Tatar saber for discussion

[Perkun]

It is not often one has a chance to discuss Tatar wepons. Here is an example of a 17th c. Tatar (or Polish-Tatar as some texts would call it) saber I was recently fortunate to find.
Perhaps Wolviex will be so kind and help to narrow the age range.

[Jacob]

Is that sharkskin on the hilt?

[Perkun]

Yes. Held up very well too!

[Jim McDougall]

This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips.

These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece?
Thank you so much for posting it!!!! :)
All the best
Jim

[ham]

As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts?

Sincerely,

Ham

[Perkun]

Jim,
I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me.

You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later).
I still cannot beleive my luck.
Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

[Perkun]

Ham,
There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

[Perkun]

I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars

[Jim McDougall]

Perkun,
Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English).
In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard.

The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it?
I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings.

You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues.

All the best,
Jim

[Conogre]

A wonderful find.....congratulations!
I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter.
Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back.
Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere.
Mike

[Perkun]

Jim,
I found the Tamgas on the net:
www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html (http://www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html)

The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families";
I assume the plates are form this particular work.

I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment... :o

[Rivkin]

I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

[Perkun]

Rivkin,
I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas.
I attach additional pics.
I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle.
I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it.

[Battara]

Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals).

Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

[wolviex]

Hi Perkun!

This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others! :eek:

I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre - :eek: :) :D

All the best as ever!

[Jim McDougall]

Perkun,
Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings.

In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication.

The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades.
It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins.
Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!:), we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'.

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Perkun,

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Jim

I hope this is considered relevant, but, I recently read this in "Islamic Swords and Sworgsmlths" by Dr Unsal Yucel on Page 57 while describing Umayyad and Abbasaid Swords
'The majority of these swords have somewhere between one to seven gold-filled holes, generally located on either side of the inscription and sometimes at the tip. These golded filled holes were made by riveting a piece of gold into a hole in the blade. They are usually level with the surface of the blade and approximately 5mm in diameter. It is thought that the purpose of these gold rivets was to bring good luck to the swordman'

All the best.
Jeff

[tom hyle]

This type of mark seems to be common, almost worldwide; it is common on medieval European knives (not so much swords), often in silver, copper, etc. I believe in Europe it was usually soldered in place, with peining being optional. Also seen on medieval European knives were grooves filled with contasting metal wire. I have no established meaning, but it's common; seen in China, SE Asia, India, Europe, and in a thread on a spear we just saw, N Africa (?) Some variability from culture to culture as to size, number, placement, affixing method, and even shape, but a widespread interesting phenomenon.
What is the relation between that "step" in the back and the crosshatched part of the spine? Is it hatched out to that? Then what happens?

[Perkun]

Thank you everyone for such wonderful insightful responses.
Jeff, applying KISS method :) (which I really like) is the best policy and in this light your observation and interpretation seems most plausable to me.
As a matter of fact it was exactly in this fashion ("a gold filled hole") that this mark was described to me by my friend who personally examined the saber.
Tom,
Not yet having the chance to examine the sword in person I cannot answer if the cross hatching on the spine is a form of decoration or a sign of mechanical abuse. The "step" (or a double step as it is repeated at the point of the blade forming a "cut out" in the middle of it) is a common feature on Polish sabers and the book by Jacek Gutkowski cited above shows a couple of examples of Tatar sabers with this feature.
As to the spine markings if we rule out tamgas then a possibility of them being an Armenian maker's marks should be examined, perhaps it represents the letter "h".

[RSWORD]

A georgeous sword that you have posted and quite rare indeed. I cannot add too much to the discussion but do have an example that Jose has kindly referred to and will be glad to post pictures for comparison purposes and hopefully additional education.

In regards to dating, Gutowski in his book "Bron' I Uzbrojenie Tatarow" makes an argument that one can date these sabers by the crossguard size. Later examples seem to show the Caucasian influences and have become very short compared to earlier examples. Generally, examples with the short crossguards can be dated to the late 17th to turn of 18th century. It will be interesting on Perkuns example once he has it in hand to find out if the blade is an imported. Most often, blades were imported and the profile of Perkuns example is that of Shamshir form and may be an imported Persian or Ottoman example and could be watered. My example has an archetypal blade form and really shows how the early Eurasian blade profiles lasted well into the 17th century.

I agree with Jim that neither mark on your sword is a Tamga sign. The "S" shape on the spine is very similar to marks on my sword blade. Mine are found at the top of the blade on both sides just below the spine. My example has 21 of these marks down each side of the blade. If one looks closely, in example 68 in Gutowski's book, that blade has a similar "S" shape marking along the top of the blade near the spine. I believe all the crosshatching on the spine of your blade contained many of these "S" shape marks but it looks as though many have worn away over the years. I do not know what these marks could represent as the example in the book looks to be a Persian imported blade, yours is undetermined as of yet, and my example seems to be of Lvov manufacture.

Gutowski mentions as Jim referenced that only one Tatar sword is known with a Tatar Tamga mark and in that example it is inlaid on the scabbard. My example has the Tamga mark done in silver inlayed on the blade and appears to be the same mark as the example referenced by Jim which is currently in the Polish army musuem. I would be most interested if any of Rivkins resources can identify the family or clan of this particular mark.

A fascinating discussion and I hope to learn more about Tamga marks on my sword and I look forward to Perkun getting his example in hand to learn more about his blade.

Rascalfully yours,

Rick

[Perkun]

I am just drooling all over my key board......
Will write something coherent later.

[Rivkin]

Fugh, I'm not an expert on turkology, so it can all be bs, but:

AFAIK tamga is usually just a signature. Turkish writing evolved from hieroglaphic to alphabet based, and so did the tamgas. There are 3 types of tamgas - consisting of one symbol (Type I). Usually these are the old ones, correspond to pictogramms or hieroglyphs. Very often have a totemic (or animistic) symbolism.Type II - tamgas consisting of two symbols that are symmetric or anti-symmetric to each other. These tamgas usually have to be understood as a combination of individual characters forming a word (with some of the vowels, especially initial vowels omitted). Why turks specifically liked symmetric writings (like swastika - two letters "a") I don't think anyone knows. The third type is tamgas composed of completely different letters, again these are already writing using an alphabet.

Concerning the first sword - these symbols can be tamga, or they can be not, I don't know. However in turkish alphabet this lazy n is usually "t" (however sometimes m or if looked from a different agnle -o and dz can be written quite similarly). Example - attached is an example from Karachai (turkish tribe from northern Caucasus).

Conerning the second sword - that's a classical tamga, probably modified Type II (symmetric with respect to one axis, anti-symmetric with respect to another). The letters involved seem to be "a or ae" and "n".

I'm not an expert in tatar to know which word exactly they coded like this...
Concerning family names - nothing comes up immediately, unfortunately because the letters are very popular ones, there are dozens of tamgas that use at least one of these letters + something else - for example a circassian tamga on the second picture, but did not yet find something exactly like this.

[Rivkin]

Another lazy n (this time it's "m" ?). From the writings of ancient bulgars.

And one more thing - eastern turks (I guess our tatars ?) write from right to left. Western (bulgars etc.) from left to right.

[Jim McDougall]

Kirill,
Thanks very much for this excellent data on tamgas! Since these typically dont occur very often on the swords from these regions, this has not been a hot topic in research for some time (the research my material is from dates from over 8 years ago!!). Its great to have the topic reopened, especially with these fantastic examples. Excellent input!
All the best,
Jim

[M.carter]

I hope this is considered relevant, but, I recently read this in "Islamic Swords and Sworgsmlths" by Dr Unsal Yucel on Page 57 while describing Umayyad and Abbasaid Swords
'The majority of these swords have somewhere between one to seven gold-filled holes, generally located on either side of the inscription and sometimes at the tip. These golded filled holes were made by riveting a piece of gold into a hole in the blade. They are usually level with the surface of the blade and approximately 5mm in diameter. It is thought that the purpose of these gold rivets was to bring good luck to the swordman'

All the best.
Jeff

Hey, thats an interesting note Jeff, I too noticed this thing with the gold rivets. Could there or is there a relation between those 8th century swords, and this saber (in relation with the gold spot)?

[Jeff D]

Hey, thats an interesting note Jeff, I too noticed this thing with the gold rivets. Could there or is there a relation between those 8th century swords, and this saber (in relation with the gold spot)?

Hi Mike,

I actually bought this book because of your recommendation in a past thread. I am enjoying it very much!!! Thank you. We will see as these side discussions are often very illuminating.

All the Best,
Jeff

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

I didn't want to say anything until I was sure I could find this one in storage. Tatar saber with Persian blade.

Enjoy.
Jeff

[Perkun]

Jeff,
What a surprise! Could you tell me more about it, age, region? What is the scabbard covered with?

[Jeff D]

Jeff,
What a surprise! Could you tell me more about it, age, region? What is the scabbard covered with?

Hi Perkun,

It has a similar story as yours. Most likely made in Lvov 18th century. The blade is clearly Persian with a very nice wootz pattern. The scabbard is wood with a later leather recover. the mountings are brass.

This is definately one of my favorites!
Jeff

[Jeff D]

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff

[Battara]

Ok...now I'm getting interested in Tatar swords (not just the sauce :D ). One more area to collect....*sigh* :(

[ariel]

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff
"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

[Jeff D]

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.


Thank you Ariel,

Gutowski's book is indeed excellent. It does give a nice outline on the Tatar history, however I wonder if there is any publications with a little more detail.

Thanks again
Jeff

[Rivkin]

1. Thank you Jim for your kind words, but my contribution was rather insignificant.

2. When it comes to tatar history, while I'm pretty sure there should be some (probably polish ?) books on lithuanian and polish tatars, the whole topic is very poorly researched. The reasons in my opinion being current poverty of tatars, endless inter-tribal warfare that in the past have led to the destruction of major centers of tatar civilization, preserverance of nomadic lifestyle (extremely complicating the efforts of archeology), relative isolation from other centers of civilization, replacement of yasa by islam (in my opinion have lead to acceptance of arab/mamluk point of view on mongol/tatar history).

A good example - why there are so many hexagrams on tatar coats of arms ? The obvious answer is an islamic one - it's a seal of Solomon. Unfortunately it creates more questions than answers:

While another extremely popular symbol is an eight point star (octagramm) ? It has no specific symbolism in Islam. Why hexagrams very often appear multiple times - 3 hexgrams in Bucharin's symbolics, 4+1 in Usupov's ? Why this symbol sometimes predates what we consider an islamic period in turkish history, if not islam itself ? Sometimes it's been explained as a jewish symbol, but it does not remove the main problem, which is that besides speculations we know very little.

[erlikhan]

Rivkin, as far as i know,tamgas are primarily to show ownership of a land, building, cattles,sheep, horses anything. was used to understand to whom or which tribe anything belonged in nomadic life's enormous distances and continuously changing settlement locations . tamga - damga means "stamp" in Turkish and first purpose was to sign animals with hot iron i am sure. tamgas should be extremely important to prevent any mistakes, even potential wars. started in middle Ajian steppes and carried to everywhere Turks settled. became an identity symbol for people as well in time, and every tribe, every band, any people had own tamgas. (especially among Tatars, who continued nomadic and semi nomadic life longer than Turkey). Below is the flag of Crimean Tatars with their tamga, used when they were independent, and later autonomyous under Russian rule till 1944,the date they were expelled to other regions). Ottomans were from "Kayi" band of "Oguz" tribe, and they used the Kayi tamga as a military sign widely struck on most arms and armors officialy ordered and manufactured for the state arsenal in Istanbul. I cant find a picture of it at the moment but i think is already well known among Ottoman arms collectioners.
I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

[wolviex]

I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

To be short, I checked out Wikipedia for you, and I'll bring you some basic informations:

Lithuanian and Polish Tatars are generally the same. The latter name was spread after the 1st WW, when Lithuania and Poland became independent, separately countries. Polish Tatars (I will use nowaday term) originate from the Golden Horde and from Crimea. These were political refugees from out there, which settled in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 14th century. They were accepted by the state and become obliged for military service. Soon they were ennobled, but they have stayed with their religion (Islam), culture and traditions. In 16th and 17th centuries Tatars were mostly polonized (you must remember that Lithuania and Poland were, in general, the one country, connected with Union). Today, after the II WW there are only two Tatar's villages in Poland (they're still have Islam as main religion, as well the traditions) and they're mostly dispersed.
Some of the Tatars were lived also in Volhynia and Podolia (today Ukraine) in 17th-18th centuries.

As I said, only brief history :)
Regards

[erlikhan]

thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .

[ham]

Gentlemen,

The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore.
Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Rivkin]

though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons.

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

[Yannis]

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind :cool:

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.

[erlikhan]

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

[ham]

"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market."

Gentlemen,

Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Yannis]

I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.

I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords!

I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos.

If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks! :eek:

The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks. :D

[ariel]

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

[tom hyle]

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

[Rivkin]

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

There are some quality kindjals being made in Dagestan today, but the price is about 100$-200$ for the blade alone, so it makes no sence for them to sell it as fakes.

[Rivkin]

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all iyents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit sobebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). being cought by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.


I have to attest to this. My grandfather killed a lot of people, but he had to damp all his weapons (including some completely unique ones) into the river :(.

Additionally many sword types (court swords, anything with coat of arms etc.) were considered to be signs of nobility and the last thing anyone needed is to be a known nobleman :).

[erlikhan]

But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards

[Yannis]

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

It is fasten with the belt just for the dance. BTW this kindjal is rather new, but some of the dancers I have seen they had old good ones.

[Rivkin]

But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards


Antiquities were extremely cheap in USSR. Gvarnerius' violin costed a few hundred dollars, with Shteiner and everyone else being even way cheaper. Firstprint of Napoleon's memoirs costed 10$ (5 rubles) using official exchange rate, and 1.80$ using the one of the black market.

I would say that nowadays in Russia the prices are probably way above ebay, when it comes to swords.

[ariel]

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....
If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

[Rivkin]

Ha-ha-ha. Well, here are the statues of the city of Evanston, Illinois, USA:

"No person shall possess, in the City of Evanston, the following:
.....
(C) Any dangerous weapon as defined in Section 9-8-1(A).
....
DANGEROUS WEAPONS: (A) Bludgeon, blackjack, slingshot, sand club, sap, metal knuckles or any knife the blade of which may be opened by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, incendiary devices or any other weapon or instrument of like character.

(B) Dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun, or taser, weighted gloves, bow, arrows or any other weapon or instrument of like character. "

As you can see posession of broken glass (!!!!) is a crime down here :).

[Rick]

Not so funny what a broken beer bottle held by the neck can do . :eek:
In MA they're considered a deadly weapon under the law .
I have seen the results first hand . :(
But we digress ....

[Tim Simmons]

The peasants are revolting :eek: Garden tools have allways made good weapons. You could take somebodies head off with a good clean spade as quick as any sword. Seriously I would line up all sharp, pointed and nasty things, and tell them not to do it again :mad:

[Rivkin]

Since we are talking about dances with swords, here is the clip:
http://www.irakli.ru/music/legend.wmv

Just a small portion of it is a traditional fighting dance, and unfortunately we already see chinese influence (people flying on strings), but it's not bad.

[ariel]

Rivkin, you brightened my day!
Gorgeous country of beautiful people!
They fell on hard times recently, and there seems to be no way out: no hatural resources except for wine and mzvadi (what we, in our ignorance, call Shishlik).
May God help them to regain their joy of life, glory and happiness!

[ariel]

And here is another Tatar Ordynka:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6544409994&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

This one was on e-bay, but the auction is over and it is no longer active.
It has a Tamga, maybe Perkun can attribute it to a particular clan.

[Rivkin]

Tamga looks like that of Kanly tribe, but there are so many families in this tribe, or Zhapas clan of Bauly tribe (second picture). I think it is the second one, quite a distinctive tamga. Rotation of the symbol relative to the blade's surface is irrelevant.

On the other hand, Kanly is a much more prominent tribe when it comes to europeans tatars, Osman family belonged to kanly (?). On the other hand Bauly where related to parts of Nogai horde, so they were periodicly appearing around Balkans.

[ham]

Ariel,

The sword you mentioned on eBay is a pastiche. The hilt is modern, the blade old. The tamga shown on it was copied out of a book.
Hard enough to learn about these things from originals without being confounded by copies, I say. The seller offered it in all good faith, was emailed when it was recognized as a copy and to his credit has not offered it at auction again.

Ham

[Valjhun]

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

You can always get a meter blade chainsaw to do some damage on the street muwahahahaa :D

Stupid laws by ignorant people :mad:

Rivkin, That's the nicest thing I saw in a while. I like that music very much! Where i can buy a CD?

[ausjulius]

[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
QUOTE]

the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed,
actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife,
but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun,
swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,,
a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags,
found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...

[ariel]

For personal reasons I went to this topic and just have to add something.
The Crimean Tatar swords are rare because all weapons in Crimea were confiscated and armorer workshops closed when the Russians annexed Crimea in 1783. That was one of the earliest actions of Prince Grigoryj Potemkin, who reigned over the newly acquired territory.
Polish-Lithuanian Tatars constituted just a minority of the Crimean population that moved up north and settled within the borders of the Great Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Over there they gradually were exposed to the European weapons and their old ones largely were lost to posterity.
I managed to get an old (1925) article about Crimean Tamgas by a great Crimean Tatar writer, translator, polyglot, calligrapher, historian and ethnographer Osman Akchokrakly. He managed to collect ~400 tamgas and freely admitted that at least 400 more must have existed. When a son got married, he left his father’s home and established his own , he then usually took his father’s tamga and modified it a bit, and so on. Thus, there are clan tamgas and many sub-clan tamgas.
Akchokrakly was fired from the university where he taught languages and history in 1934, went into hiding with his sister in Baku, but the NKVD ( earlier name for KGB) found him there, accused him of being a spy and executed him. He was only 47.
Crimean Tatars were rounded up in 1944 and their entire population was exiled by Stalin to Central Asia. Only few managed to survive and go back to Crimea in 1967. In the 1990s about 260,000 came back. But they neither got their lands/homes back, nor compensated for the losses. Another tragic page of Soviet history. Now there are only few Russian historians trying to research Crimean history. God bless them!

[Jim McDougall]

This is most informative and intriguing, thank you for reviving this old thread and topic!
Actually the subject of tamgas is pretty esoteric, and I recall many conversations with Iaroslav Lebedynsky back in the 90s when he was writing on tamgas. I have a manuscript of his work, which I am not sure if was published.

It seems tamgas are regarded as a notable source in Polish heraldry, and I'm sure as noted, became a basis for many such symbols and devices as used in many ethnic cases in Caucasian regions as well as in Russia and others.
As these are devised independently it would be hard to determine specifics but that tamgas were a compelling source is certainly likely.

As Gotowski noted in his book on Tatar arms, only one example of a Tatar sword exists he is aware of with a tamga, to which Kirill Rivkin agreed. It was noted in my discussions with Lebedynsky that tamgas were not known on Caucasian swords.

However, I have an example of a shashka which while appearing to be Daghestani, Rivkin noted it is likely by a Daghestani craftsman in Vladikavkaz.
On the scabbard chape is a niello device which is compellingly like a tamga, so much so that Lebedynsky published it as such in an article he published.

[ariel]

Jim,
Thank you for the great input.
The issue of tamgas is very incomplete because of its complexity and lack of our knowledge which separate groups owned them.
Mahmud Kashgari in 1073 wrote that Chingiz Khan gave a separate sign ( tamga) to each of the 17 tribes of his empire and that only the Oguz tribe gave birth to 22 clans, in their turn giving birth to sub-clans. Regretfully, there is no information on the structure of the Tatar clan. This is the reason why Akchokrakly who was working only in Crimea found 400 different tamgas and suggested that at least the same number may be found in the future. 800 tamgas among a limited, homogeneous, well-defined population living in a relatively compact geographical space tell us that the number of tamgas went up astronomically since Batu Khan of the Ulus Juchi till the beginning of 20th century!

As to the image on the scabbard chape of the Daghestani shashka, I do not think it is a tamga, because:

First, this looks more like an image of a leafy branch that is found quite often on the shashka scabbard fittings.

Second, Circassia became free of the Crimean vassalage and influence since the end of the 18th century ( Crimea was occupied by Russia in 1783). This shashka can be dated to the Daghestani mass production in a multitude of Caucasian and even Russian workshops i.e. end of the 19th - early 20th century.

Thirdly, Daghestan was never influenced by the Crimean artistic motives.

I am looking for any dissent by the Forumites. Our collective pro/con argumentation might be very helpful.

But I am more intrigued by the niello image on the pommel (?) presumably put on the bare back of it (?). This one does look like a tamga. I checked several sources of tamga images, including of course the Akchokrakly's article , and could not find an analog.
Curiousier and curiousier....:-)

[Jim McDougall]

I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature).

I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall.
As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such.

I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols"
("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ".

Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen:
"Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,.

What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill.
This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals.

The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.)
is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13).
According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c.
This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation.
from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303.

The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source.

I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas.
Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts?

[ariel]

Now I understand!
I looked at the entire image, couldn’t find anything, and thought that the image on the throat of the scabbard was the point of discussion. My fault, mea culpa!
The first image, what I thought was the pommel, is the chape with the shashka upside down.
Yes, I fully agree, this looks convincingly like a tamga. It does have some resemblance to the Kayi mark, but differs from it. Perhaps the owner was a distant member of some sub-sub clan?

Crimean Khans were highly respected by the Ottomans to the point that apparently there was an unwritten ( or even written?) rule that in case of the extinction of Sultan’s line the Crimean Khan , as a direct descendant of Chingiz Khan, would assume the Ottoman throne.
Well, the last Khan, Shahin Giray, was exiled by the Russians to the Turkish Rhodes in 1783 and strangled there in 1787 with a silk cord because he allegedly planned to replace the existing Sultan.
Still, he was strangled and not beheaded or stabbed, because royal blood should not have been spilled. Some measure of respect, but the “rule” worked against him. That was how Sultan’s relatives were killed upon his ascent on the throne to prevent any possibility of a coup, and that was how the Mongols killed Russian princes captured at the Battle of Kalka: covered them with a heavy wooden platform and assembled on top of it for a celebratory dinner , smashing the prisoners to pancakes. Again, no royal blood was spilled:-)

[Jim McDougall]

No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording.

Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned):
"Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor)
Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997
Item #76
"...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum".

That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case).
However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade.

According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular.

As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented.

In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application.

I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted).

[Jim McDougall]

Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion.

Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin.
In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape.
The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c.

Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment.
He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance.

[Edster]

Jim,

Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553

On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007

Also a 1882 US cattle brand book.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/78636#page/3/mode/1up

Best,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs.
In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided!
Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands.

Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.