Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[fernando]

I still have to clean the rust from this piece, but i can't wait to found out what the marks on it represent.
Anyone here familiar with these things?
Thanks a lot in advance
Fernando

.

[Jim McDougall]

WOW!!!
That is a beauty, the famed M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt, as carried by the 2nd Dragoons ("Royal Scots Greys") at thier immortal charge at Waterloo.
The marking 'I. Gill' was of course John Gill, one of the more prominant swordmakers of Birmingham. Osborn & Gunby as seen on the scabbard was another purveyor of c.1800-10 and typically supplied M1796 patterns for both light and heavy cavalry.
In incongruent scabbard in my estimation has always suggested battlefield pickups, as these swords and scabbards were carried off fields of battle in the aftermath, and seldom were this disconnected pieces found together.
The swords which remained with original scabbards were of course with those survivors.
There is always of course the fact that many of these swords were collected into the Royal Armouries as they became obsolete in the 1820's, but it is my understanding that many, if not most of those were destroyed in a fire in the 1850's if I recall. There was a brief project at refurbishing these into other practice or cutlass type weapons I think, but cannot recall that distinctly either. It would seem unlikely that mismatches would occur in the case of weapons turned in.

The crowned 4 is an inspectors mark after the weapon was 'viewed' on acceptance for issue. Usually regimental marks are found on the underside of the disc, and include regiment numerics, rack and issue numbers.

This could very well have been one of these famed 'disc hilts' that was carried by the 'Greys' that day at Waterloo. I have seen examples of disc hilts that were indeed there, and also by this maker I. Gill.

This is what I can recall for now, but I'll have to find the references for the inspectors mark in Robson, but its buried someplace here in the bookmobile!! :)

All the best,
Jim




P.S. Please be ultra careful cleaning this, super fine steel wool and light grade oil...see if you can find those markings on the underside of the disc. This may be a real treasure!! Whether so marked or not, these disc hilts have become about as rare as hens teeth..so have profound value regardless.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
The blade would have been made after 1801 as that was when the founder of the company Thomas Gill died and his sons Thomas, James and John took over. Many of these Heavy Cavalry swords were modified during their working lives usually the blade tip geometry was changed and sometimes the guard was cut to make it more comfortable and easier to draw. As Jim says good examples of this pattern are pretty scarce so a real nice find.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

In research on these many years ago, I had found a reference somewhere that indicated that John Gill had a contract for a number of these swords in 1811. In subsequent years I tried everything to find that reference, and Annis & May, Wilkinson, and other references including communicating with Brian Robson himself revealed no further reference to that contract.

As for the modifications, I have understood that the Royal Scots Greys before leaving Gravesend for Belgium, were ordered to grind down the back edges of the blades on thier disc hilts. It is also my understanding that after Waterloo, the inner part of the discs were ground down and in many cases the langets removed (never quite understood the purpose of removing the langets).

[fernando]

Hi guys,
I am not yet done with the investigation on this piece, but i will post some 'intermediary' stuff, to keep the thread warm.
First of all, many thanks for your contributions, Jim and Norman :) .
I have finished the cleaning of the blade and the scabbard (inside and outside); i was glad to find thqat the wooden plates are still there.
There are no more marks, except for a little V on the guard front; i wonder if this is the punction for viewed.
I don't think this sword was used by a Scot Dragoon at Waterloo. Judging by the circumstances, it should have instead being used by the British forces that were poured into Portugal by the time of Napoleonic invasions (1808-1814) or, most probably used by a Portuguese soldier.
Remember that Britain, at the time already an industrialized country, and with a strong need to stop Napoleon to occupy the peninsula and strangle the whole continent access, besides supplying armed forces, has equiped the Portuguese with staggering quantities of military equipment and all kinds of gear.

Between 1808 and 1814 the figures were:
160 000 Brown Bess
2 300 Baker carbines
3 000 Cavalry carbines
7 000 Pistols
15 000 Cavalry swords
150 000 Black leather gear
190 000 Uniforms
53 000 pairs of shoes
5 700 pairs of boots
10 000 Black leather provisions
30 000 plumed shakos.

Also according to some sources were further supplied in 1809:
30 000 coats
40 000 shirts
40 000 socks
40 000 sacks
20 000 blankets
5 000 saddles
84 bundles of surgery equipment.

(These tremendous supplies were rather strategical; we must remember that Junot, in his first invasion, had immediately demilitarized and disarmed the country, which was already in a critical condition.)

So it wouldn't be a surprise that this sword was distributed to a Portuguese dragoon or even footman; although local infantry officers were equiped with the Portuguese sword version model 1806, the majority of the 1796 swords supplied to Portuguese were shortened by four inches, due to their small stature. But then this fact somehow puts aside the hipothesis that this example was used by a Portuguese, as its blade seems to be entire (34 1/ 2"). I mean 'somehow', as the source i am quoting has come across some ten specimens with a shortened blade and one with its entire length, which belonged to a guy that served in a militia regiment.
It should be added that the 1796 pattern was used by Portuguese cavalry until as late as 1851.
By the way, Jim and Norman, did you know that the British called this sword, woodchopper? :eek:
You say Jim, that that John Gill has supplied a numer of these swords in his 1811 contract ? Might he have made prior supllies?
In April 1811 Massena was defeated by the allied forces near Lisbon and started his painfull retreat.
The Osborn scabbard that comes now with this sword is marked with the Osborn & Gunby society name , which has been active between 1808-1821.
We may even have the fantasy that, once the British transferred to Portugal bulk quanties of weaponry, maybe the inspection control was also 'bulky wise' and this sword was already supllied with an unmarried scabbard; but this is only a fantasy as i said.
When i visit again the seller, i have a promise that he will tel me something about this sword provenance.
However there is a difference between owner's provenance and user's provenance.
Let's see if i can find out about its original user, rather than only its last owner :shrug: .

By the way Jim, do you think the inspector's mark (crowned 4) could drive us to a determined inspector's name and or a date of inspection ?

All the best
Fernando

.

[fernando]

...Many of these Heavy Cavalry swords were modified during their working lives usually the blade tip geometry was changed and sometimes the guard was cut to make it more comfortable and easier to draw ...

As for the modifications, I have understood that the Royal Scots Greys before leaving Gravesend for Belgium, were ordered to grind down the back edges of the blades on thier disc hilts. It is also my understanding that after Waterloo, the inner part of the discs were ground down and in many cases the langets removed (never quite understood the purpose of removing the langets) ...

I have read the following:
... There were a number of slight variations made in service including modifying the point from hatchet to spear point, removing the langets, and cutting away the inside of the disc to prevent wear on the uniform ... The change from hatchet point to spear point was believed to be a result of experiences in the Peninsula and one diary account by Cornet James Smithies makes reference to this being undertaken before Waterloo ... Modifications to the disc edge seem to be immediate with reference to 364 swords of the 2nd Dragoon Guards being altered by 'cutting the hilts' in 1797 ... The removal of langets was more frequently a field based operation and the result of the swords being difficult to quickly replace in the scabbard...
(from the "Swords and Pistols Website").

Fernando

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Seeing the photographs of the hilt and blade you appear to have a complete unmodified example. Having handled a few of these I wonder just how long one could wield such a sword in a battle situation. I suspect a lot of hours in practice would be needed before you could confidently handle a 'beefy' blade like this in actual combat. I wonder if, like the draw arm on longbowmen, the sword arm was noticeably more muscle intensive than its counterpart, I suppose it must have been. I look forward to more info on this most distinctive sabre.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Wouldn't mind being let loose in the store that housed that list of equipment.

[Jim McDougall]

Pretty amazing 'intermediary' stuff Fernando ! :) and thank you for the note on the field modifications you added as well. It is amazing how much info is available these days with the computer, as opposed to how we did things in the old days...lots of letter writing, and waiting...(no more cracks about parchment Andrew!!! :) )

Actually I had heard about the term 'woodchopper' which was sort of derisively used describing both the M1796 swords for British cavalry. I recall that from an article written by John Morgan in "Classic Arms and Militaria" back in the 90's about the M1796 swords, and I think it was titled 'chopping wood' or to that effect. At that time I was very fascinated by these huge British disc hilts, and was talking with him a great deal on the ancestry of these swords to the M1769-1775 Austrian disc hilts, handled by then Capt. LeMarchant on campaign in Flanders. He was a brilliant officer and wanted to bring standardization of swords to the British army and proposed both the light and heavy patterns based on these and other European examples.
He was deemed the 'scientific soldier' and was killed in cavalry combat at Salamanca during the campaigns there.

The stamped crown with number was the mark used when the weapon was viewed, and this configuration was used up to about 1820, when a letter was also added. According to Robson ("Swords of the British Army", p.191) individual viewers used different numbers at different times, so it would likely be hard to determine with any certainty. The 'V' is puzzling, as it does not seem that letter was ever used to denote 'viewing', and it seemed that it would be rather indiscriminate, although it would seem that organized control in those times were somewhat irregular. The crowned number stamp would seem to negate the need for the V as a view mark. I had thought perhaps it might be an arrow, which of course were ordnance marks then, but this seems more the letter V rather than the phaeon, and there is no BO (board of ordnance initials).

The Gill contract I referred to remains completely unsubstantiated so I can only presume my memory, or mind :) was sound concerning this reference.
The Gill family was profoundly one of the key producers of swords for the service, and I cannot imagine there were not other contracts. It seems there is a work in progress on the Gill swords, but I do not yet have further details.

Norman, you are right, these swords would have been horrendously consuming in actual combat, and the only driving force that enabled these troopers to use them as such was virtually pure adrenalin. The amount of skill in the average troopers swordsmanship was limited, which was what drew the derisive comment from the French, and probably did resemble chopping action. The French cavalry were keen swordsmen, and adamantly preferred the thrust, emphasizing the conflict over that cut vs. thrust over the next century in many European armies.
From what little I recall of fencing (many many moons ago!) working at strengthening various muscle groups was essential before handling a blade, and even with the very light sabre, one was spent quickly in combat.
A great movie was "The Duellists" where the combatants in a heated duel were incredibly evenly matched swordsmen in the French cavalry, and fought until both were so exhausted they could barely left the sabres.It was often said that after combat in an engagement, and intense action, horsemen could be seen just sitting motionless in thier saddles with tears streaming down thier faces, strictly from the anticlimatic release of adrenalin.

Well, I didnt mean to write a book :) oops,

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

By the way, for how long was this 1796 pattern in service ... in Britain, i mean ? Did i hear 1821 ?

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

By the way, for how long was this 1796 pattern in service ... in Britain, i mean ? Did i hear 1821 ?

Fernando

Interestingly, the disc hilts stayed in service in Austria considerably longer than the British....the British came up with the M1821 which was a sheet steel bowl guard and the rest of the hilt was essentially like the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three branch guard. There were apparantly problems in manufacture and issuance of these patterns so they did not effectively come out until 1829... thus they are often termed M1829's.
The disc hilt was around only for a short while as these were issued, and many of course went to yeomanry units.
As mentioned, these were turned in to the armouries where they were stored when many were destroyed in the 1850's (again if memory serves.....no...I wasn;t there!! ).


BTW, while the chopping wood remarks were loosely applied, it seems it was more intended for the M1796 heavy swords, while the light cavalry sabres received contrary reviews. It was said that Napoleon decried these sabres as 'barbaric' for the horrendous injuries they inflicted, and at Waterloo it is known that the heavy cavalry swords also inflicted terrible wounds and carnage. While the chopping connotation suggested ineffectiveness, it sounds like in at least may cases there were very effective.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
Great sword :cool: .Could the 'V' on the guard be the Roman numeral for 5 ?

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Great sword :cool: .Could the 'V' on the guard be the Roman numeral for 5 ?

Regards David


Outstanding David!! You're always thinkin' !!! Very good question, did units in Portugal use Roman numerals in marking weapons?

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Outstanding David!! You're always thinkin' !!! Very good question, did units in Portugal use Roman numerals in marking weapons?

All the best,
Jim

Don't you know Jim, David is a born thinker :eek:
Hi, i am glad you popped in, David :)

I don't think this is a roman five. Maybe some kind of symbol, even an owner's mark, to distinguish it from others; i wish i knew.
Regimental/rack numbers are composed of a few letters and numbers. In fact i have just learnt that the 1796 pattern swords that were distributed to Portuguese cavalry bear such regimental markings, eventually in the scabbard(see example attached), so the probabability that this specific one was used by my country fellows is now more remote, although surely many thousands were used by local regiments and even military police, so i have also learnt.
Definitely this was a popular weapon around here; even King Dom Pedro IV (who became Emperor of Brazil), used one of the kind.
Oh, i have forgotten to mention that my example came with a leather sword knot, in a very bad shape ... much too dry and braking in certain parts. I have soaked it in castor oil, to try and return some 'life' to it, and next Monday i will take it to the shoe maker to try and sew the broken parts.
This knot by could in a way define the age of the sword, assuming that the sword user would not mind to acquire a new one in case the original got lost or destroyed. It happens that a webpage that is selling sword knot replicas pretends that the knot version i have, with an optional brass button, is the second model for this sword and appeared in 1821. I am therefore a bit disapointed, as i presumed that this sword was an earlier example. I will try and double check this knot information.
Well, at least the scabbard can't be newer than 1821, as this is the date Osborn & Gunby partnership ceased.
Fernando

.

[celtan]

5 minutes of physical combat can leave you utterly devastated, specially when the muscle's "oxygen debt" manifests itself...

The sword thrust is far more lethal than the slash, since a sword's point concentrates an incredible amount of energy, being able to slip through the ribs or even pierce flat bones. The slash is an incredibly effective psychological weapon, since its effects are ghastly and destroy survivor's morale.

M




Norman, you are right, these swords would have been horrendously consuming in actual combat, and the only driving force that enabled these troopers to use them as such was virtually pure adrenalin. The amount of skill in the average troopers swordsmanship was limited, which was what drew the derisive comment from the French, and probably did resemble chopping action. The French cavalry were keen swordsmen, and adamantly preferred the thrust, emphasizing the conflict over that cut vs. thrust over the next century in many European armies.
From what little I recall of fencing (many many moons ago!) working at strengthening various muscle groups was essential before handling a blade, and even with the very light sabre, one was spent quickly in combat.
A great movie was "The Duellists" where the combatants in a heated duel were incredibly evenly matched swordsmen in the French cavalry, and fought until both were so exhausted they could barely left the sabres.It was often said that after combat in an engagement, and intense action, horsemen could be seen just sitting motionless in thier saddles with tears streaming down thier faces, strictly from the anticlimatic release of adrenalin.

Well, I didnt mean to write a book :) oops,

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=celtan]5 minutes of physical combat can leave you utterly devastated, specially when the muscle's "oxygen debt" manifests itself...

The sword thrust is far more lethal than the slash, since a sword's point concentrates an incredible amount of energy, being able to slip through the ribs or even pierce flat bones. The slash is an incredibly effective psychological weapon, since its effects are ghastly and destroy survivor's morale.

M[/QUOTE


Most interesting perspective, Manuel, and I hadn't thought of those aspects, which are extremely well placed. The controversy over which was more effective, the cut vs. the thrust, carried through the entire 19th century, and ironically by the time the M1908 British and American M1913 huge bowlguard swords were introduced, the sword itself was essentially obsolete.

There was some intriguing study written by J.Christoph Amberger in his "Secret History of the Sword" concerning the medical aspects of sword combat, which despite sounding gruesome, was actually compelling when read objectively. There were some other similar studies done concerning the nature of warfare injuries revealed in archaeological discoveries that pertained mostly to Anglo-Saxon and Norse studies if I recall.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Don't you know Jim, David is a born thinker :eek:
Hi, i am glad you popped in, David :)

I don't think this is a roman five. Maybe some kind of symbol, even an owner's mark, to distinguish it from others; i wish i knew.
Regimental/rack numbers are composed of a few letters and numbers. In fact i have just learnt that the 1796 pattern swords that were distributed to Portuguese cavalry bear such regimental markings, eventually in the scabbard(see example attached), so the probabability that this specific one was used by my country fellows is now more remote, although surely many thousands were used by local regiments and even military police, so i have also learnt.
Definitely this was a popular weapon around here; even King Dom Pedro IV (who became Emperor of Brazil), used one of the kind.
Oh, i have forgotten to mention that my example came with a leather sword knot, in a very bad shape ... much too dry and braking in certain parts. I have soaked it in castor oil, to try and return some 'life' to it, and next Monday i will take it to the shoe maker to try and sew the broken parts.
This knot by could in a way define the age of the sword, assuming that the sword user would not mind to acquire a new one in case the original got lost or destroyed. It happens that a webpage that is selling sword knot replicas pretends that the knot version i have, with an optional brass button, is the second model for this sword and appeared in 1821. I am therefore a bit disapointed, as i presumed that this sword was an earlier example. I will try and double check this knot information.
Well, at least the scabbard can't be newer than 1821, as this is the date Osborn & Gunby partnership ceased.
Fernando

.


Hi Fernando,
Indeed he is!!!! a true weapons forensics scholar!! He always has me thinking too.....the words, 'why didnt I think of that?' :)

Good notes on the 'V', and I agree that this mark/numeral seems quite 'sterile' in the sense of that possible application, but still was a very good idea. Perhaps it might be a mark of acceptance as the weapon entered Portuguese stores? I dont think it would be an owners mark, as these troopers weapons were somewhat impersonally issued as I understand.
I think the closest they got to personal issue was a rack number.

The sword knot sounds interesting, good tip on the castor oil...although the presence of an original sword knot seems almost miraculous! It is incredibly seldom that these survive with these older swords, and suggests that this one was likely collected originally a very long time ago, and has remained relatively static since then. Such weapons tend not to repeatedly change hands, and then more personally rather than the saleroom circuits, where they get passed around indiscriminately, tending to lose such components and provenance related information along the way.

Again, a fantastic weapon with outstanding history, and its great to have it here to discuss. Thank you so much for sharing it!

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Jim,

The medical aspects would make a very interesting sub-subject. Since you seem to have given a lot of thought to the subject, would you care to expound on same?

Best

Manolo



[QUOTE=celtan]5 minutes of physical combat can leave you utterly devastated, specially when the muscle's "oxygen debt" manifests itself...

The sword thrust is far more lethal than the slash, since a sword's point concentrates an incredible amount of energy, being able to slip through the ribs or even pierce flat bones. The slash is an incredibly effective psychological weapon, since its effects are ghastly and destroy survivor's morale.

M[/QUOTE


Most interesting perspective, Manuel, and I hadn't thought of those aspects, which are extremely well placed. The controversy over which was more effective, the cut vs. the thrust, carried through the entire 19th century, and ironically by the time the M1908 British and American M1913 huge bowlguard swords were introduced, the sword itself was essentially obsolete.

There was some intriguing study written by J.Christoph Amberger in his "Secret History of the Sword" concerning the medical aspects of sword combat, which despite sounding gruesome, was actually compelling when read objectively. There were some other similar studies done concerning the nature of warfare injuries revealed in archaeological discoveries that pertained mostly to Anglo-Saxon and Norse studies if I recall.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

The medical aspects would make a very interesting sub-subject. Since you seem to have given a lot of thought to the subject, would you care to expound on same?

Best

Manolo



[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]


Hi Manolo,
It really is interesting, though I will confess, it is the least appealing aspect of studying weapons to me. It is of course obvious that swords were intended for a purpose, that is to kill and maim, and the results are not nearly as inspiring as the tradition and romantic aesthetics of the weapon.

I prefer to focus on the more subtle symbolism, history and developmental aspects of weapons, despite acknowledging some of the necessary recognition associated with thier use.

Thank you for your expressed confidence in my perspective though, received as a welcome compliment considering your own profound medical knowledge and its potential application in understanding the use of weapons. My observations would be cursory in comparison, as I've only briefly seen the references I mentioned.

All very best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

... it is the least appealing aspect of studying weapons to me. It is of course obvious that swords were intended for a purpose, that is to kill and maim, and the results are not nearly as inspiring as the tradition and romantic aesthetics of the weapon.
I prefer to focus on the more subtle symbolism, history and developmental aspects of weapons, despite acknowledging some of the necessary recognition associated with thier use...


Amen.

Fernando.

[fernando]

...Good notes on the 'V', and I agree that this mark/numeral seems quite 'sterile' in the sense of that possible application, but still was a very good idea. Perhaps it might be a mark of acceptance as the weapon entered Portuguese stores?
I guess maybe yes ... but quicker maybe not ... i don't know. One particularity is that this symbol is perfectly punched and in a very accurate position, like for a technical purpose ... just wondering.


... I dont think it would be an owners mark, as these troopers weapons were somewhat impersonally issued as I understand.
I think the closest they got to personal issue was a rack number...
Maybe this is circumstancial; weapons would have rack numbers if they were used by personel residing in barracks and their weapons were stored in the racks in the end of the day or in other periodic context. Supposing they were distributed permanently to guys ? If you are on the field, in operational conditions, you tend to make a (micro) mark in your gear, not to be confused with that of your mates, or to avoid those that lost their items from grabing yours. I saw this happened (the marking), with gear that was not numbered ... bush knives, cartridge magazines and the like. What we consider impersonal is the heavy stuff we pick from the armoury to take in a operation and return by the end of the day, like the machine gun, the mortar and things like that; those that are not permanently distributed to you.


... The sword knot sounds interesting, good tip on the castor oil...although the presence of an original sword knot seems almost miraculous! It is incredibly seldom that these survive with these older swords, and suggests that this one was likely collected originally a very long time ago, and has remained relatively static since then. Such weapons tend not to repeatedly change hands, and then more personally rather than the saleroom circuits, where they get passed around indiscriminately, tending to lose such components and provenance related information along the way ...
Yes, this knot is authentic but also very tired; and amazingly it has some faded letters painted on its reverse. (I will try and picture those letters, after i try and sew the broken parts). This would reinforce the fact that the weapon was marked by its owner/user, but it then places the V punch in a riddle position.
I don't think this piece has been in sales rooms or auction circuits; more probably from somebody´s colletion or ancestor, i would guess.
I am dead waiting to visit the seller and hear what he has to say about this sword provenance. I will surely come back here to tell you guys all that i gather.

All the best

Fernando

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...I am also NOT a violent person, nor crave the bloodier aspects of edged weapons, but I do wish to argue the point of thrust being more deadly than slash. IN GENERAL, I would agree with you in that the sword, especially the rapier or heavy cavalry types used on horseback at full thrust, is mor lethal. BUT a skilled swordsman slashing at vital areas could be just as deadly or more. After all, a thrust to the thigh might be lethal, but a slash would more than likely sever the femoral artery. A thrust to the abdomen might puncture the liver, spleen or kidney, but the slash could disembowel or sever the mesenteric arteries. The thrust could puncture a lung or piece the heart, but the slash could sever the carotid arteries, lacerate the trachea or esophagus (a surprisingly fatal injury), plus it would seem that slashing injuries would be more prone to festering/sepsis/infection. I've been in the medical field for nearly 20 years and have seen my share of traumatic injuries from edged impliments (machetes, swords, switch blades, axes, etc) and can attest that it all comes down to the skill of the attacker. I did not mean to be so gruesome here, so I hope no one takes offense, but I do think this point needs to be made, especially in regards to fighting styles and different cultural forms of sword fighting. After all, nearly the entire samurai sword-fighting system relies on slashing/slicing blows and cuts vs the traditional thrust. I personally wouldn't want to be on the end of either one of them! :eek:

[katana]

....A few thoughts..

I think we have to consider a sword's effectiveness by the 'damage' it can do. The evolution of weapons would be dictated by this. Also understanding the swords primary function ie cut or thrust also gives clues to the 'style' in which it was used and whether it was effective against opponents....for instance the British Government favoured the thrust in the late 19th C but a number of their adversaries prefered the 'cut' ....Indian Tulwars springs to mind.
I would think that the thrust would be an easier technique to master and any 'deep' stab wound would at least debilitate your enemy. The slash would require more skill, would be aimed at specific areas of the body but would be easier to 'parry'.

I also feel, that although 'gruesome', understanding the injuries (fatal or otherwise) received in battle gives us an insight into the world of the individuals that once wielded the swords. A sword fight is 'upclose' and 'personal' and I often wonder about the thoughts of those, standing on the battlefield , waiting for the order to attack ..... :eek: especially if they were the second wave ...with their comrades laying, dead or dying on the 'field'.

The symbolism of the sword was 'annointed' with blood ....and wielded with courage....without fully understanding the gruesome-ness ...we cannot fully appreciate that courage.

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Very good points Fernando, and I am really looking forward to seeing the knot as well as hearing more on provenance from the seller. I think there may be some good potential since as we agree, this weapon does not seem to have entered the 'general community' in antique arms salerooms.
What you note on the mysterious V stamp seems quite valid, and all the more puzzling as it seems far too professionally applied for a field mark that may have been placed by an individual trooper for identification. I know what you mean about a mans personal equipment, and trying to keep those items from being assimilated into others in the general population. As you note, the heavier and general items for distribution and return after use are quite another matter.
We will keep after the mystery on this as this sort of thing really gets me after a while, and I know there is surely some simple explanation out there!

Mark and David, outstanding perceptions on the actual effects of these weapons from the medical and observers standpoint, which as I noted are what I personally consider the most unsavory aspects of these studies.
It is indeed in some degree necessary to consider these in assessing the martial practicality of a weapon, how it is used, and of course does help us understand the dimension of the sheer horror, trauma and tragedy that these individuals faced.

I will admit, there is a certain 'train wreck' intrique within most of us in varying degree, which invariably draws our curiosity to reach into these depths in trying to gain dimensional understanding of what these battles and combats must have 'really' been like. As I noted, I have seen detailed studies that have dealt with the medical forensics of such things, and do provide an interesting , though disturbing approach. I think one of the most interesting treatments, which offered a great deal of the psychological effect of such trauma in battle, with some graphic detail, is "Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan. It is an outstanding view into these combats, that achieves, in my opinion, at least a good measure of what we are seeking in understanding these weapons and thier use, and one section is on Waterloo.

The comments by Mark on the thrust are well placed, and of course, the effects of cut vs. thrust were, as noted earlier, a controversy which was constantly debated in much the same technical approach in which modern weapons are often reviewed, quite impersonally. Concerning the matter of sepsis and the thrust, I will add that this was a factor well known, and that the lancers of cavalry units were much hated, due to the horrible and agonizing fate of thier victims, many of whom did not perish quickly and suffered the slowly fatal effects of septic thrust wounds. In battle and its aftermath, these troopers were given absolutely no quarter, and the rancor toward them typically brought immediate dispatch.

The symbolism of the sword is indeed multifaceted, and does represent the powerful elements of honor, tradition, chivalry and heroism, however, recognition of its annointment in blood presents the darker side of humanity and ironically recalls its unfortunate reason for being. In that perspective, we must of course, remember those who experienced the darkness and terror, and respect its sanctity in being held quietly at bay, in hopes that it need not go on.
I believe it was Gen. Robert E. Lee in the Civil War who said, it is good that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it.

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

I have talked with the seller.
Not much on the provenance; only that it was part of a collection, inherited and sold by the family of militaries in Oporto.
The sword knot is back from the shoe maker. It was glued and not sewn, according to his opinnion; not an everlasting job, to my view, but it will do for the time being.
I wish i could discern those stamped letters. Possibly the first and larger one is a B; maybe some day this wil be the track for an ID .
It seems as the I GILL trade mark was active between 1803-1817. I still feed the conviction that this sword was on the field in Portugal, during Napoleonic invasions.

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Hello guys,
This is my first post on this Forum although I have been a member on Sword Forum International for a number of years.
Fernando, I believe that I have just purchased a British P1796 HC sabre with Portuguese markings on the knuckleguard. The markings seem to attribute the sword to the 11th Regiment of Dragoons, 2nd troop. There is also a rack number or trooper number 45. I believe that this regiment was present at the Battle of Salamanca.
The sword was actually originally bought together with a French AN XI scabbard which had been altered to allow the sword to fit.
A very interesting piece.
Ian

[Rick]

Bump for Ian . :)

[asomotif]

Interesting thread, and congrats Fernando with this impressive sword !

Normally I go for the esthetics and beauty of weapons.
But some dicussion on usage and effects seems logical to me.

The "discussion" about thrust and slash intrigues me.
This is a HC (heavy cavalry) sword.
Straight, long, used for the thrust with a frontal attack.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the same period armies would also have a "Light cavalry" ? The guys with the curved swords ie. mameluke sabres, being used for the slash.
So in a battle both techniques would be used.. Or not :shrug:

Best regards,
Willem

Ps. excuse me for wandering of from the ethno forum. No offence intended ;)
I have a 1908 pattern troopers sword in case you want me to change my avatar :D

[Jim McDougall]

Ian, thank you so much for joining us here!!!! not only that, but thank you for reviving this fantastic thread :) I truly enjoyed the discussion on this one, and it brought forth some excellent details on these M1796 Heavy Cavalry swords.

As an interesting historical note, these huge cavalry swords were developed for the British cavalry from the Austrian M1769 disc hilt cavalry sword.
As a young officer serving with Austrian forces in Flanders, Major General John Gaspard LeMarchant saw the effective use of cavalry swords by the Austrians and sought to develop regulation sword patterns for the British cavalry.

The patterns of 1796 for light and heavy cavalry are of course known as the first officially recognized regulation pattern swords for the British cavalry, with the light cavalry sabre considered one of the deadliest sabres known in Europe at the time. The heavy cavalry sword was not so well received, but it cannot be denied that these were used with devastating effect.

While seemingly intended for thrusting, with the huge straight blades, the tips of the blades were radiused into a hatchet type point, which radiused into a deadly cutting profile intended for chopping type cuts.

The Battle of Salamanca was mentioned , and in a touch of tragic irony, Major General LeMarchant died at the head of his heavy cavalry brigade at this battle on 22 July 1812, with troopers of these regiments of dragoons carrying these very swords.

Again Ian, welcome!!! and Fernando, its great to see this fantastic sword again.
Ian could you please post photos of your M1796?

Willem, please do 'wander' here more often!!! and try to get some of the other guys to do the same :) These forums are meant to complement each other , and hopefully the important connections between all these forms of arms and armor will be realized in both ethnographic and European context.

Very good questions you post, and as you have astutely noted, the European cavalry's did operate both heavy and light regiments in different functions in battle. The heavy was the shock action, intended to batter into the enemy positions, while the light was used in flanking attack, pursuit and before combat in reconaissance missions. The huge straight swords of the heavy were intended as earlier noted for heavy chopping action, as well as the thrust as required....while the light cavalry using curved sabres utilized slashing cuts in fast moving combat.

All very best regards,
Jim


P.S. Willem, dont change your avatar :) but why not post your M1908?..a great pattern worthy of some interesting discussion

[Ian Knight]

Thanks Jim,
I don't have the sword in my possession at the moment, I am still awaiting delivery but I have a few photos.
As mentioned, when originally purchased from a dealer in the U.K. the sword was paired with a French AN XI MK 2 scabbard. Both the scabbard and sword had been altered slightly to enable the sword blade and langets to fit the scabbard. My reasoning is that they were probably paired after a Peninsular War action from items found on the field.
The sword has been re-fitted with a very basic wooden grip which is too big and a poor fit. I have recently fitted my own home made grips to two P1796 LC sabres. I may do the same to this P1796 HC sabre, I haven't yet decided. I have a photo of the markings which isn't too clear. I will re-photograph the grip when the sword is delivered to me.
The blade is maker marked: WOOLLEY DEAKIN & Co.
Unfortunately, the sword and scabbard have recently parted company after a marriage of 200 years. The scabbard has now been re-matched with a French AN XI sabre.
The first photo with the blue background is of a P1796 LC sabre which I recently fitted with a grip made by myself.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Ian, welcome to the EA.

The engravings in your sword could also mean 2nd Regiment, 2nd Company weapon #45, if it ever was in Spanish Hands.

Best

Manuel

[fernando]

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Hello Fernando & Celtan,
Thank you both for your kind welcome.
Fernando, I think that you are correct. It is more than likely the 2nd regiment rather than the eleventh. Do you know of any Peninsular battle in which this regiment were present?
I have been desperate to acquire a British P1796 HC sword which are normally out of my price range. My only concern with this one is the fact that the blade has been ground down quite a bit to allow it to fit the French MK 2 scabbard. I wish that I could have bought the sword with the scabbard as together they tell an interesting story. Apart, they are two separate items that show abuse. :mad:
Now I need to find a British scabbard to go with the sword. :(
How do you feel about the grip? Should I take the sword apart and fit a new one or leave as is? The grip has probably been added at a much later date.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )

;)

I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset, which explains Spain's attacks on your country at the very beginning. Spain became an reticent Napoleon's ally only after the British Navy attacked a Spanish Convoy during Peace Time, forcing the country into an open confrontation with England and their allies.

Besides, this sword is _British_. I find it difficult to internalize the concept of the Brits arming a Portuguese unit that would serve Ol'Nappy.

:rolleyes:

Since Portuguese and Spanish Military abbreviations seem identical, couldn't this be a Spanish sword obtained as British military assistance, after Spain was invaded by Nappy, and they became enemies?

The relations between Spanish, French, Portuguese and British during the Napoleonic Wars were incredibly complex, and sometimes downright bizarre,

Best

¡ Oro,Vino y Mujeres..!

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/web%20stuff/TgC_Navidad_197.gif

M





Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Nice to see you here. The 1796 L.C. sabre grip has worked out really well, the orders will be rolling in soon. I hope you enjoy your time here at the E.A. and I look forward to seeing examples in your collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Hello Norman,
Thank you for your kind welcome.
My interest is in swords of the Napoleonic Wars although my collection is very small.
My pride and joy is a French AN XI heavy cavalry (Cuirassier's) sabre dated 1810. It has its original and rare MK 2 iron scabbard. The blade has the even rarer 'hatchet' point. It is the second from the top.
Ian

[celtan]

Nando,

I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion".

In Spain even after the French invaded the country, there still were many "afrancesados" who actively supported Napoleon and his Brother, "Pepe Botella". There even was a Hussar Corps that continued serving the French.

After the French were defeated in the peninsula, those either fled to France or perished in the hands of the civilian irregulars. it was a bloody affair, just like everything else related to that damned war. The way I see it, basically, every one of the parties involved in same behaved abominably...

Then, similar things happened during the American Revolution, Yugoslavia, The-hundred-years-War, post-WWII France etc...

Coming to think of it, while all wars are nasty affairs, some are worse than others, specially when they have a civilan/partisan component to them.

Just ramblin' !

In fact, I still have a couple french pieces from those days.

Merry Xmas!

M




Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )

;)

I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset...

M

[fernando]

Hi Manolo

... I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion". ... Merry Xmas!...

Concerning the LEGIÃO PORTUGUESA:

It all started when Portugal decided not to agree with the Continental blockade, which would inhibit the British ships to touch continental lands, besides arresting resident British subjects and confiscate their patrimony. In view if that, the French promoted in October 1807 the Fontainebleau treaty, signed by Duroc, on behalf of Napoleon and Eugénio Isquierdo for Carlos IV of Spain, at where was decided to split Portugal in three parts. Northern Lusitania to be ruled by the King of dismantled Etrúria , the Algarves by the Spaniard Manuel Godoy and the country centre by the French.
To enforce this, Napoleon sent to Lisbon an army of 20000 men, commanded by Junot.
Meanwhile the Portuguese prince regent, later King Dom João VI, adviced by the British, escaped to Brazil, accompanied by all his court, some troops and all possible wealth, being escorted by a British fleet.
His mediocre behaviour included the advice to the people he left behind to receive the French as being their friends.
This way the first regiments of Junot army arrived in Lisbon all ragged, disarmed and exausted by starve, caused by the violent march, in a rush to try and catch the Portuguese prince still in Lisbon, which didn’t happen for a couple miles. The major part of the forces was still struggling to overcome the difficult routes of Beira and Estremadura. Finding no resistance by the Portuguese, Junot immediately took control of the capital and started discharging the then weak Portuguese army, sending the men home and retaining the best elements, in order to form a corpse of five to six thousand, sending them to France in groups of one thousand each, making them to swear oath to Napoleon. These guys have then being in campaign from Wagram to Moscow.
The Portuguese legion was extinguished in 1813.
The history of the formation till the extinction of this force is rather well documented in a book written by P. Boppe, of which i have a copy in French. I don’t remember why i have acquired this work, as illiterate as i am; must have been when i went through a phase of reading about the French Invasions (so called Peninsular War).




Feliz navidad to you too

Fernando

.

[celtan]

The Spanish had a similar unit under the Marques de La Romana, serving in Denmark. They were auppossed to be used in the invasion of Sweden under... Marcellin Marbot?

Instead, after Spain was invaded by her former ally, they turned their backs on the French and left in British ships, eventually arriving at the Peninsular theatre. Of course, the Brits would say, "serves her right", but then, Spain didn't want to get into that war at all.

Reminds me of Italy and Rumania in WWII.

All this stuff about fighting between former comrades-in-arms, and playing kissy-kissy with a previous enemy, albeit justifiably so, makes me ...queasy.

Someone once said that it's easier to write Science Fiction than Historic literature, because Sci-Fi at least needs to make sense...

Felices Navidades to y'all!

M

My German descendant of Ian's m1796

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/German%20WWII%20M1854%20Artillery%20Saber/0bb05c5a.jpg

[fernando]

Hi Ian,

Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan :eek: ) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks.
In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results.
Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle.
I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war.
On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture.
But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword.
Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion :o .
On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations :shrug: .

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself.

I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter?

I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions.
Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart.
Ian

[celtan]

An M?

[Ian Knight]

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". :) :cool: Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". :) :cool: Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman,
I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment. :)
I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable.
They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword.
I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest?
I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does.
Ian

[fernando]

... I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword...


How in hell? :confused: :eek:

[fernando]

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s :o .

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

How in hell? :confused: :eek:

Swap Forum. :rolleyes:

Ian

[Ian Knight]

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s :o .

Fernando

.

Thanks Fernando. I'll have a good look with a magnifying glass.
Ian

[Dmitry]

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdLoAtQ_mrMC&dq=von+pivka+portuguese+army&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=gp2X3xHa3c&sig=ABBRkumjHrfxORl8HXvu7SgLVM4&hl=en&ei=vvcuS5iPNYGeswOnu7CJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Ian Knight]

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdLoAtQ_mrMC&dq=von+pivka+portuguese+army&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=gp2X3xHa3c&sig=ABBRkumjHrfxORl8HXvu7SgLVM4&hl=en&ei=vvcuS5iPNYGeswOnu7CJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Hello Dmitry,
I have many of the Osprey books but not this one. Thank you.

Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
My main interest lies with Indian weaponry but this year I have been fortunate in picking up some 18th and early 19th Cent British swords, including a 1796 H.C. Troopers sword, courtesy of Fernando as you spotted.:) This has rekindled my interest in this period which was my main area of collecting when I was a teenager ( some time ago I hasten to say). All my pieces from way back then were eventually sold in pursuit of wine, women etc., in hindsight it wasn't a bad deal :D ;) but now I'm looking to reinstate some of my old collection so always on the lookout. To be honest my tastes are quite catholic so a nice piece from any period and any culture and a user is liable to pique my interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s :o .

Fernando

.

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M




Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/web%20stuff/Zorro.jpg


Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M
Manolo/Fernando,
If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[celtan]

Hi Ian,

Compañia has the feminine genre. Regimiento is of the masculine genre.

So 4 a would be Cuarta (4th) Compañia. To that, you can add that Cia. is also an accepted abbreviation for Compañia.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Those pesky romance verbs, tenses, adverbs and genres.

(OTOH, our pronunciation is more predictable ie. men ace / menace )

: )

PD: Just think about Spanglish in NY and LA. Now you have a headache..!

Manolo/Fernando,

If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[Jim McDougall]

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/web%20stuff/Zorro.jpg




LOL!!!! :) Those pesky papparazzi's!!!! How did they get this picture of me in my sword research disguise, on the neverending quest for those elusive references !
Outstanding Manolo !, ya got me there.

I wish I could get a better photo of these markings, they really are as I showed though, the Cs and an A, the numeral 4 and below 43.

It is distinctly a British light cav 1796, and I've probably had it 30 years now, again, not available right now.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Dear Ian,

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian
I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help :shrug: .
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Dear Ian,


I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help :shrug: .
Fernando

Never mind Fernando,
Thanks for your help anyway. I guess that the markings will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. I think that the sword saw plenty of action and a long life. The blade should be 1 1/2 inches wide . In places the blade has lost nearly 1/4 inch through excessive sharpening.
Ian

[Ian Knight]

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[fernando]

Great work; well done.
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Thank you Fernando. It's very time consuming making a bespoke grip but very rewarding. This one took me two days to complete.
Ian

[katana]

Hi Ian,
nice job.....what wood did you use ?

Regards David

[celtan]

Beautiful results.

I must confess to be envious of your abilities, I have no idea how to dismount a hilt or replate silver finish...

Best

M

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely magnificent Ian!!! You have done a wonderful job at maintaining the integrity of this great old warrior!! I love the M1796 heavies!!

All the best,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much guys. I may write a illustrated list of instructions when I make my next grip.

David,
The grip was made from beech wood shaped and covered in leather. The grip was made out of two pieces. The tang is marked out on one piece and cut out to the full depth of the tang. The second piece is then glued to it.

Manolo,
Taking this sword apart was fairly easy as the leather buffer/washer was placed between the blade and hilt not just slid over the blade. I cut the old leather buffer away and was then able to push the blade backwards exposing about 2 mm of the tang. The peened over end of the tang can then be filed off allowing you to dis-assemble the sword. Hey presto.

Jim,
I have always wanted a P1796 HC sword but could never afford one. I bought this old thing at a fair price because of the grip.

Ian


Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ian,
The M1796 heavy was one of my very first swords, I think I got it in 1966, and it was/is pretty beat up. The scabbard was mismatched (as often found), the blade welded back together at center, and it was by T Craven.
I still have it, couldnt ever let it go :) In those days these things were around a hundred bucks usually if in good condition. I think I spent 50, but hey that was a lotta money then....gas was still 27cents a gallon!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Hi Ian,
The M1796 heavy was one of my very first swords, I think I got it in 1966, and it was/is pretty beat up. The scabbard was mismatched (as often found), the blade welded back together at center, and it was by T Craven.
I still have it, couldnt ever let it go :) In those days these things were around a hundred bucks usually if in good condition. I think I spent 50, but hey that was a lotta money then....gas was still 27cents a gallon!!!

All the best,
Jim

Hello Jim,
I wish that I had bought one when my interest in the Napoleonic Wars started after seeing the film 'Waterloo' back in the 70s. Now they sell at auction in the U.K. for up to £3000 (nearly $5000).
I'd like to see a picture of your P1796 HC sword please.
Ian

[Richard]

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg

[Richard]

But talking about Portugal, below is a p1796 HC officer's sword which has a "JR" cypher on the blade. I believe this is the cypher used by John of Portugal when Prince Regent from 1799 - 1816 (the cypher became JR IV after he became king). I think sword was used by a British officer in the Portugese army after it was reorganised by Beresford in 1808 at the command of Wellington and that it originally had a GR cypher which had been polished out and re-engraved "JR"

Richard

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Richard,
As you've probably read on this thread I was very fortunate in being able to purchase from Fernando the sword that was the subject of the initial post on this thread. The V mark on the guard has never been satisfactorily explained and I wondered if you have any insight as to its meaning. The sword was discovered in Portugal and has been in the possession of a Portuguese family for some considerable time although it is not possible to determine how long that may have been nor the original source.
My Regards,
Norman.

[celtan]

Thanks for answering my Q, Ian.

But then, if you file off the tang's end. How do you reassemble the grip afterwards, and keep the whole shebang together? Not Krazy-Glue, I hope!

: )


Thanks very much guys. I may write a illustrated list of instructions when I make my next grip.


Manolo,
Taking this sword apart was fairly easy as the leather buffer/washer was placed between the blade and hilt not just slid over the blade. I cut the old leather buffer away and was then able to push the blade backwards exposing about 2 mm of the tang. The peened over end of the tang can then be filed off allowing you to dis-assemble the sword. Hey presto.


Ian

[Ian Knight]

Hello Manolo,
I'm sorry my explanation wasn't very accurate. The end of the tang is not filed off, just the sides of the 'mushroom' created when the tang was originally peened over. See my very basic drawing.

Ian

[Ian Knight]

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg

Thanks Richard,
I am not 100% happy with it. When sizing and finishing the wooden part of the grip you have to make the grip slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the leather covering. I actually made the grip a little too small and so there is a slight gap between the finished grip and the backpiece.
I might make another.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).

Ian - very nice grip restoration.

Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20

Richard

* Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg



Thank you so much Richard for the input on Craven. I remember all the years I researched that sword, the 1818 date seemed odd as this appeared a much earlier sword. The references I had were the old May & Annis based ones with the directory records.
Its great to have updated references, and I know you're always researching as evidenced by the detail in the outstanding articles you present!!!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Thanks Richard,
I am not 100% happy with it. When sizing and finishing the wooden part of the grip you have to make the grip slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the leather covering. I actually made the grip a little too small and so there is a slight gap between the finished grip and the backpiece.
I might make another.
Ian


Hi Ian :) ,
could you 'double-up' on the leather covering (if glued to the existing layer)....or would you loose the detail of the grooves ?

Thanks for answering my question ....Is beech the original wood used ....or your own personal preference?

Regards David

[fernando]

Hi Richard,

All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword ...
The assumption that this sword's marks are either Spanish or Portuguese relies on the use of genre ... feminine, in the case. The 2ª for segunda and Cª for Companhia are undoubtedly the type of initials used on marks in the Peninsula,
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Hi Ian :) ,
could you 'double-up' on the leather covering (if glued to the existing layer)....or would you loose the detail of the grooves ?

Thanks for answering my question ....Is beech the original wood used ....or your own personal preference?

Regards David

Hello David,
I did think about doubling up the leather but I do think it would spoil the grooves but I suppose if I am not happy with it I could give it a try.
I believe that the wood originally used would either be beech or obeche.

Ian

[fernando]

Hi again, Richard,

But talking about Portugal, below is a p1796 HC officer's sword which has a "JR" cypher on the blade. I believe this is the cypher used by John of Portugal when Prince Regent from 1799 - 1816 (the cypher became JR IV after he became king). I think sword was used by a British officer in the Portugese army after it was reorganised by Beresford in 1808 at the command of Wellington and that it originally had a GR cypher which had been polished out and re-engraved "JR"

Richard
Nice sword you got there; with a hilt rather different from the current model, right?
Not trying to correct you, but the right cypher would be the monogram JPR for João Principe Regente.
He was indeed crowned in 1816, but as João VI, not IV. The new cypher would then be JVI ... no more R for regent.
But then if, as you say, your sword was used by a British officer, i don't see the logic in changing the British cypher into a Portuguese one. In such case the sword would have been 'donated' by the British, like thousands of them, and used by Portuguese ... or am i completely blocked :confused:
Fernando

[Richard]

Hi Fernando

Of course I bow to your knowledge of Portuguese Royal cyphers! Do you think that JR might not be Prince Regent Joao? or maybe JR is the British interpretation of what the cypher should be? The sword is not unique, I know of another exactly like it where the GR is still just visible under the new JR cypher. And of course, I am speculating that it was carried by a British officer in the army of Portugal, no-one can know for sure - but it is an officer's sword, not a trooper's sword which means it was not a government issued sword but bought by private purchase by an officer. The blade is by Runkel Sohlingen which puts the date of manufacture from 1796 to around 1800 (after 1800 the "h" was dropped from the spelling of Solingen on Runkel's blades). So it was certainly used by an officer in the British army before relocating to Portugal!

Fernando, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the hilt is not like "the current model"? Do you mean that its not like the disc hilt being discussed in this thread? If so, its because this hilt is the version for officers, sometimes called the "ladder hilt" or "first honeysuckle hilt".

Richard



Hi again, Richard,


Nice sword you got there; with a hilt rather different from the current model, right?
Not trying to correct you, but the right cypher would be the monogram JPR for João Principe Regente.
He was indeed crowned in 1816, but as João VI, not IV. The new cypher would then be JVI ... no more R for regent.
But then if, as you say, your sword was used by a British officer, i don't see the logic in changing the British cypher into a Portuguese one. In such case the sword would have been 'donated' by the British, like thousands of them, and used by Portuguese ... or am i completely blocked :confused:
Fernando

[Richard]

Hi Norman

I'm afraid I do not know what the V stamping might mean. I don't think I've ever seen it before on one of these swords, or any other British sword of the period. However, of course, it is a very well known stamp on French Napoleonic swords, often found on hilts, blades and scabbards and signifying as I recall "verifie" (checked or approved). But on a British sword ?

Richard

Hi Richard,
As you've probably read on this thread I was very fortunate in being able to purchase from Fernando the sword that was the subject of the initial post on this thread. The V mark on the guard has never been satisfactorily explained and I wondered if you have any insight as to its meaning. The sword was discovered in Portugal and has been in the possession of a Portuguese family for some considerable time although it is not possible to determine how long that may have been nor the original source.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Hi Fernando

Of course I bow to your knowledge of Portuguese Royal cyphers! Do you think that JR might not be Prince Regent Joao? or maybe JR is the British interpretation of what the cypher should be? The sword is not unique, I know of another exactly like it where the GR is still just visible under the new JR cypher. And of course, I am speculating that it was carried by a British officer in the army of Portugal, no-one can know for sure - but it is an officer's sword, not a trooper's sword which means it was not a government issued sword but bought by private purchase by an officer. The blade is by Runkel Sohlingen which puts the date of manufacture from 1796 to around 1800 (after 1800 the "h" was dropped from the spelling of Solingen on Runkel's blades). So it was certainly used by an officer in the British army before relocating to Portugal!

Fernando, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the hilt is not like "the current model"? Do you mean that its not like the disc hilt being discussed in this thread? If so, its because this hilt is the version for officers, sometimes called the "ladder hilt" or "first honeysuckle hilt".

Richard
Well, i am not such a specialist (at all), but the JPR monogram is what you massively see around, when it concerns this monarch's cypher, assuming that his contextual activity was more reflected while he was a prince, i would say.
On the other hand, the initials JR would fit to JOANNES REX, if such cypher was ever practiced, since he was later crowned as king; i am just excluding this for lack of instantly evidence, and not with final determination.
... besides, this would be a bit outdated, when it comes to weaponry potentially used during thr Peninsular war.
By the way, and still wandering about the cypher swap on the blade/s, did you know that George in portuguese is Jorge ?
Obviously this means no more than that.
Fernando

.

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting thread. I just found it, and some questions came to my my head when I read it completely . To begin with, I understood that long straight one-edged swords were used by the cavaly not because some theoretical reasons/preferences over the subject "thrust vs. slash-cut", but because they were designed to penetrate-perforate the cuirasses-protections (since cuirasses were not the only body protection) used by other heavy cavalry corps at the time, and also to make effective cuts but, am I wrong? That need would be also the reason for the appearance of more pointed and rigid (by diamond-shaping the blade) medieval swords, associated with the development of the full plate armour, according with Oakeshott. Sometimes, those long and straight cavalry blades would replace gradually the lances used also by this corps, though the lances did not dissapeared completely. That would explain also the geometry of the hatchet point, since it permits the use of the thicker back of the blade to reinforce the point and give more rigidity to the thrust against body defensive protection, especially in the case of non diamond or non rhombic shaped blades (under this practical light, I feel necessary to re-evaluate the Spanish cavalry sword form this period), isn´t it?

And it is also the reason why some heavy cavalry corps in oriental Europe used a long estoc carried on the saddle as a permanent complement of the curved sabres suspended routinely from their belts or, am I wrong? This last fact, of alternative but consecutive uses, would put the "thrust vs. slash-cut" dicussion on a serious metaphysical contradiction (and on a practical dilemma, for that matter: "what do I do now, perforate him...or slash him...what do I pull?") if the subject is not considered under the more practical terms of purposes related with body armour (even horse armour, in the case of oriental European cavalry fighting against the Turkish), than with wound-effectiveness. Because wound effectiveness also does not explains the fact that frequently, at the same time and in the same army, cavalry troops used a curved sabre, meanwhile infantry troops used a straight sword. Unless a slash from a horseback in more dangerous than a thrust, or a thrust on foot more dangerous than on horseback. Though the curved sabres does not impede thrusts, and straight swords does not impede slashing cuts, and I recall one cavalry very old excersice of thrusting rings suspended from a fixed points (did I see to many Hollywood movies?). And worst yet, that does not explains the fact that some cavalry corps used straight swords, meanwhile other corps in the same army used curved sabres....I feel confussed....:rolleyes:

I always thought that the problem of wound effectivenes was seriously considered in the design of sword blades, but I believed it was not the only one, and that the adoption of specific geometries obeyed to more complex and less....theoretical reasons, but I can be mistaken.

I don´t know for sure if this ideas are wrong, so please illuminate me, as I understand that the gradual dissapearance of those long and heavy straight swords is related with the dissapearance of all body protection in the cavalry corps, though not in a linear form, since traditions or preferences related with the tastes of those who decide over the official models (and, as we have seen, they are not always versed on the needs of the field), or the latter irrelevancy in the use of the edged weapons in combat, but for the bayonets, explains the survival of straight swords on the late 19th Centrury-early 20th Century cavalry corps, and the progressively lesser curvature of the sabres. Am I too simplistic or misinformed? :rolleyes:
Thank you for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fernando]

BTW, Norman, Ian, Richard and all.
I am sure you have this listing on British Regimental markings on swords, but just in case :o .
Fernando

.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the info.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Richard]

Fernando

Yes I know that listing - I compiled it! It is not comprehensive, just marks I had noted from personal observation

Richard

BTW, Norman, Ian, Richard and all.
I am sure you have this listing on British Regimental markings on swords, but just in case :o .
Fernando

.

[celtan]

Wowie! Nice to have you here.

: )

BTW: There was a strange english short sword from the mid 19th C that we were discussing a couple months ago, would you mind taking a look at the thread?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10937

Best regards

Manolo


Fernando

Yes I know that listing - I compiled it! It is not comprehensive, just marks I had noted from personal observation

Richard

[Ian Knight]

Fernando

Yes I know that listing - I compiled it! It is not comprehensive, just marks I had noted from personal observation

Richard

:D
Thanks Fernando/Richard.

Ian

[Richard]

Hi Manolo

Well, its an interesting sword, not a British regulation pattern that I've ever come across, so I'm afraid I can't help much (or actually at all!). It looks ceremonial to me, that's about it I'm afraid

Richard

Wowie! Nice to have you here.

: )

BTW: There was a strange english short sword from the mid 19th C that we were discussing a couple months ago, would you mind taking a look at the thread?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10937

Best regards

Manolo