War Shillelagh

[Queequeg]

The word "shillelagh" makes me think of a knob-handled cane which can double as a fighting stick. Generally something of this size- not very large or thick:

http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/AEmblem/2Pic/PCManField.jpg

However, ever since "Gangs of New York" came out, I've been fascinated with the enormous shillelagh carried by William "Monk" McGinn.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh1.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh2.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh3.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh6.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh5.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh7.jpg

I'm making the assumption that it's actually a shillelagh instead of just a club, since Monk was from Ireland and had already had the thing long enough to tally 40 kill-notches in the handle. I guess I'd call this a "war shillelagh" since it obviously couldn't double as a walking stick.

Monk also has a lanyard that he wraps around his wrist. Given the weight of a shillelagh this large and heavy, however, the lanyard is understandable. It also looks like he had the end painted, perhaps with tar or pitch. Dipping the head in hot tar would certainly seal any cracks and enhance its durability.

So, has anyone here ever seen or heard of a shillelagh that big? Or is this just strictly the idea of the movie prop makers?

[Berkley]

Your first picture is a blackthorn stick or bata. The movie weapon is a cudgel or Sail-Éille used in Bataireacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_stick_fighting).

[Queequeg]

If I google "Sail-Éille", I get sites that say a Sail-Éille is a shillelagh. :shrug:

This site (http://johnwhurley.com/shillelagh.htm) says that a bata mór or tríú is a 4-footer, used with two hands.

In any event, were cudgels like this used, or is this simply a film prop? If they were, does anyone have examples?

[David]

If I google "Sail-Éille", I get sites that say a Sail-Éille is a shillelagh. :shrug:

This site (http://johnwhurley.com/shillelagh.htm) says that a bata mór or tríú is a 4-footer, used with two hands.

In any event, were cudgels like this used, or is this simply a film prop? If they were, does anyone have examples?
If you click on "images" when you google shillelagh you can find many images in many diferent sizes. It seems that a lot of them have either lanyards or a hole in the same area where a lanyard could be placed.
http://images.google.com/images?ndsp=21&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=shillelagh&start=0&sa=N

[Jim McDougall]

What a fascinating, and extremely esoteric topic Queequeq!!!
From what I can understand, the original 'sail elle' (phonetically shillelagh, shill ay lee) was literally, a cudgel with a strap. The term 'bata' was applied in Irish to 'stick', thus the term 'bataireacht' described the martial art used by the Irish in the trained use of this simple, but most effective weapon.

It appears that the use of these extends into antiquity but by the 18th century had become keenly associated with a form of ganglike warfare with groups known as factions. This led to extremely negative perceptions of the Irish culture and the much maligned connotation of these weapons. The subject of the fascinating, but gruesome movie "The Gangs of New York", colorfully portrays this phenomenon, which was certainly widespead in other nationalities and cultures as well, but here focused on the 19th century in New York.

The most common wood seems to have oak used in these, and they were apparantly cured and hardened with smeared butter in chimneys, though with increased trade bringing in more exotic hardwoods from tropical regions, other woods were used also. With the martial intent of these, many were 'loaded' in hollowed section of the business end with lead. Perhaps this might have been the intended image of the very formidable weapon used by 'Monk' in the movie.I'm not sure if pitch or such substance would secure this hollowed and filled feature, but it does seem implied.

It does not seem there were specific sizes, and as these were quite personally fashioned weapons, it would most likely have been a matter of preference.

The notching shown in the movie weapon for 'kills' is most probably related to this dynamic used in literature and romanticized licence. It has long been popularly held that in the American frontier's 'wild west' that gunfighters would place notches in the handles of thier guns for each victory. In considerable research, it seems that this practice is yet another of the myths perpetrated by storytelling writers, and of the actual weapons of these individuals, none are known to carry notches. It is however noted that Bat Masterson once deliberately did this to a revolver sold to a souvenier hunter.
This 'notching' is another interesting topic that has been discussed on our forums previously, and was really pretty interesting.

From an anthropological point of view, what strikes me as really interesting is the convergent development of the simple club and its varying forms as a weapon. For one example, the shillelagh seems very similar to the 'knobkerry' of Zulu and associated tribes in South Africa. While in most cultures, the familiar 'club' used from mans earliest times was supplanted by many other weapon forms, but in these, it developed into these forms and prevailed.

All best regards,
Jim

[Berkley]

... the shillelagh seems very similar to the 'knobkerry' of Zulu and associated tribes in South Africa. While in most cultures, the familiar 'club' used from mans earliest times was supplanted by many other weapon forms, but in these, it developed into these forms and prevailed. Sincere apologies for the injection of what may seem a political statement, but it struck me that in both cases the seemingly anachronistic spread of a neolithic weapon in relatively recent times appears to have a causal relationship to the strict arms control policies of the colonial power (England). One cannot help but muse whether that same power's current domestic arms control policies with respect to edged weapons may not lead to a similar proliferation of anachronistic arms. (2010 London Times headline: "Growing incidence of cudgel crime alarms authorities"
;) .

[Jim McDougall]

Sincere apologies for the injection of what may seem a political statement, but it struck me that in both cases the seemingly anachronistic spread of a neolithic weapon in relatively recent times appears to have a causal relationship to the strict arms control policies of the colonial power (England). One cannot help but muse whether that same power's current domestic arms control policies with respect to edged weapons may not lead to a similar proliferation of anachronistic arms. (2010 London Times headline: "Growing incidence of cudgel crime alarms authorities"
;) .


Interesting, yes, but indeed profoundly political.....though extremely eloquently worded :) As I was writing some of the material on these weapons, I was desperately trying to suppress any politically charged overtones. While I appreciate the comments, I'd also like to keep the focus on the weapons OK.
Thanks Berkley,
All the best,
Jim

[Berkley]

Jim,
Once more, my apologies.:o Thanks for a wonderful summary of the Irish martial arts.
Berkley

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,
Once more, my apologies.:o Thanks for a wonderful summary of the Irish martial arts.
Berkley

No apologies necessary Berkley, and thank you for the kind words on my notes. I hadn't really known much on these and wanted to share what I just learned on them.

All the best,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

I think clubs have been a weapon of choise for centuries worldwide and great skills develped in there use, either one or two handed long before any colonial surpression. If you are slow with your blade a fast club will take you out just as easy. Not primitive in any way. ouch!!!

[VANDOO]

I WOULD IMAGINE DUE TO THE SCARICTY OF FOOD AMONG THE POOR IN IRELAND. THEY OFTEN USED CLUBS FOR HUNTING AS WELL AS FIGHTING. THE POOR DIDN'T OWN THE LAND AND WERE OFTEN FORBIDDEN ON PAIN OF DEATH TO HUNT OR POACH ANY GAME. SO I SUSPECT THERE WERE SMALLER HUNTING CLUBS FOR THROWING AT SMALL GAME AS WELL AS THE LARGER CLUBS. THAT HAS USUALLY BEEN THE CASE IN MANY SOCIETYS I AM MORE FAMILIAR WITH THAN IRELAND. THE ADVANTAGES WERE THERE WAS LITTLE COST AS YOU USUALLY MADE YOUR OWN, THE LORDS DIDN'T CARE IF YOU HAD THEM, AND A THROWN CLUB DIDN'T MAKE ANY NOISE WHEN YOU POACHED SMALL GAME. I SUSPECT THE MEN ALSO HAD SOME COMPETICIAN AND GAMES TO SHOW OFF THEIR SKILL AT THROWING. THIS IS ALL A GUESS AS I HAVE NOT STUDIED THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE OF IRELAND.
I GUESS THE SCOTTS WANTED TO SHOW OFF SO INSTEAD OF THROWING A WEE CLUB THEY THROW THE CABER. :D

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Tim for joining in on this, and you're right, it seems that in many a pinch, a baseball bat or pool cue surely took care of business!
BTW, it seems that the stick or cudgel often served in training soldiers in broadsword or sabre movements, seemingly in the manner of kendo in Japanese martial arts (though I realize that in the same way these developed into thier own form of martial arts beyond training exercises).

I'm glad to see you on this also Barry! our local club maven!
Absolutely well noted on the economic perspective of these times and places, and as for the Scots....when you got bopped with a caper.....you knew it!! :)
Roosevelt said it best, with a big stick, you can walk wherever and however you want!! :) or something like that.

All the best,
Jim

[Lew]

Yes clubs are quite effective and a heavy well made one can break and crush bones even if you get hit in the arms,legs or any part of the torso the are not just head bangers as many people think. Clubs come in all shapes and sizes and are really fun to collect they are one of my favorite weapons. :) Here is one that was used for personal protection by an American geologist during the 1920s-30s in Rhodesia while mining for copper.


Lew

[Jim McDougall]

Lew, you always come up with really neat weapons!!! and it seems with intriguing provenance that adds great dimension. Great visuals thinking of what must have been high adventure in those days.

Just though of another discussion not too long ago about the well known police truncheons or 'billy clubs'.

Best regards,
Jim

[RomaRana]

Just a side note. The real Monk was actually named Monk Eastman. He was a turn of the century (1900) Jewish gang leader on the Lower East Side.

[David]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_Eastman

[Jim McDougall]

Just a side note. The real Monk was actually named Monk Eastman. He was a turn of the century (1900) Jewish gang leader on the Lower East Side.


Now THAT'S interesting!! and wonder if he got the idea of notching the club from the dime novel boys writing on gunfighters, or if the idea was his own form of psychological warfare.
Along these lines comes to mind Buford Pusser, the southern sheriff in "Walking Tall".

Best regards,
Jim

[RomaRana]

I don't have my books with me and I might be slightly off on the details, but the story behind Monk's notches was that he was a Sherriff (bouncer) in a wild bar in his younger days. Every time he whacked somebody and threw them out of the bar he put a notch on his club.

When he reached 39 marks he clubbed a random person to make it an even 40.

edit to add,

Just looked at the wiki link it was for a even fifty.

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice subject guys and with great historical relevance.

I'd like to offer a few points from my experience thus far.

It also looks like he had the end painted, perhaps with tar or pitch. Dipping the head in hot tar would certainly seal any cracks and enhance its durability.

So, has anyone here ever seen or heard of a shillelagh that big? Or is this just strictly the idea of the movie prop makers?

With comparison to the images below that I have supplied from my small collection of walking sticks and with Monk being a true Irish man I would in the first instance think that his Shillelagh would be made from Irish Black thorn.

This is some text I have gathered from other sources;

Irish Blackthorn;

"These time-honoured, one-piece Blackthorn Shillelaghs are selected and cut from dense thickets sourced from the forests of Ireland.

Blackthorn: Prunus spinosa, is a relative of cherries and plums. Sloe, the blue-black fruits are edible, but bitter until after the first frost. The name for the blackthorn in Ogham, a language used by the Druids, is straif, the origin of the word "strife" and is about Conflict."

As seen in my images below, the bark is also present on the root ball head in places. Looking at the initial images supplied of Monk by Queequeg, I too can see bark present on the root ball head. I would say that he is using a very large piece of blackthorn root-ball and trunk and the handle where the notches are, has been stripped of bark and is consistent with the colour presented on mine where time and use has worn away the bark. The full consistent colour of the head of Monk's is due to lacquer that is also present on some parts of mine.

As mine is a daily user along side the hounds when I walk them, I know a single blow from one of these could drop a man for good and I have tested it on inanamate objects with devistating effect, so it is no surprise that Monk had 50 notches on his.

The one I have pictured is approx 100 years old.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Thats some intriguing history Gav, I didnt know that about the term for the wood used and its association with the use of the shillelagh.
All this talk about these has just reminded me that my wife is intensely of Irish ancestry.....oh oh!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Lew]

I don't have my books with me and I might be slightly off on the details, but the story behind Monk's notches was that he was a Sherriff (bouncer) in a wild bar in his younger days. Every time he whacked somebody and threw them out of the bar he put a notch on his club.

When he reached 39 marks he clubbed a random person to make it an even 40.

edit to add,

Just looked at the wiki link it was for a even fifty.

Now that is very interesting a Jewish gangster with a big shtick. ;) :rolleyes:

[Gavin Nugent]

Thats some intriguing history Gav, I didnt know that about the term for the wood used and its association with the use of the shillelagh.
All this talk about these has just reminded me that my wife is intensely of Irish ancestry.....oh oh!! :)

All the best,
Jim

Best be careful Jim, she may now want one to keep you in line :p :)

Gav

[David]

With comparison to the images below that I have supplied from my small collection of walking sticks and with Monk being a true Irish man I would in the first instance think that his Shillelagh would be made from Irish Black thorn.

Ah, but was Monk really a "true Irish man"? It does seem fairly obvious that his character was based on Monk Eastman (Osterman), a Jew from Brooklyn who often used the name Delaney, probably to earn himself creds with other Irish gang members. So possibly the movie character Monk McGinn is just playing at being Irish. :shrug:
Also if the shillelagh was made in the States it seems far more likely that it wood be made of local wood instead of imported Irish Black Thorn. As for the movie prop itself i haven't a clue, though i am not so sure that they would have gone out of their way to create a prop specifically made of Black Thorn since very, very few viewers would give it a second thought. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Right you are Gav!! and frankly I'm glad they dont use 'rolling pins' anymore, remember the old cartoon cliche', I think the strip was "Andy Capp" or something like that, where the frustrated wife always bopped the unwary husband with her 'tool of the trade'. I guess she baked a lot.

Good points David, and the fact that this movie character was based on a figure completely outside the Irish gangs and of later period clearly shows the licence used by film directors to gain aesthetic effect.

I have really enjoyed looking into the authenticity of certain weapons often portrayed in some movies over the years. One that I recall was the unusual 'gunstock' club used by Russell Means as the warrior Chingachgook in "The Last of the Mohicans". I recall being intrigued by the stunning blue color of this odd boomerang looking thing with dagger blade protruding. I went berserk as usual with research :) and ended up talking with the guy who actually made the weapons for the movie, if I recall he made three, and somewhere in 'the archives' are photos he sent. In speaking with arms authority Norm Flayderman, he noted these were of course, not made from gunstocks, just colloquially called that, and they were used mostly by Plains tribes rather than woodland.
Just the same, the weapon chosen seems to have lent well to the movie.

If I may, one more example;
In "Sleepy Hollow" the 'Headless Horseman' played by Christopher Walken uses a terrifying looking sword that is purely fantasy. I looked deeply into history of the Hessian troops that were in upstate New York during the Revolutionary War, and these troops of the cavalry units from Germany were inadvertantly not mounted. Thier horses had been left behind, though they did carry, in some degree, the huge cavalry swords of the period, brass hilts with odd birdhead pommels and long straight blades. They were so long and cumbersome, and virtually useless fighting dismounted.
But the one in the movie, and used on horseback with a wild stallion....frightening!!!

As they always say...hooray for Hollywood!

All the best,
Jim

[RomaRana]

When Martin Scorsese was converting Herbert Asbury’s non fiction book, The Gangs of New York, to a movie he liked the story of Monk Eastman so much that he simply co-opted much of the character and made him Irish to fit the story.

Also, if you read the book the weapons of choice seem to be brickbats and iron pipes rolled up in newspapers for concealment (Manhattan ethonographic weapon?). I guess it was hard to walk around with a club during any historical period in NYC.

Another side note, the character Bill the Butcher in the movie is the real deal. I have tracked him down at the NYC Municipal archives and in the NYPL Social Sciences Library. I even found an insurance map of his butcher shop in the Bowery.

[graeme gt]

This is very similar .

[Queequeg]

Graeme, that's a nice one!! Do you own it? Any chance of some more pictures, perhaps in hand?

[graeme gt]

Yes its mine will take some more snaps .

[Queequeg]

I'm looking forward to these photos. Where did you get it? Any history you can share with us?

[graeme gt]

No history im afraid got it from antique dealer who knows i collect clubs .

[Tim Simmons]

Very scary man, with a white van? please dont hurt me :eek: :eek:

[Lew]

graeme gt

I was getting a stiff neck so here you go.

Btw

Nice club :) :eek:


Lew

[M ELEY]

Wow! :eek: That is an incredible club! Very similar to the one from the movie that started this conversation. Forgive me, for I am a novice in this area of collecting, but are these made from the root bulb of the tree? The reason I ask is that I understand that some tribal people did this (as did native Americans, who would use rhododendren root). It looks like this last one might have had root tendrils or something, judging from its surface. Going out on a long limb here... :o

[graeme gt]

Hi its made from a root couldnt tell you which one tho .

[VANDOO]

TRIBAL PEOPLE OFTEN SELECTED THEIR MATERIALS FOR TOOLS AND WEAPONS FROM WHATEVER NATURE PROVIEDED THAT WORKED BEST FOR THE PURPOSE. MANY PLANTS ARE HARD AND DENSE ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD NATURAL CLUB, A PLANT WITH A GOOD HEAVY ROOT BALL WAS EASILY SHAPED. SOMETIMES THE SHAPEING BEGAN WHEN THE PLANT WAS STILL GROWING, A PLANT COULD BE BENT TO FORCE IT TO GROW IN THE SHAPE OF THE DESIRED WEAPON OR TOOL. A BAND OF STRONG MATERIAL COULD BE PLACED TIGHTLY AROUND THE TRUNK NEAR THE GROUND WHICH CAUSED THE TRUNK TO BULGE OUT AND BECOME LARGER IN DIAMETER ABOVE THE RESTRICTION.
SOMETIMES THE TRUNK WAS ACTUALLY SPLIT AND A STONE INSERTED WHICH THE PLANT WOULD GROW AND HEAL AROUND AND THEN ALL NEED BE DONE WAS CUT THE DESIRED PIECE OUT FOR A STONE HEADED CLUB OR TOOL. SOME OF THE SHAPEING WAS ALSO DONE PURLY FOR THE ARTISTIC APPEAL AS LINES AND RIDGES AND TWISTED CORKSCREW TYPE SHAFTS COULD ALSO BE MADE USING VARIOUS LIVING SHAPEING TECKNIQUES.

QUITE A NICE BASHER YOU HAVE THERE IT IS A BEAUT!!
THESE BURLS USUALLY HAVE VERY INTERESTING AND OFTEN BEAUTIFUL GRAIN PATTERNS KIND OF LIKE MOTHER NATURES ORGANIC WOODEN VERSION OF WOOTZ :) THIS WOOTZ IS APPRECIATED BY ALL WOODWORKERS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO LOVE A NICE BRIAR PIPE.

[M ELEY]

Excellent information on the 'harvesting' of clubs, Barry. I knew I wasn't going crazy when I had heard of ground roots. I had never heard of the insertion of stones to allow the plant to grow over it. Pretty amazing! Now I'm beginning to want to collect clubs again! (sold my Soloman Islands piece awhile back). Great thread!

[fearn]

Hi All,

I agree that root burls (that's the proper term) can make great club heads. In fact, I've got one sitting in a garage for that some-day project.

That said, not every club head is a burl, and I'll tell you how to tell the difference in a second.

Many shillelaghs actually aren't made from a root burl. Rather, the crafter starts with a tree or shrub (traditionally blackthorn, a type of plum). He selects a trunk or major branch that has many straight, smaller shoots coming off of it. He then cuts the trunk into short sections around the branch, so that the straight shoot becomes the handle of the shillelagh, and the trunk becomes the head. He then carves the head into shape.

The way you tell how it's made is to look at the grain on the head. Burls typically have a confused grain. It looks like random damascus. Trunks have the concentric, circular grain. As an example of a head carved from a trunk, here's a knobkerrie that Louie posted earlier (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8843&highlight=knobkerrie)

Anyway, I admire shillelaghs, and perhaps I'll get one someday. My only problem with them is that they're supposed to be less obvious weapons (the farmer's evening walking stick, really). These days, no one carries a walking stick for walking, so I'd be less obvious if I was walking with a golf club than if I was carrying me blackthorn. If less classy.

Best,

F

[katana]

I have been saving this project for a while. After having to remove several branches from my Ash tree .....I cut and saved several branches to make either axe hafts or a club / knobkerrie. Left to season for 3 years it is now ready to 'work'. I like the idea of 'experimental' archeology.....inspired by this thread and the sunshine (yes, we do get the sun in Britain ....sometimes :p ) I decided to make a 'start' ....determined to use hand tools ...I have used the hand axe to cut and 'rough shape' the club. Its a little big at the moment ....feels great as a 'two hander'....but want to gradually improve / remove wood so as to get the correct balance etc.

If anyone is interested I will post as work continues....I am hoping that I will acquire an insight in the design, manufacture and use of such weapons.

Regards David

PS ....As to size...each paving slab is 18 inches (46cms) square

[colin henshaw]

Great stuff David. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. You may be interested in this description of the making of a Masai knobkerrie

Regards

[katana]

Thanks Colin :cool: ,
excellent stuff, much appreciated........ would you mind posting the next page.....my traditional Same is 'scabbard-less' ....and just as I got 'distracted' by the description of making the scabbard ....I realised it was incomplete :( ( ;) ) Thank you

Kind Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Here is the next page David.

Best regards
Colin

[katana]

Thank you very much Colin :)

Regards David

[fearn]

Neat stuff, Colin and David. What is the title of that book.

Best,

F

[colin henshaw]

The name of the book is "Barefoot over the Serengeti" by David Read

[Tim Simmons]

Here is another East African example.

[katana]

Hi
had some time to continue the 'club'...not quite finished, but I have learnt alot.
Some observations I have noted.... the branch dictates the size and shape of the finished head/knob due to the structural grain pattern of the wood. If you ignore the grain you would seriously weaken the finished article.

The initial shaping is relatively easy and quick ....so if a club/knobkerrie was needed in a 'hurry' ...a reasonably functional piece could be made. However, the 'fine' tuning and a good finish takes some time.

I worked on the premise that the head should be worked first ....as this would determine the length and thickness of the handle (the handle was, at first, deliberately left too long / too thick ..as it is relatively easy to cut shorter and thin it, as required to give balance/useable length)

Using heat I was able to scorch / draw natural oils to the surface which improves the hardness. Treatment not done to the handle ...as a natural flex would probably absorb the impact 'blow' better.

I have quickly tested this on my very large anvil....gradually increasing the power of the impact and assessing the damage to the club head each time..two handed with a lot of force ....NO DAMAGE..... I am stunned by how lethal a blow to the head this club could deliver. Admittedly this club is larger than the usual knobkerrie ( forced by nature ..size determined due to the grain of the wood).

Handle is at present too long....great for two handed 'operation' but needs to be shortened for effective one handed use.

The dynamics of 'balance' also raise a few questions..... if the handle end was weighted ....the 'head size' could be increased and still be 'controllable' and would 'pack more of a punch'. If that weight was a metal 'spiked pommel' you would add another dimension to its use in close quarter fighting (much like a sword pommel sometimes used to strike an opponent during the melee)
Are there any examples of clubs/knobkerries with this addition ?

Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Hi David

Interesting to see how your club is coming along. As far as I know, the concept of a weapon with a striking surface at one end and another striking or stabbing function at the other end, has not really developed and shown to be practical. Given the tens of thousand of years mankind has been inventing weapons, I suppose this means the concept has been tried and discarded.

The only possible examples I can think of are the Indian double-bladed dagger "haladie" and a rifle with a bayonet - the stock could be used also as a club "in extremis", although there must be others...

Regards.

[katana]

Hi David

Interesting to see how your club is coming along. As far as I know, the concept of a weapon with a striking surface at one end and another striking or stabbing function at the other end, has not really developed and shown to be practical. Given the tens of thousand of years mankind has been inventing weapons, I suppose this means the concept has been tried and discarded.

Regards.

Hi Colin,
thanks for the reply. A few years ago I saw an 'offset' knobkerrie with a spike set in the handle end. The short spike was around 3" long (exposed) from the leather covered 'handle'. Never got to handle it...and only seen from a distance. I assumed that a short spear butt had been added to the knobkerrie....whether originally or added later. I have heard of situations whereby weapons...African or otherwise were altered / changed (seemed more prevalent in the Victorian era ....perhaps 'their' love of 'fantasy' and the 'exotic' , fuelled these conversions :shrug: )

My main question was the idea of counter-balancing the 'head' of the knobkerrie with a metal 'pommel'. Helping to balance a 'larger' head on a longer shaft would possibly make the 'function' more efficient. ie one aimed strike would be sufficent to dispatch your foe as the weight, length (increased speed / leverage) would generate much more 'impact energy' :eek: Longer shafted knobkerries have a smaller head ....and some accounts from the Zulu Wars suggest that a number of strikes were required ....unless an accurate strike to the head had occurred.

Perhaps, the use of the knobkerrie in battle does not require improvements in its design. The Zulu are reported as carrying a shield, spear and knobkerrie....perhaps the techniques / tactics used, meant that design of the knobkerrie was more than adequate.

Kind Regards David

[colin henshaw]

I've just had a look at the Pitt-Rivers Museum "Arms & Armour Virtual Gallery" website, and it has a picture of a South American club "Macana", that features a counter-weight at the butt end of the club, in the manner you were thinking of.

Perhaps you could experiment with the club you are making by attaching a temporary weight to the handle end ?

Of course, clubs/knobkerries were used in different ways - the Masai threw theirs at the enemy before a massed spear charge, but the Zulus tended to hold on to their clubs for hand to hand combat. Also some clubs would be for purely display/element of costume. The Zulus also had a knobkerrie with an enormous head that was used for the execution of condemned individuals.

There is also a huge range of clubs to be found in the Pacific and Australasia.
Some of the Fiji clubs would require warriors of great strength to wield them.

Best regards
Colin

[Tim Simmons]

There is this type of spiked club from South Sudan. Also one similar with a leaf shaped spear blade instead of the spike. They are short clubs so even with a big ball I think easily used in one hand and much like double pointed fighting sticks. pic from "C, Spring. African arms and armour"

[fearn]

Hi David,

Neat club. One technique I ran across, but haven't tried yet, is using an iron bar to systematically harden the surface of a quarterstaff. Perhaps you can do something similar with the club head and the anvil...

As for a spike on the butt end, as we know, it's pretty common on knives and some swords, and there are wooden stabbing knives (single and double ended). I suspect that the problem with putting a spike on the end of a long club is that the centrifugal force of swinging the handle will tend to pull your hand down over the spike and off the end. Ideally, you'd want the shaft to flare before narrowing down to a spike, so that you could grip the club and swing full force, without your hands slipping.

That said, there is something to be said for having a fighting point on the back end, because it would be good for close-quarter fighting.

As for short clubs, the Mojave tribe had short clubs with spikes on the handle, so I'm not surprised that the Sudanese were doing something similar.

Fun stuff!

F

[Queequeg]

Inspired by Katana's work, I felt compelled to make one just for myself. So, I took a good piece of maple heartwood and went for an antiqued and distressed look.

Full shot. It's about 30" overall:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh1.jpg

Part of the head is real burlwood:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh3.jpg

In hand:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh4.jpg

Some antiquing/distressing. You can see the scratches filled in with patination, but there are also some dents which I made but I can't get in the photo:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh11.jpg

I stretched wet calfskin and tied it into a knot to secure the rawhide lanyard, then antiqued all of it:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh5.jpg

Full shot against my white birch:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh10.jpg

Closer shot:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/PandayShillelagh9.jpg

I used all of my antiquing tricks on this. So, here's a question for you antique weapons experts: how authentic does the antiquing look?

If I were unscrupulous enough to put this on ebay and say it was 100 years old (not that I plan on doing so!), would it pass?

[fearn]

Hi Queequeg,

Nice work, and a nice club. It's actually hard to answer your question, because it's already in context as a modern club, and that biases the way I look at it. That said, it doesn't look one hundred years old to me, but you could probably pass it off as such if you really wanted.

F

[Queequeg]

Thanks, Fearn.

I'm finding out that making something look rustic and old is actually fairly difficult- it's just too easy to overdo or under-do it. Also during distressing you have to purposely achieve a randomness about it or your process will fall into a pattern which a discerning eye will easily see.

[kronckew]

holy resurrection,batman!

found this looking for something else ;) thought it needed a bump.

adding my 24in. shilleghlegh below for interest. below that is a 'new' (to me) 19c vinewood one i just recv'd, 648 grams, 91 cm. brass ferrule on the ground end. rather unusual deep 3d wood 'grain'. very smooth polish. up the chimney & buttered?

[Andi]

Here is a piece from the North German Younger Neolithics found 2003 in the bog Bernumerfehn near the city of Aurich in Lower-Saxony, Germany. The piece was 14C dated to ca 2700 B.C. Made of yew wood, length of 685 mm, diameter of the head 85, length of the head 97 mm. A really beautyful piece which shows a contemporary repaired handle which started to split from the end. It was repaired with a strip of leather.

[kronckew]

i'm having a half sized galloglass sparth axe made with a yew haft. it's going to be a good looker.