khukuri1.jpg
http://torabladesforum.co.uk/uploads/4/khukuri.jpg

Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor A prominent Nepalese historian has discounted the articule

From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. I very much doubt it, if they were one would have thought that the early fighting kukri of Nepal would have had Rajput style handles? They don't.

Hello Gonzalo,

This currentley being re-searched, and of course I have to leave some info for the book!

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the responses Gonzalo and Simon.

Gonzalo, you note very good courses for research in this, and my knowledge of the routes and history of Alexanders incursions into northern India, Bactria and Central Asia are far from adequate to respond. Most of the representations of these early Indian weapons are iconographical and seen in friezes in a number of temples and architecture in Ajanta, as mentioned, as well as Barabudur, Khiching and on the Begur stone. Of these, the only ones I can claim any familiarity with are Ajanta and Barabadur, and illustrations of the sculptured illustrations are seen in numerous references of Indian art.

As has been mentioned, the accuracy of artistic representations must be in some degree suspect, as it is known in many instances that traditional weapons from periods often out of context sometimes are emplaced. It does seem however, that these architectural and static references, which can usually be fairly accurately dated by scholars, often also seem to carry accurate contemporary representation.

The illustrations in Rawson showing profiles in drawing of the weapons shown in these various iconographic sources are used in a number of later references including Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour") and it seems various other articles and references. Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" shows good illustrations of a number of the architectural sculpture's.

As with most ancient and very early weaponry, it is unusual for find surviving examples of the actual weapons, while the iconography of course, remains in the remnants of these structures, and often quite intact.

Going to the subject of terminology and descriptions of weapons and thier forms in contemporary sources, it seems that reliance on these resources in the study of them is probably the most confounding of all. Since the problem of semantics, transliteration and often licentious narrative is so often prevalent with these sources, it is very difficult to rely on them to significant degree. It seems that often, contemporary accounts can sometimes be clouded by emotional or heightened perception, and when recounted to subsequent writers, even becoming more distorted or embellished .
The consequence of this is probably of magnitude for a Ph.D study, but for note here only to recognize the problem in relying too much on such material, and to maintain cautious approach in its application.

With the earliest kukris, it is suggested that this style weapon was brought into Nepal by Rajputs, but that if this was the case, the earliest ones would have had Rajput style handles. Since these incursions were of medieval period, and the earliest known kukri example is believed that of 17th century owned by the King of Gorkha, how can we know what type of weapons were used by the medieval Rajputs? We do know of the khanda, which still has representation in Nepal, and is known from the weapons seen in iconography from the south in India, but the kukri remains unclear.

It seems that in trying to study and understand ethnographic weapons, especially in trying to find chronological and geographic trends in thier development is plagued by the same problems in the majority of cases.
The development of the sabre, the origins of the kastane, the flyssa, the kaskara and takouba, the yataghan, the katar, the tulwar, the kampilan etc etc etc. all are matters of ongoing and relatively unresolved discussion. There is profound speculation and often wonderfully plausible and compelling evidence presented throughout weapons literature, but truly, all we can do is to continue the research and responsibly collect and cull through the material to gather the most applicable data.

This is what I see with the observations and material discussed here, and I look forward to the book Simon is working on. It seems that whoever dares to publish material on ay depth on any weapon form will face the scrutiny inevitable in the academic community, so I wish him well. I think than any true scholar however, welcomes supported rebuttal or criticism that will advance the knowledge on the subject. Hopefully that will be the case, rather than arbitrary discounting of work based on subjective or biased opinion rather than supported argument.


All best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Whilst not in any position to contribute to the historical/academic discussion I would like to point out that the quotation used from Egerton page 38, assuming that it has been quoted verbatim, that ' using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect' does not immediately strike me as a reference to what I perceive as a Kukri, large or otherwise. If this was a reference to a Kukri I would think that the author would have said ' heavy semi-circular swords'. The addition of the word 'ended' in this context would certainly make me envisage the sword type that I know of as a Kora , see attached photo. I would doubt very much that he, Egerton, would have used the word 'ended' for any literary effect and that he meant exactly what he said i.e. the end of the sword was semi-circular. A Kukri has many qualities but I have yet to see one with a semi-circular end. I, of course, stand to be corrected on any or all of the aforementioned.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. My apologies Simon but 'curved short sword' and ' heavy semi-circular ended sword' do not "sound similar".

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
Very well specified observation, and nicely explained. I couldnt agree more, and semi circular 'ended' does not seem to correspond to the basic shape of the kukri.
In one of my earlier posts I was trying to discover what the significance of the angled and fishtail style tip at the end of the kora might have been. I can understand the widened and heavier end lending to the force of the cut, much in the way of the yelman, however, since the end or tip of the blade has no practical purpose, why the dual concave curves? It would seem that the purpose could only be symbolic as the tip of the sword is technically not used.
Could semi-circular end refer to the curved shape (s) at the end (tip) of the sword? Could earlier koras have had a single curve rebating the end of the widened tip?
The kukri blade has always appeared to me essentially a leaf shape, and I agree, the term semi circular I suppose might be the overall line of the weapon from pommel to to tip.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I'd point out one wee little detail that we've all been forgetting. Alexander's army wasn't the only way the khukri could have gotten to Nepal.

See, I was thinking about two disconnected facts. One is that the kopis is essentially the falcata, a Iberian Spanish design. In fact, there's a bunch of badly defined, forward curving, one and two-handed weapons from Iron Age Europe (falx, falcata, sica, rhomphaeia, etc). Some of these undoubtedly looked like the kopis, some did not.

Then there are those mummies they found in the Tarim Basin of the Xinjiang desert. Those mummies date from 1300 BCE, or Bronze Age.

No one's sure who they were. Aryans?

The one thing that is certain, there were people moving back and forth on the predecessors of the Silk Road from at least 1300 BCE, so that gives us roughly 2000 years to transfer the kopis design to Nepal, assuming that the Nepalese didn't invent it independently, or get the idea from a Turkish yataghan somewhere along the line.

That's a lot of time to transfer an idea, I think.

F

[fearn]

Hi All,

Separate thought, separate post. Assuming the "kora" was the original national weapon of Nepal, and assuming it was replaced by the Khukri, I can offer a couple of reasons why this would happen, both of which I've learned from Himalayan Imports.

One is cost. HI uses traditional kamis, and they've occasionally made HI-style koras for the collectors. The ones they've made were two to three times the cost of a good HI khukuri.

Then there's utilitiy. I like my HI khuks as work knives. I've never had to fight with one. A "kora" looks like a nice blade for chopping heads, but so far as I can tell, it's not too good for chopping wood or peeling potatoes. And it's more expensive.

I think I can figure out why everyone has a khukuri.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

I'd point out one wee little detail that we've all been forgetting. Alexander's army wasn't the only way the khukri could have gotten to Nepal.

See, I was thinking about two disconnected facts. One is that the kopis is essentially the falcata, a Iberian Spanish design. In fact, there's a bunch of badly defined, forward curving, one and two-handed weapons from Iron Age Europe (falx, falcata, sica, rhomphaeia, etc). Some of these undoubtedly looked like the kopis, some did not.

Then there are those mummies they found in the Tarim Basin of the Xinjiang desert. Those mummies date from 1300 BCE, or Bronze Age.

No one's sure who they were. Aryans?

The one thing that is certain, there were people moving back and forth on the predecessors of the Silk Road from at least 1300 BCE, so that gives us roughly 2000 years to transfer the kopis design to Nepal, assuming that the Nepalese didn't invent it independently, or get the idea from a Turkish yataghan somewhere along the line.

That's a lot of time to transfer an idea, I think.

F



Excellent Fearn, and very pertinant perspective. I agree that the kopis mystery is certainly a cause for considerable confusion in trying to determine these weapon forms origins. While it seems that it is well recognized that these various forward curved weapons from numerous cultures ...and as noted well beyond the Greek kopis, preceded the weapons seen in the Indian iconography.
The Silk Road is a very good point, and "The Mummies of Urumchi" is a great book on these mysterious Caucasian mummies found in the Tarim. I think trying to determine the direction of cultural diffusion is pretty confusing, especially from my admittedly limited understanding of archaeological methods. Still the presence of that 'traffic' which certainly carried important elements over wide range, certainly may have accounted for the arrival of such edged weapon forms in the regions discussed. I have often regarded a number of possibilities for Indian weapon forms coming from Bronze Age China, which certainly must have followed these routes.

Good points on the kukri superceding the kora also. The kukri does seem a far more effective and universally used weapon.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Hi,
Whilst not in any position to contribute to the historical/academic discussion I would like to point out that the quotation used from Egerton page 38, assuming that it has been quoted verbatim, that ' using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect' does not immediately strike me as a reference to what I perceive as a Kukri, large or otherwise. If this was a reference to a Kukri I would think that the author would have said ' heavy semi-circular swords'. The addition of the word 'ended' in this context would certainly make me envisage the sword type that I know of as a Kora , see attached photo. I would doubt very much that he, Egerton, would have used the word 'ended' for any literary effect and that he meant exactly what he said i.e. the end of the sword was semi-circular. A Kukri has many qualities but I have yet to see one with a semi-circular end. I, of course, stand to be corrected on any or all of the aforementioned.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. My apologies Simon but 'curved short sword' and ' heavy semi-circular ended sword' do not "sound similar".

Hi Norman, thank you for the photo! I think this is the first tulwar handled kora I have seen! I agree with your comments. Also, the kora blade has a curved design clearly very different from the khukri. Not as if the khukri were a smaller version of the kora, with some changes, but another idea of design on the whole body. I personally believe the khukris could be influenced in the blade design by indian weapons, but not beign originally an indian weapon in itself.

I wonder which nepali historian discounted the article, and in which basis and arguments, and where is the source to read the argumentation. I also wouldn´t work on the assumption of the down curved blades as introduced to Nepal or India. I would begin to search if they were introduced there, or if they were a local invention. The fact that down curved blades from other places are better known or maybe older, does not mean necessarily that the design has only one origin. According with Quesada Sanz, the falcata is a weapon which has its origins in the mediterranean basin, and is not a completely original iberic development. He presents his arguments based on archaeological evidence on the book aforementioned.
Regards

Gonzalo

Regards

Gonzalo

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

You're right, we can't prove the khukuri is not an independent invention on the Indian subcontinent, somewhere, in the last thousand years or so. That's quite possible.

Reminds me of some TV show I was watching that claimed that the crossbow was a chinese invention (sort of like gunpowder, but older) that traveled on the silk road to Europe. The point that Jared Diamond and others like to make is that very little in Eurasia was independently invented, be it writing, alphabets, logograms, paper, gunpowder, domesticated animals or certain forms of government, simply because there was so much trade from Europe and North Africa all the way to China, starting apparently around 1000 BCE. The amounts and routes certainly varied over time, but things and ideas traveled.

That said, I'd suggest that the we can make a pretty good case for the khukuri design dispersing east from the Mediterranean and ending up in Nepal.

One thing to remember is a khukuri, for all its virtues, isn't a perfect weapon for all situations. Nothing is. I'd bet one reason it's stayed popular in Nepal is because it fits the needs of the people well. Whether the design originated in the Himalayas somewhere, or whether it originated in the mountains of the Mediterranean basin and made the trek on someone's belt, it's well-adapted for a rural, agrarian lifestyle on the slopes.

F

[Gonzalo G]

I agree with you, Fearn, all that can be. Though it seems that Nepal is out of the commercial routes, that can be. The problem is to find evidence. I believe there is too much to discover and learn in history and archeology matters...I feel we are just beginning...too many questions unanswered, and clouding everything too many myths and speculations...The mediterranen basin is the source of the more antique cultures. But about the khukri, I believe is crucial to find out when did it appear, and how were their original versions. If it is a latter weapon, lets say 17th-18th Century, we must find its origins in more near places and weapons.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry I just cannot believe the Alexander myth. It smacks of Victorian bollocks, like Congo knives being dropped from trees "the Congolese live in trees you know" Then adopted by the "COLLECTORS" The Victornian collectors had intertests in ideas of collections from noble races. We know collector belief can become very firmly entrenched. As for visiting museums that can be purely just a collection, perhaps with a little knowledge based on the old story. Who is not going to tell the wealthy visitor what they want to hear?

The Victorians had no idea of Mohenjo-Daro when forming these ideas of Greek influence.
Just the idea that the Western world formed from Greco/Roman base has no vestige of such a splendid weapon should make one question the idea that one small pocket of people should adopt this weapon and nothing else of the culture.

In this map of Alexanders route to India he got nowhere near Napal. Why not find the Kukri {outside of British Empire production} in Pakistan and the other lands on his advance and retreat.

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/ancientfilmCC304/lecture18/detail.php?linenum=8

[VANDOO]

NOT MY FIELD AT ALL BUT SOME SMALL OBSERVATIONS.
THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT OWN A SWORD BUT EVERYONE COULD AFFORD AND NEED A WORK KNIFE. THE KUKRI IS VERY SUITED FOR THIS AND ALSO IS A VERY EFFECTIVE WEAPON. THE CURVE OF THE BLADE WOULD FACILITATE CUTTING GRAIN, RICE AND GRASS. THE WEIGHT AND CURVE ALSO MAKE IT VERY GOOD TO CLEAR A TRAIL OR CUT BAMBOO OR WOOD.
EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A TRAINED WARRIOR YOU WOULD BE VERY GOOD AT USING THE KNIFE YOU HAD WORKED WITH MOST OF YOUR LIFE. SO IN A FIGHT WHERE EVERYONE WAS INVOLVED MOST OF THE WEAPONS WOULD BE OF THE MORE COMMON AND AFFORDABLE TYPE.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO CORRELATE THE RANGE OF SIZES OF KUKRI BASED ON AGE. WERE THE OLDER ONES SMALLER OR LARGER?
ONE PROBLEM IS WORK KNIVES SELDOM SURVIVE AS THEY ARE USED UP OVER THE YEARS AND WHEN THE KNIFE IS NO LONGER OF PRACTICAL USE WAS NO DOUBT TURNED IN TO THE ONE WHO MADE KUKRIES PERHAPS IN TRADE FOR A NEW ONE SO OLD ONES WILL BE RARE UNLESS USED AS BURIAL GOODS.

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

As I pointed out, Alexander's Army doesn't have to be the route by which this design dispersed. However, it does seem that the oldest versions of this type of knife appear in the Mediterranean (where, despite your skepticism, they were known as the falcata and kopis). Given that we know trade routes existed between Europe and Asia, it's possible that the kukri shape passed east, and was preserved in Nepal because it fit their lifestyle.

We can therefore argue that the design originated in Europe and was transferred East. We could also argue that it's an independent invention. There's reasonable evidence on both sides.

F

[ariel]

In many places, there are vicious arguments about ethnicity, cultural heritage, roots of artefacts etc.
For example, there is a trend in modern Russia to define "cossaks' as a separate ethnos ( absurd, if you ask me). But they seriously claim that cossacks had separate ethnic origins, material culture and, of course, weapons. Per that view, war karabela and shashka are not Polish or Caucasian in origin, but rather genuine ancient weapons attributable to the distinct Cossack ethnos.
Not being familiar with the history of Nepal, I am just curious whether there are historical tensions in pinpointing their ethnic origin to Mongoloid or Hindu cultures? If this is the case, it might color the ascertainment of Kukri vs. Kora as the "national" weapon of Nepal.
I am not trying to throw oil on the fire, but unfortunately, far too often, partisan nationalistic views obscure and distort real history.
So, please put my mind to rest, that there is nothing of that nature in the contemporary Nepalese historical research.

[sirupate]

Hello Ariel,

Whilst there is within some ethnic groups in Nepal a re-surgance of going back to their original names before they were influenced by Brahmins from India, and who took those names to gain prestige and favour, it doesn't seem to have effected the way they view the National Weapon of Nepal (the kukri/khukuri). Since this debate I have been collating views about the Khunda/Khuda from Nepal, which is proving quite interesting.

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

In many places, there are vicious arguments about ethnicity, cultural heritage, roots of artefacts etc.
For example, there is a trend in modern Russia to define "cossaks' as a separate ethnos ( absurd, if you ask me). But they seriously claim that cossacks had separate ethnic origins, material culture and, of course, weapons. Per that view, war karabela and shashka are not Polish or Caucasian in origin, but rather genuine ancient weapons attributable to the distinct Cossack ethnos.
Not being familiar with the history of Nepal, I am just curious whether there are historical tensions in pinpointing their ethnic origin to Mongoloid or Hindu cultures? If this is the case, it might color the ascertainment of Kukri vs. Kora as the "national" weapon of Nepal.
I am not trying to throw oil on the fire, but unfortunately, far too often, partisan nationalistic views obscure and distort real history.
So, please put my mind to rest, that there is nothing of that nature in the contemporary Nepalese historical research.


Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?

[Emanuel]

Great discussion folks!

On pages 83-86 of "Hindu Arms and Ritual, Arms and Armour from India 1400-1865" (2004) Elgood shows a number of south-western Indian swords of the Vijayanagara period, 7th century CE. Some of these are fairly large, their blades looking like precursors to the yataghan or sossoun-pata. Elgood includes pictures of two reliefs (8.13 Gana holding a [khukri-like] sword...Pellava, mid-seventh century; 8.21 Warrior...[holding a khukri-like sword] from the sixteenth century). Unfortuantely I cannot scan them at the moment, maybe someone else can until I can do so.

My point is that there is material to support the development of the khukri on the Indian subcontinent, where the forward recurve edge has precendece. I don't see any problem with both Mediterranean and Indian cultures developing similar blades. If we take the example fo the celtic, northern Europen sax, that same shape exists in Eastern European Thracian knives, and is found again in the Arabic shafra.

The Alexander and trade routes theories seem plausible to me, but sometimes different peoples come up with similar solutions to similar problems. The top-heavy forward recurve makes a good chopper, so it shows up where a compromise between an axe and a long blade was needed. Once martial strategies and arts changed, the shape lost popularity in favour of something longer and with a straight cutting edge, as in Europe.

Just some thoughts.

[Jim McDougall]

Just saw your post Simon....nicely put!!! Thank you for this very nicely handled response, and I have very much enjoyed your sound approach to the research you are doing, avoiding such volatile distractions.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello Simon, about the khuda/khunda/kora debate, I recall Beoram (Nepali linguist, on IKRHS) posting a number of guides to Nepali words.

Among them was

"from Old Indo-Aryan (~Sanskrit) kshura 'razor' (cognate with Greek kshuron 'razor') >
*khura > "

This word may be the root of khukuri, but maybe it's also the root for what we call a "kora" in the West. Furthermore, it seems to me that in Nepali the sound "d" and "r" are, to a certain extent interchangeable (open to correction), as in "kothimora / kothimoda" or "kaudo / kauro". Maybe khuDa is not so farfetched for khuRa > kora?

More thoughts...

Emanuel

[sirupate]

Thanks Jim :)

Hello Emanuel,

Beoram is quite correct with the linguistic connection, but how relevent that is, I honestly do not know.

Khuda/Khunda is pronounced Coodah, the c as in coup, I don't know how the Kora pronunciation came about? Unless that is how its spelt or pronounced in India?

With kothimora it tends to be pronounced by Gurkhas kotiemora or kotimora. I must confess to never having seen it written Kothimoda in Nepal, or in England by a Nepali/Gurkha. Once again though Kothimoda could be an Indian or Tibetan interpretation?

Kaudi seems to be the most used term in Nepal from my experience.

I hope that is of some help, cheers Simon

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?


That´s right, Jim. To begin with, we must question the european ethnocentric, ideologically biased and emotionally charged 'theories' from the 19th Century (a real theory must have some logic structure and must be supported in facts showing a causal relation in time and space), to make a more scientific approach. European influences did exist, but they have to be demostrated in every case. I don't think in the future, with more advances in archeological discoveries, we cannot find some of those evidences we need. Alexander presence is a possible, but to me not a probable, cause of the down curved blades in India or Nepal. Is more consistent the probability of a development in the indian subcontinent, as Manolo said, with or without foreign influences of some kind. The roman presence in India is more consistent in any case, since although they did not invaded India, they had a continuos and relatively intense commercial contact with it, not to mention South India, which had intense contacts with the arabian peninsula from the most antique pre-islamic times, and we must remember that Yemen was an important producer of swords from which we do not have much information. This is a more plausible source of influences, and not a transitory passing of an army. Also, we have to take on account that the goorkha seem to have carried in their invassion into Nepal the kora, a down curved blade which seems to have a very different origin that of the indian area. I don't believe this kind of blade can be also attributed to greek influences. The more antique roots of our world culture and the incredible inmense commercial routes in the most remote times are suprising us every day with each new discovery in this direction. This is science.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jens Nordlunde]

I don't know from where the kukri origins, and it may have taken a long time for it to get the form it has to day, but I have see a picture of a stone relief from a temple in south India. On the relief you see a row of soldiers with kukri like 'swords/daggers'. Sorry I can't show it, as I don't remember where I saw it, probably on Google.

[Andrew]

Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?

I agree completely, Jim.

Ariel, let's not go there, please.

[Gavin Nugent]

G'day guys,

I have been following this thread with great interest and been doing some reading of my own.
Please view the image attached as another possible theory behind the origins of the Kukri.
It could well have started it's life as a working blade much like the sickle mold found in China that dates from the 4th century BC.
Just some thoughts to further ponder as the moulding does look much like some of the early kukri, that is being long and narrow by profile.
The image came from a book published by the Australian Arts exhibition Corporation that was a reproduction of the same book published in China the year before, being 1976. The book was bought to print when the Archaeological finds of China travelled to Australia in 1977.

Gav

[spiral]

From a Western definition point of view you are quite correct, however in Nepal they don't quite have those defintions on handle types and weapons as a whole, and that's pretty much the mind set I now have when talking about Nepalese weaponry.

However regarding Kora, in Nepal they are not called that, they are called Khuda, so perhaps it should be khuda style handle when refering to Nepalese weapons? If one wants to be definitave in a Western collector type way?



As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda,
Cheers Simon



Khuda/Khunda is pronounced Coodah, the c as in coup, I don't know how the Kora pronunciation came about? Unless that is how its spelt or pronounced in India?

That’s strange, most people we met in Nepal 4 years ago were very aware of aware of differences between kora,tulwar,shamshir , their grips &blade shapes etc.as I recall. They just didn’t bother to define kukri in the sort of detail western collectors & dealers do.

Kora or Khora are acceptable terms to me, as are khuda & khonra as are the 15 or so spellings of khukri there all correct.. After all we are not writing in Sanscrit or Devangari etc.

I would say Its probably Col.Kirkatrik who introduced the spellings khora & indeed Khookeri to the west when his work was published in 1811}.{{By William Miller of London,}
{About his mission to Nepal in 1793} He also pointed out that at that time there were 8 or 9 main languages in Nepal which may explain some people beliving khuda or Khunda to be correct at Khora or Khora incorrect.


Hope that helps a little towards finding about a few more definitive facts about these great swords of the Himalayas & where misunderstandings about British & Nepali history & translations seem to have occurred.

Spiral