Help pls. on 15th-17th C. cutlass & scimitar

[migueldiaz]

Hello all! :)

Following an earlier discussion on cutlasses and scimitars in this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7408&page=2&pp=30) on the origin of the kampilan, I wish to pursue my amateur research on said cutlasses and scimitars.

I wonder if anyone can point me to a photo or an illustration of the following:

[1] a cutlass (Spanish preferably) used in the 16th century; and

[2] a scimitar of the type used in Europe during the 15th to the 17th century.

Thanks in advance!

[fernando]

Hi Lorenz

... a scimitar of the type used in Europe during the 15th to the 17th century ...

Do you mean a scimitar used by the Moors in Europe ?
... Not that i can illustrate it; just to make sure that i well understand you. You know the term is a bit tricky.

Fernando

[migueldiaz]

Hi Lorenz

Do you mean a scimitar used by the Moors in Europe ?
... Not that i can illustrate it; just to make sure that i well understand you. You know the term is a bit tricky.

Fernando
Hello Fernando,

Yes sir :) that was what I meant, a scimitar used by Moors in Europe.

And pardon the stupid question :D and my ignorance, but could there have been a scimitar or a scimitar-inspired sword that were developed and used by Europeans during the same said period (15th to 17th Century)?

In other words, would a scimitar be a weapon that was used exclusively by Moors?

Just to be fully transparent, I am not asking the above questions because I already have an idea of what the answer is, and I merely want to validate my own hunch. Remember that I'm an practically ignorant on the subject and thus any info or pic or illustration would be truly appreciated! :)

Best wishes,

Lorenz

[fernando]

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.

[celtan]

Hi Nando,

Nice to see you again on these "lares". : )
I agree with you on the nature of the falcon. The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.

The arabs imported many customs to Iberia, and in fact, most of the so-called moors were eventually Iberian christians who had converted to Islam for many practical motives which do not need be discussed here. Thus, scimitars were also used by the autoctonous european "muslims". OTOH, the arabs also began adopting the type of weapons regularly used in Iberia, of Roman-Germanic style, with long straight or tapered blades, as the famed Tizona (Coaled/Burnt) reflects.

BTW: I can't picture Don Roderic Diaz de Vivar parrying an alfanje with a main-gauche. Perhaps later in the 16th C as with Cervantes in Lepanto against the Turks..?

Take care

Fortuna, Vino y Mujeres!

Manolo

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.

[migueldiaz]

Olá Fernando,

Obrigado muito! :)

Hey, you are certainly one of the experts in the subject. And I appreciate the info and the picture.

Indeed navigating these 'waters' can be tricky, as said. Thus all info or lead will help a lot. So thanks again! ...

PS - By the way, a friend graciously pointed me to this information-rich website (http://www.vicentetoledo.es/) on Spanish swords!

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.

[migueldiaz]

Hola Manuel Luis :)

Thanks, too, for the additional info. I appreciate it!

As an aside and about El Cid, finally I saw the movie (starring Charlton Heston & Sofia Loren) the other day. I like it a lot ... very inspiring.

Had 16th century "Philippines" (an anachronism I understand) only had its El Cid, then the Igorots, Tagalogs, Bisayans, Moros, and all other 'tribes' would had fought side by side against the Spaniards and other would-be colonizers :) :D

But divide-and-conquer works all the time, that's for sure :) Had ancient Filipinos played the role of colonizers in history, I'm sure they would have used the same strategy.

And I'm not trying to open a can of worms here! ;)

Best wishes to all.

PS - From Wikipedia, on El Cid's swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cid#Tizona):

A weapon traditionally identified as El Cid's sword, Tizona [pic attached], can still be seen in the Army Museum (Museo del Ejército) in Madrid. In 1999, a small sample of the blade underwent metallurgical analysis which confirmed that the blade was made in Moorish Córdoba in the eleventh century and contained amounts of Damascus steel [citation needed].

In 2007 the Autonomous Community of Castile and León bought the sword for 1.6 million Euros, and it is currently on display at the Museum of Burgos.

El Cid also had a sword called Colada.

Both swords have been misrepresented in popular culture. La Tizona was actually a one-handed sword, in the late roman style, whereas La Colada was a two-handed sword, greater in length.


Hi Nando,

Nice to see you again on these "lares". : )
I agree with you on the nature of the falcon. The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.

The arabs imported many customs to Iberia, and in fact, most of the so-called moors were eventually Iberian christians who had converted to Islam for many practical motives which do not need be discussed here. Thus, scimitars were also used by the autoctonous european "muslims". OTOH, the arabs also began adopting the type of weapons regularly used in Iberia, of Roman-Germanic style, with long straight or tapered blades, as the famed Tizona (Coaled/Burnt) reflects.

BTW: I can't picture Don Roderic Diaz de Vivar parrying an alfanje with a main-gauche. Perhaps later in the 16th C as with Cervantes in Lepanto against the Turks..?

Take care

Fortuna, Vino y Mujeres!

Manolo

[celtan]

Hi Miguel Diaz,

Be thankful it was the Spanish who colonized Filipinas, and gave you a Hispanic culture besides your native ones. Remember that most other colonizing powers didn't have any place _at all_ for the native populations.

Spain gave Filipinas cohesion as a National entity, the first concept of unity Filipinos had was when you all became Spanish. Before that, it was just a bunch of separated islands more often than not at War with each other. Add to that Chinese incursions, pirates et al.

So, taking that into account, it was not a matter of "dividing", but more of uniting against common enemies, and that's exactly how all Nations are born.

Best regards

;)

Manuel

BTW: There's lot of dissension about the Tizona being the real McCoy. It is believed by most Spanish historians that the one currently described as Tizona is another sword of the same period.

[Gonzalo G]

English says the same thing about India...but I seriously doubt anybody should be grateful for being invaded and subjugated by anybody, at the cost of lost of many human lifes, the destruction of cultures and civilizations (spaniards destroyed cultures, english did not, or at least not in the same measure) and the expoliation of their economy and natural resources, to benefit a colonial metropoli and a bunch of spanish parasites, who were empoverished by their richness because they did not produce anything and used their gold to enrich France, England and Holland purchasing there all the goods they were incapable to manofacture, and so the spanish empire began it´s decadence as soon as it started....frankly, I don´t see the need to glorify spanish imperialism, of dubious greatness and gone MANY years ago, at the expense of the countries of origin of the rest of the forumites. Specially when many belong to a really powerfull empires which ripped the poor spanish empire into pieces and ate them calmly. Or expeled the spaniards two centuries ago into the sea in their wars of independence before the impotence and incompetence of the whole spanish armed forces and their government. Curiosly, the few great men Spain had in it´s Golden Age, all them deeply depicted the spanish government and the spanish status quo...or establishment, as we say in modern times. What common enemies did the conquered peoples had with Spain? The United States and England? Did they were the enemies of the meshica (aztecs) or the philipine moro?...ridiculous...Well, at the end, we are grateful of the spanish opression...we could easily shake it off...but more grateful should be the spaniards to the arab domination for SEVEN centuries, as they were complete barbarians when the arab invasion, divided in many kingdoms (still are by local separatisms), under the foreign visigotic rule...and arabs gave them some civilization ¿Of what unity we are talking about, when still today many basques and catalonians do not completely accept the spanish government and speak different languajes than the official castillian?

Miguel, about the scimitar and the falchion: I don´t believe the falchion was the result of any oriental influence. The falchion, known in spanish as "bracamarte", was a medieval weapon. On the times of the crusades and latter, arabs and moors used straight swords. Even the berber which latter came into Spain, used straight swords, and the mamelukes seem to have used initially straight swords. But if you see the representations of the falchion, you can verify that it does not resemble any turkish or arab weapon.

The swords of El Cid are of questionable origin, maybe one of the numerous myths created for national self-glorificaton and as a console of the arab domination, and you must take on account that arabs did not had the need to import european weapons into Spain, as they produced very good ones. That is said without deniying the possibility of arabs, moors or berbers using occasionally european swords, from gifts, purchases or war trophies. After all, the straight blades were the same type of their´s.

Also, the duble handed sword, was not a weapon from the times of El Cid, but a weapon more common in the Modern Era, that´s it, from the end of the 15th Century and forward, and although it already existed at the end of the Middle Ages, it was more often used in this time the hand and a half sword, with a little bigger blade and hilt than the one hand sword. So, the sword used by Charlton Heston on the movie, is another Hollywood invention. The two handed sword is a response to the single plaque armour from the Modern Era, and you can see it much more often on the hands of warriors from the Renaissance, like the landsknechts.

How the word "scimitar" came into the spanish vocabulary? Many believe that the word designates originally different type of swords, from the shamshir to the kiliç, passing throught the pala-gadara, which is the sword illustrated in Fernando´s photograph. But maybe there was much confussion from europeans in front of this new (for them) turkish and persian weapons, and they tended to globalize them under the term "scmitar", designing a curved blade, specially one with a yelman, that´s it, a blade which widens toward the point. The fact is that actually we know every one, or most, of this weapons, and no one is called "scimitar", and the only resemblance we found is in the word mentioned by Fernando: shamshir.

I personally think we should not use the word "scimitar" anymore, as it is ambiguos and obsolete.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: I don´t have for the moment internet connection, so I colud be delayed for any response needed.
Kisses

[Jim McDougall]

Lorenz has asked some most interesting questions, and again I have been reading along with the discussion, as the topics of the history of Spain and its colonies are among my favorites, as of course, are Spanish swords.
In my youngest years I loved studying the conquistadores, and thier exploits in the Americas, and grew up in a region that reflected the profound influence of the Spanish culture, in southern California.
El Cid was also one of my favorite movies, and clearly carried the colorful pageantry that I always thought of associated with Spain's history.

However, like all history, there are often at least two sides, and in reviewing or studying it, there will always be empassioned debates and perspective much in the way politics bring volatility to virtually every venue of media daily.

Once again, I will say that I admire the knowledge displayed on these pages, and especially sense the restraint that is clearly being struggled with in some of the entries. You have all expressed yourselves well, as you have the questions posed.......please leave the barroom chest pounding out of this, along with the political editorials OK guys. I do not want this discussion 'divided' nor do I want to have to 'conquer' this thread !

The focus is on the weapons, and great information on Tizona and Colada!
Great assessment on the ongoing debate on the falchion Fernando, another mystery of medieval swords and thier terminology. It seems more a heraldic term in most cases these days, as like 'scimitar' the term became archaic.

The word 'scimitar' is as described by Fernando, a term whose etymology derives from early transliteration, and was often applied in many flowery narratives in English of those early times to illustrate the exotic sabres of the Moorish world. It is now an archaic term left best to the Elizabethan and Victorian literature that it was most used in, and to the fantasy swords it often names.

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi again, guys.
I completely agree with Jim's reminder that we must stick to the weapons business. Your knowledge in this subject is by far good enough to fulfill the plenitude of this space ... something that does not happen with me, as probably the least school educated character that posts in the Forum.
As i firstly introduced in my perspective, weapons typology is never easy to deal with; allways a struggle with translations, transliterations, ethimologic and semanthic paths ... not to speak of the greatest chalenge in tipyfying weapons, which is: does the discussed term refers to a specific model, or is it no more than a generic name, developed in a determined region to encompass a limited or wide variety of models and submodels coming from remote origins which, missing their name in the local 'catalogue', are baptized by the peoples with a name either alegoric to its shape or capabilities, or instead with a term close to that given if the original region or culture to one of its variations, preferably the most basic one ... such term being eventualy corrupted within time?
When i said that the scimitar could or could not have originated the falchion, i was only quoting sources; i am no scholar or any kind of specialist.
Assuming (then again) that the bracamarte is an equivalent to the falchion, i have just read in one of my humbliest books (Portuguese medieval war men), that such weapon is supposed to derive from the Vicking sax. How's that for an aproach?
I have also found a link, regretfully only usefull for those who can read castillian, where this problematic of the terminology
falchion/scimitar/bracamarte is discussed; complex stuff ... maybe too much sand for my truck.
http://images.google.pt/imgres?imgurl=http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum/download/file.php%3Favatar%3D2247.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D3473&usg=__OuCjNrFHFMoB9FsKrdf6Olt9MEk=&h=92&w=73&sz=3&hl=pt-PT&start=9&um=1&tbnid=vOepzmm3wb-8IM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=63&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbracamarte%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dpt-PT%26sa%3DX
Without failling to see that some the aproaches from the various sides are convergent, i like the way Jim puts it, when he says that the term scimitar was used to 'illustrate the exotic sabres of the Moorish world'. Only i think that it was not only the way, but it still is, namely for the common person.
Fernando

.

[migueldiaz]

Hola Manuel! :)

First of all, thanks for the comment on the Tizona. I didn't know that there's some controversy surrounding its authenticity.

I can only wonder what happened to the career of the people who recommended buying the piece for 1.6 million Euros! :rolleyes:

On the colonization thing, in what you said, there are points I agree with, and on some I disagree. But that's ok ... on the latter we can just agree to disagree :)

As an old friend told me, if two people are *always* agreeing, one is a pope and the other is a dope ... and no offense meant to those whose fondest dream is to become the former! ;)

So for me, all that history is water under the bridge (no hard feelings), and we all just learn from it (what Santayana said is very important), and we move on.

[Jim, sir thanks for kindly reminding everyone to stick to the topic. Like in all discussions though, it's sometimes the "by the way's" that turn out to be more interesting. But like any moving cavalry or sword wielding infantry, we have to have the discipline ... sorry for the stream of consciousness rambling!]

Hey, wife is now blowing the car horn so I have to run now.

But let me thank in advance Jim, Gonzalo, and last but not the least Fernando for the most interesting additional info given. I'll comment and make my follow up queries on those later! But let me reiterate my thanks mi querido amigos, as I truly appreciate the additional info!!

Best regards, Manuel!

Lorenz

Hi Miguel Diaz,

Be thankful it was the Spanish who colonized Filipinas, and gave you a Hispanic culture besides your native ones. Remember that most other colonizing powers didn't have any place _at all_ for the native populations.

Spain gave Filipinas cohesion as a National entity, the first concept of unity Filipinos had was when you all became Spanish. Before that, it was just a bunch of separated islands more often than not at War with each other. Add to that Chinese incursions, pirates et al.

So, taking that into account, it was not a matter of "dividing", but more of uniting against common enemies, and that's exactly how all Nations are born.

Best regards

;)

Manuel

BTW: There's lot of dissension about the Tizona being the real McCoy. It is believed by most Spanish historians that the one currently described as Tizona is another sword of the same period.

[ward]

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much guys, I really appreciate the cooperation! I didnt want this thing to derail, and I want to keep our forum clear of personality issues.

Good notes on the bracamante Fernando...and the illustration looks remarkably like the English one of medieval times known as the 'Conyers falchion', but here again I am drawing from memory.

The scimitar term is indeed still tossed around in lterature and as noted, various fantasy swords.....but actually I have seen the term used in a number of very scholarly historic accounts. I have often been amazed at the text of many military history references, which often include considerable detail on uniforms, artillery and firearms, but swords are reduced to either straight or curved sabres, while the scimitars are cliche', carrying the exotic image of Moorish and Middle Eastern warriors.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk


Just saw this Ward....that would be great to see some detail on this fascinating term, and I think learning more on these weapons as they appear in art would be great. We have seen a lot of such detail shared here with focus on the firearms, especially the material posted by Matchlock (Michael), and to add this dimension is a wonderful idea.
Thanks very much Ward,

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Assuming (then again) that the bracamarte is an equivalent to the falchion, i have just read in one of my humbliest books (Portuguese medieval war men), that such weapon is supposed to derive from the Vicking sax. How's that for an aproach?

Fer, that illustration from a portuguese book is just a falchion, so bracamarte and falchion are the same thing. I was reading the page from the AEEA, and I was wondering what is the word in english for "alfanje". Maybe your "unscholared" person can tell me, because I don´t know. The word "falx", from latin, designated a downcurved blade, something opposite of what we talk about. The scramasax was only a raw, usually straight long knife used by the german tribes. I cannot relate it to the alfanje.

Some authors indentify the scmitar with the alfanje, others deny this relation. In the article about the tipologic study of spanish weapons, German Dueñaz Beraiz denies that alfanje and scimitar are the same thing, but he does not explains what a scimitar is. Instead, he identifies the arab alfanje with the english falchion, the french badelaire, the italian cotellaccio or sttorta and the spanish terciado, and describes it as a "sword with a short, wide and curved blade, with a an austere hilt, normally with straight quillons". Also, he says that some of this swords were used exclusively for executions, in the decapitation of prisioners (German Dueñaz Beraiz, "Introducción al Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas: Siglos XVI-XVII", Gladius, Vol XXIV, 2004, p.219).

And, Miguel, history is not water under the bridge. History is condensed in our present, and it reveals the tendencies toward the future, the hidden currents which moves the actual world. And we have to take sides, or be dragged by the currents to an unknown destiny.
Regards

Gonzalo

According with Beraiz, the description of a scimitar in the way Covarrubias explains, corresponds with a shamshir, and this is the reason he does not accept Covarrubias description, because the scimitars were "more short" than a shamshir from his point of view. But this description also is valid for some kiliç, which in some cases, as in the type some persons call "pala", are short enough to fit in the description. Evidently, there are confussions and ambiguity on what those terms design, and there are not illustrations and secure references to have an unmistakedly ID. And other point: Dueñas Beraiz does not mentions the bracamarte in this article.

But I also think those terms were used in a more lax manner by the common folk, giving birth to this typologic problems. Even in this forum, I have read descriptions of a "dagger", which do not correspond to a double edged short weapon, but to a single edged weapon, and this is strange to me, as many dictionaries in english defines a dagger as a short pointed weapon with sharp edges used to stab or pierce, and in spanish it is of the outmost importance to precise that a dagger is a double edged weapon. Also, we differentiate the puñal and the dagger, being both of them weapons to stab (not excluding the cut), on the fact that the puñal has only one edge, and sometimes, also a short false edge. And if the blade is extremely narrow, we use another name. So, the problem is a little more complex, when entering to equivalences and traslations, as in the case of the question from Miguel.
Regards

Gonzalo

[migueldiaz]

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject. If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk
Hi Ward,

Thanks! and let me kindly reiterate that that we indeed look forward with eagerness to your subsequent posts, as you mentioned. Thanks again ... :)

[migueldiaz]

... Also, the duble handed sword, was not a weapon from the times of El Cid, but a weapon more common in the Modern Era, that´s it, from the end of the 15th Century and forward, and although it already existed at the end of the Middle Ages, it was more often used in this time the hand and a half sword, with a little bigger blade and hilt than the one hand sword. So, the sword used by Charlton Heston on the movie, is another Hollywood invention. The two handed sword is a response to the single plaque armour from the Modern Era, and you can see it much more often on the hands of warriors from the Renaissance, like the landsknechts.
Hello Gonzalo,

Thanks for pointing this out :)

When I posted above the poster of the El Cid movie, I was actually meaning to ask everyone what would be the historical and technical inaccuracies in the movie. Thus thanks for elaborating on this particular item!

Well we all know Hollywood ... they tend to abuse "poetic license".

Like I'm also a (modern) firearms enthusiast. And one of the common rules in firearms handling as many of us know is that "forget everything you learned from Hollywood!" ...

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding information Gonzalo, and its good to have some sound perspective on these often confusing terms as applied to these weapons.

While we have some good momentum focused on the early Spanish weapons, and the comments on Tizona and Colada have really piqued my interest!!
Through most of the day I've tried to find more on the famed swords of El Cid, and have found mostly the confusion of legend and scandal prevailing.
It seems terrible that the fire at the Armeria in Madrid in 1839 led to the unfortunate 'dispersal' of so many of the treasured weapons to London's auction houses thereafter. The re-cataloging of the weaponry remaining was not completed as I understand until Calvert's work in 1898. The weapons shown in his published work "Spanish Arms and Armour" mostly seem to carry a degree of mystery and rather confused attribution. It seems normal that weapons were 'restored' or remounted in earlier times as they represent important heritage and history, and such cases are not at all unusual in many, if not most, museums.

What puzzles me is that some sources claim Tizona was captured by El Cid from a Moorish chief, some that he was was awarded it for his exploits. Some say it was buried with him (some say his horse Babieca was too). Colada is even more of a mystery, as it was said to be two handed, and as noted, these were hardly in use in the 11th century.
While Tizona is supposedly on display in Madrid, its authenticity as of 11th century was questioned, and certainly, the hilt style is of medieval form from the 14th-15th c. I understand that in 1999, a bit of the steel from the blade was metallurgically tested, and found to be of 11th c. type from Moorish Cordoba.
Is that correct? I can understand rehilting, but is this blade, said in some references to have been mounted originally in Late Roman style, the real thing?

I'd really like to hear the views on this.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

I wonder if anyone can point me to a photo or an illustration of the following: [1] a cutlass (Spanish preferably) used in the 16th century; and ...
... The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.
Thanks Manuel for this clarification! Appreciate it.

Dear all,

It would appear then that my query as posed originally would be an anachronism. So I guess I'd have to rephrase the inquiry as, "Can anybody please post here any image or info of a 16th Century Spanish sword?"

Now precisely on that specific subject, I found these two [below] 16th Century Spanish swords, at Arma Española (http://www.vicentetoledo.es/) as cited earlier.

I've tried using Yahoo! Babelfish (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/) for the translation. But I'm getting a not-so-clear translation. Can I kindly request for a proper English translation of the texts?

Thanks in advance! :)

[migueldiaz]

Since these previously posted images are just a few kilobytes each (and thus not burdensome on the server), and also for the convenience of all, please allow me to post here again some of the images lifted from Osprey's The Conquistadores (http://www.amazon.com/Conquistadores-Men-at-Arms-Terence-Wise/dp/0850453577/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b).

[migueldiaz]

Some more ...

[migueldiaz]

Last set from Osprey's The Conquistadores ...

[migueldiaz]

Dear Fernando, Gonzalo, & Jim,

Thanks for the wealth of info that are pouring in! Super!

On the word "scimitar" it would appear then that for practical purposes, the word should be avoided. And the more convenient thing to do is to use more descriptive and precise terms.

Thanks for that 'resolution' and consensus :)

[Gonzalo G]

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk


Ward, of course we are interested!! Please just post it. If you need my mail to send it, just PM me.

[Gonzalo G]

Miguel, I suggest you to pay a virtual visit to the Museo de la Fundación Lázaro Galdiano itself. It has it´s pieces online. I have already posted the link in an older thread, but there it is:

http://www.flg.es/museo/museo.htm

It could be a little tricky to search, but there are many authentic historical pieces there.
Regards

Gonzalo

[migueldiaz]

... I found these two [below] 16th Century Spanish swords, at Arma Española (http://www.vicentetoledo.es/) as cited earlier.

I've tried using Yahoo! Babelfish (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/) for the translation. But I'm getting a not-so-clear translation. Can I kindly request for a proper English translation of the texts?
So here's the original Spanish text, and the corresponding Babelfish translation. The translation is imperfect, but one gets the general idea. It wouldn't hurt though if we non-Spanish speaking folks can get a more decent translation :)

SWORD NO. 1

Spanish description:

ESPADA DE LAZO
Ref. 1-1550-B

(IOHANNES DE LA HORTA)
mediados del siglo XVI

Long T: 1270

GUARNICIÓN: De lazo, italianizante y algo asimétrica en su desarrollo. Nótese la presencia de un solo gavilán curvado hacia el interior, un solo pitón o gancho frontal dirigido hacia arriba y un gran puente que, en sutil curvatura, une la base de la patilla del interior con el arriaz. En el reverso tres ramas parten de las citadas patillas para reunirse en la base del aro guardamano. Escusón en afilada punta. Pomo casi cilíndrico con leve perilla superior. Puño facetado completamente alambrado con torzal, entre dos virolas en cabeza de turco. Todos los elementos se hallan cincelados y damasquinados.

HOJA:Ancha, llana (sin mesas marcadas) con dos filos y breve talón. Canal en su tercio fuerte.

INSCRIPCIÓN: IOHANES DE LA HORTA. Punzón A (en un cuadrado del recazo)

OBSERVACIONES: Según Palomares Iohanesde la Horta forjaba en Toledo en 1545.

English translation c/o Babelfish:

BOW SWORD

Ref 1-1550-B

(IOHANNES OF THE HORTA)

half-full of century XVI

Long T: 1270

TRIMMING: Of bow, italianizante and something asymmetric in its development. Nótese the presence of a single sparrowhawk curved towards the interior, a single pitón or frontal hook upwards directed and a great bridge that, in subtle curvature, unites the base of the sideburn of the interior with arriaz. In reverse the three branches they leave from the mentioned sideburns to meet in the base of the hoop hand guard. Escusón in sharpened end. Almost cylindrical Pomo with slight knob superior. Facetado fist completely fencing with torzal, between two ferrules in Turk head. All the elements are chiselled and damascene works.

LEAF: It widens, trowel (without noticeable tables) with two edges and brief heel. Channel in its strong third.

INSCRIPTION: IOHANES OF THE HORTA. Striker pin A (in squaring of the back)

OBSERVATIONS: According to Iohanesde Pigeon houses the Horta forged in Toledo in 1545.

Would anyone care to comment on the awkward translation?

Thanks!

[migueldiaz]

And the other one:

SWORD NO. 2

Spanish description:

ESPADA DE LAZO (TOLEDO)
finales siglo XVI

Ref. 1-1590-B

Long T: 1.290

GUARNICIÓN: De lazo, cincelada con maestría, con pomo troncocónico descansando sobre peana y ésa, a su vez, sobre virola. Puño cilíndrico con marcados surcos en espiral, arriazen cruz de rectos gavilanes y escusón central poligonal. El lazo propiamente dicho lo forman tres puentes frontales, de cuyo superior arranca un brazo hasta la mitad del aro, las ramas posteriores en número de tres y las patillas que surgen del arriazy, en arco de circunferencia, van a la base del recazo. Conjunto armónico y muy bien logrado.

HOJA: Ancha, con dos mesas por cara y canal central en su primer tercio. Filos a ambos lados.

INSCRIPCIÓN: TOLEDO

OBSERVACIONES: Situamos el arma a finales del s. XVI y comienzos del XVII época de oro de las espadas de lazo.

English translation c/o Babelfish:

BOW SWORD (TOLEDO)
end century XVI

Ref 1-1590-B

Long T: 1.290

TRIMMING: Of bow, chiselled with trunkated cone masters, pomo resting on pedestal and that one, as well, on ferrule. Cylindrical fist with noticeable furrows in spiral, arriazen cross of straight sparrowhawks and escusón central polygonal. Bow proper bridges form it three frontal, of whose superior it takes an arm until the later half of the hoop, branches in number of the three and sideburns that arise from arriazy, in circumference arc, go to the base of the back. Very well obtained harmonic set and.

LEAF: It widens, with two tables by face and central channel in his first third. Edges to both sides.

INSCRIPTION: TOLEDO

OBSERVATIONS: We locate the weapon at the end of the s. XVI and beginnings of XVII the time of gold of the bow swords.

The machine translation is for better translation, please? :)

[migueldiaz]

Still on the conquistadores, here's another title that I should buy one of these days: The Conquistador: 1492-1550 (http://www.amazon.com/Conquistador-1492-1550-Warrior-John-Pohl/dp/1841761753).

[migueldiaz]

Miguel, I suggest you to pay a virtual visit to the Museo de la Fundación Lázaro Galdiano itself. It has it´s pieces online. I have already posted the link in an older thread, but there it is: http://www.flg.es/museo/museo.htm
Gonzalo, got this, thanks!

Will take a look at this now.

Lorenz

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Miguel,
Pretty good job working on the translations, as if I am any authority ..I dont speak or read it either, but can sometimes cobble a general overview.
Not sure about the pidgeon house thing :) All I know is in the 17th century, Palomares put together some boxed panels of illustrations of makers marks, then numerically labeled them.

On the Conquistador book...the Osprey titles are great....work excellent for me with limited library space...and I just ordered 'The Conquistadors' by David Nicolle (also an Osprey title)...I just like Nicolle's work (my opinion, easy on the critical reviews everybody :).

We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

... Fer... I was wondering what is the word in english for "alfanje". Maybe your "unscholared" person can tell me, because I don´t know ...
I would be the last person able to tell you, Gonzalo; as said before, that is too much sand for my truck :eek: .
I go one place and it says: Scimitar; i go another one and it says: cutlass. Apparently there is no strict translation. Likely this term never turned into english vocabulary.
It seems as alfange is connected to Persian FAchar, or Urdu URchar, originated from the Arabic ARchar (Al khanjar); poping around through the Spano-Arab al-hangal ... pretended by others to be al-janyar (puñal?).
If you go by the digestive description/definition, you fall into the bottomless well of the short, slightly curved wide blade sabres range which, in its widest interpretation, embraces the European falchion, fauchar, bracamarte, messer, storta, the Turc Kiliç, the Indian talwar, the Arab saif ... not to speak about their Spanish (Peninsular?) keen alfanjón, alfanjonazo and alfanjete; even the terciado (so much discussed in the kampilan thread) or the chafarote ... look at me, breathless :eek: .
Maybe in a first aception you could consider the alfange a composite 'pattern', partly European and partly Oriental. Shorter but heavier than Oriental sabres, with a false edge that could well come from the longsax, the 'cutlass' or the falchion, generaly equiped with an 'S' guard, like the bracamarte, the messer and some late falchions. Beautyful specimens, like the one attached, were made and exported from renascent Venice ... the pieces you are looking for, Lorenz :cool:
It is also written that the term alfanje (later alfange) was used in medieval Iberia to define Moorish curved swords, shorter and wider than scimitars; such being potentially the weapon used in the Muslim conquest of Penisula..
The alfanje is also cited by Cervantes in Don Quixote:

"-Vos sois quien la necesita», respondió el manchego, y abrió la batalla con un tajo tan desmedido, que si el arma fuera un alfanje, allí quedara el portugués para la huesa"

" ... and opened the battle with such an enormous slash that, if the weapon were a an alfanje, there would remain the portuguese for the grave"

End of this unschooled chapter :eek: :eek: :eek:

Fernando

.

[migueldiaz]

... We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.
Jim, great idea! And I'll follow that other new thread with great interest for sure :)

[migueldiaz]

... It seems as alfange is connected to Persian FAchar, or Urdu URchar, originated from the Arabic ARchar (Al khanjar); poping around through the Spano-Arab al-hangal ... pretended by others to be al-janyar (puñal?). If you go by the digestive description/definition, you fall into the bottomless well of the short, slightly curved wide blade sabres range which, in its widest interpretation, embraces the European falchion, fauchar, bracamarte, messer, storta, the Turc Kiliç, the Indian talwar, the Arab saif ... not to speak about their Spanish (Peninsular?) keen alfanjón, alfanjonazo and alfanjete; even the terciado (so much discussed in the kampilan thread) or the chafarote ... look at me, breathless :eek: ... the pieces you are looking for, Lorenz :cool: ...
End of this unschooled chapter :eek: :eek: :eek:
Fernando, wow that's a very beautiful sweeping panorama, the way you walked us through those swords! If that's what "unschooled" means, get me out of those learning institutions :D Thanks! :)

[Gonzalo G]

Mmmm, Fer...I don´t believe the arabs of the conquest used any curved sword, but very late on the 15th Century. This venetian weapon I believe is a sttorta, and the longsax is a similar weapon, but maybe all of them are called "alfanjes" by the spaniards, so the word continues being ambiguos, and does not designates a precise and specific weapon. Seems a good sword to figh on the sea, by the way. Miguel de Cervantes fought against the turks in the maritime battle of Lepanto, where he lost a hand.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

As for the traslations, this is my free version:

For the first image

LOOPS AND RINGS RAPIER
Toledan
End of the 16th Century

Hilt: Loops and rings, chiselled with great mastery, with a truncated cone pommel resting over a rounded base, and then over a ferrule. Cylindrical hilt, deeply grooved in a spiral, straight guard quillons and polygonal block. The loops are made with three wires, the central one continues as a knuckleguard. The posterior part of the loops are united with the rings, which extends to the end of the recasso. A very armonic and well made work.

Blade: Wide, diamond profile with a fuller in the first third. Double edged.

And the next:

LOOPS AND RINGS RAPIER
Iohannes de la Horta
Middle 16th Century

Hilt: Loops and ring, italian style, and a little asymmetric in it´s development. Note the presence of only one quillon curved toward the point of the sword, only one wire directed to form the knuckleguard and a big loop which goes from the recasso to the cross in a subtle curvature. There are three loops over the recasso joining at the cross where the knuckleguard begins. Very pointed block. Pommel almost cylindrical, but rounded in it´s superior portion. Faceted hilt completely covered with brided wire among two ferules in the form of a "turk head" knot. All the elements are chiselled and damasquinated.

Blade: Lenticular, double edged and fullered in the first third.

Inscription: Stamped on the recasso with an "A", from Iohannes de la Horta swordmaker.

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, wow that's a very beautiful sweeping panorama, the way you walked us through those swords! If that's what "unschooled" means, get me out of those learning institutions :D Thanks! :)

Fernando is most modest, and by 'unschooled' simply, in my understanding, means not necessarily formally schooled in degree. In my personal estimation, often self education can exceed such categorized results....well illustrated by the knowledge he openly shares here!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, great idea! And I'll follow that other new thread with great interest for sure :)


Thanks Lorenz! I'm looking forward to developing that too. Kept me up most of the night thinking on it......curiouser and curiouser!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

As for the traslations, this is my free version ...
Finally, a translation that makes sense!

Thanks a million, Gonzalo :)

[migueldiaz]

Fernando is most modest, and by 'unschooled' simply, in my understanding, means not necessarily formally schooled in degree. In my personal estimation, often self education can exceed such categorized results....well illustrated by the knowledge he openly shares here!
Amen, Jim :) All of us had our formal education, but nothing beats passion in (informally) educating ourselves in the thing we really like.

Thanks Lorenz! I'm looking forward to developing that too. Kept me up most of the night thinking on it......curiouser and curiouser!!!
Jim, as we are dealing here with supposedly the world's most famous sword/s, I'm not surprised. And I'll try to contribute to that other thread with whatever significant info I'll stumble upon.

Best regards!

Lorenz =)

[migueldiaz]

Maybe these excerpts from Medieval Swordsmanship will also help in the discussion:

[migueldiaz]

Here's the rest of the excerpts (in which only one page will be attached per post, as sometimes if the attachments are many per post, the sequence gets jumbled). So this would be page 2, and so forth, and so on:

[migueldiaz]

page 3:

[migueldiaz]

page 4:

[migueldiaz]

page 5:

[migueldiaz]

page 6:

[migueldiaz]

page 7:

[migueldiaz]

page 8:

[migueldiaz]

page 9:

[migueldiaz]

page 10 (last):

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
European Hunting Cleavers usually part of a Trousse or set. First photo is German 15th Cent. the other two similar. Falchions possibly developed from earlier versions of these type of 'butchering' tools.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Another incarnation of the 'chopping' sword, Dussack, Tesak etc.
Regards,
Norman.

[Gonzalo G]

Beautiful pieces, Norman, and your point of view is very interesting.
Regards

Gonzalo

[migueldiaz]

European Hunting Cleavers usually part of a Trousse or set. First photo is German 15th Cent. the other two similar. Falchions possibly developed from earlier versions of these type of 'butchering' tools.
Another incarnation of the 'chopping' sword, Dussack, Tesak etc.
Hi Norman,

Those are beautiful examples! Thanks for sharing those pics.

And we can surely get a lot of insights merely by observing them (and marrying those observations to the earlier remarks of Fernando, Gonzalo, Jim, and Manuel).

It appears to me then that in arming the ordinary warrior, whether in the West or in the East, the origin of his sword was that it must have come from a utilitarian civilian blade (a butcher's meat cleaver, a farmer's jungle 'bolo', etc.), that eventually found itself getting employed as a weapon (a falchion, a bracamarte, or in the case of the Igorots, the pinahig).

Thanks again,

Lorenz

PS - Ward, where are those images you promised? [looks at watch] :D

[migueldiaz]

Reviewing the info posted above on the falchion, the bracamarte, and the other cleavers and choppers, one cannot help but see a possible similarity in the evolution of certain ethnic Phil. swords.

For instance in the case of European swords, it was proposed that the falchion was an intermediate form (see att. below), and said falchion then eventually morphed into the cutlass, the saber, etc.

As an aside, one wonders whether the original generic Phil. bolo when it became the pinahig or the binagong or the bangkung, were the equivalent of such intermediate form.

And then (to continue the speculation) the Moros merely further pushed the envelope until they came up with the pira and the kampilan, for instance.

[We can recall that Cato said that the bangkung is a much older form amongst the Moro blades.]

Once again, these are my own "unschooled" musings :D Hopefully we get inputs from the experts, to either validate or refute this (wild) theory! :)

But we are really talking here about European cutlasses and 16th century Spanish swords. So pardon me for the digression ...

[Gonzalo G]

Neverthless, we must distinguish among straight blades with curved edges, from the curved blades...of course, also with curved edges. I think the weapon called alfanje had a curved blade, and according with Beraiz, also the scimitar. but in the case of the last one I feel not certainty.

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

Mmmm, Fer...I don´t believe the arabs of the conquest used any curved sword, but very late on the 15th Century ...

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:
... the type of swords used by the folks of the center and northern Peninsula, inherited from Roman civilization, of vertical disposition, short and solid, but lacking artistic attire, ended up being influenced by the aptitude and elegance of Muslim swords, at least in the upper parts (hilts...) by the hands of Mossarabs; this giving logic to specimens appeared by mid IX century, in Spain, Portugal and the Fench Midi, which development in European territory can not be denied.

Fernando

The pictures attached are not necessarily reliable.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Miguel, nicely done on the excellent work by Mr.Clements, those groupings of profiles really help in the discussion and looking at the development annd comparisons of types. Thank you for posting them for those of us who do not have this reference at hand.

Also, well placed digression to the Philippine versions of these, as it is always to see the widespread diffusion of many European influences into other cultures, and if none directly exists, the similarity regardless.

Norman....(thinking of the 'Crocodile Dundee' cliche').....
..now THATS a cleaver!
and thank you for those dussacks, granddaddies of my favorite, the Scottish basket hilt.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:


Yes, Fer, there is much evidence that the islamic armies used straight swords easily until at least the 13th Century, if not latter. The nasrid caliph Boabdil used a straight sword. For easyness to find, just look into the books from David Nicolle. Which is your source? I don´t have much confidence in literary sources. They must be revised carefully. Remember that Cervantes did not fought the arabs in Spain, but the foreign turks on the sea, and in that time the knowledge of turkish weapons was already introduced in Spain. But you are not speaking of Cervantes, so, which is your source?
I also think that the most inmediate influence over the christian cavalry swords were not the roman swords, but the visigotic. Even the late roman cavalry sword, the spatha, is in great debt to the sword of the germanic peoples.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Jim, I don´t see any european influence there. Maybe even the machete is the result of the influence of the indonesian-phlippine over occidental weapons, isn´t it? At least, I can trace the ancestry of the machete among this eastern patterns, and not in the european arsenal. I don´t deny the mutual influences, but they are not something as the result of the "civilizing influence of Europe over the world." Philippines and Indonesia were first influenced by the indian and islamic cultures, but they never lost their local cultural identities.

[migueldiaz]

Miguel, nicely done on the excellent work by Mr.Clements, those groupings of profiles really help in the discussion and looking at the development annd comparisons of types. Thank you for posting them for those of us who do not have this reference at hand.

Also, well placed digression to the Philippine versions of these, as it is always to see the widespread diffusion of many European influences into other cultures, and if none directly exists, the similarity regardless.
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments!

The European influence on Asian blades is indeed one big factor. And hundreds of years even before Magellan and crew landed in southeast Asia (the present day Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.), Portuguese, Italian, and other European explorers and traders had already been frequenting Asia as we all know.

And am sure it was a two-way street -- Asian craft for sure was influencing European blade designs as well.

Going back to Spanish conquistador weapons, we see the illustrations below from one of Osprey's conquistador titles, for commentary as usual:

[migueldiaz]

Would appreciate more help and comments, please! :)

[And by the way, thanks again to Gonzalo for referring me the LINK (http://www.archive.org/details/spanisharmsarmou00calvuoft) from where the book Spanish Arms & Armour, which is now in the public domain, can be downloaded (a 45 mb download).]

So I found in the book this image of a 16th century cutlass (the rightmost sword). May I inquire from anybody please as to the cutlass' country of origin, as well as any other info about the same?

Thanks in advance!

[Gonzalo G]

Looks italian, and I wouldn´t call it a "cutlass".

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments!

The European influence on Asian blades is indeed one big factor. And hundreds of years even before Magellan and crew landed in southeast Asia (the present day Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.), Portuguese, Italian, and other European explorers and traders had already been frequenting Asia as we all know.

And am sure it was a two-way street -- Asian craft for sure was influencing European blade designs as well.

Going back to Spanish conquistador weapons, we see the illustrations below from one of Osprey's conquistador titles, for commentary as usual:

Well, Augustus (Cesar Octavius) sent an embassy to the chinese court through Southeast Asia. The relations are not ignored. The mutual influences are still to be established based on scientific grounds.

[migueldiaz]

Looks italian, and I wouldn´t call it a "cutlass".
Thanks for the comment! :)

Well, Augustus (Cesar Octavius) sent an embassy to the chinese court through Southeast Asia. The relations are not ignored. The mutual influences are still to be established based on scientific grounds.
Don't know about that one in particular, but thanks for the info.

Other explorers who for sure were "agents" of the phenomenon of the West influencing the East (and vice versa) would be Marco Polo (1254-1324) and Ibn Battuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta) (1305-1377). The latter is supposed to have even reached the Philippines.

And then there's the Italian Niccolò de' Conti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccolò_Da_Conti) (1395–1469) and Ludovico di Varthema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_di_Varthema) who both reached what is now present day Malaysia and Indonesia.

Thus I think it would be safe to assume that Asia had been influencing Europe (and vice versa) even way back then. The only thing that would be hard to pinpoint would be the magnitude of each one's influence over the other.

[fernando]

... Which is your source? I don´t have much confidence in literary sources. They must be revised carefully ... But you are not speaking of Cervantes, so, which is your source? ...
Well Gonzalo, what can i say ? The guy is certainly more an intelectual than an arms technician; but he appears to have some lights in arms evolution.
His name is Alfredo Guimarães (1882-1958); Museum Director, member of the Academy of Fine Arts.
In the first part of the book prologue, he says:
The peninsular subsoil, rich in mineral species like silver, copper, tin and iron, was celebrated by the antiquity geologists and, upon it, Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians , Romans, Visigoths, Persians and Arabs developed their industrial activity, until the politic religious unification which crystallized, in the occident, the triumphs of the reconquest.
Giving the Phoenicians a notable activity in the works of argent and copper matters, exercised above all in the peninsular coast, and to the Visigoths a certain personality in the works of goldsmithery and numismatic, in reality, on what concerns the construction of defence weapons conceived in terms of art, we only possess notice of Roman and Persian-Arabic production, occidental, being in this way able to establish, under influence of the two peoples, the path that drives us in this matter, until the beginning of our national life.
Roman and Arabic armoury are however two kinds of under the artistic point of view, determine, in the form as in the technique, the domain of two civilizations fundamentally heterogeneous. One being Latin and the other Oriental, marking therefore poles opposed in character and development of their respective workshops, Roman civilization left us a sword model of vertical disposition, short and solid, but absent of artistic attires, whereas, under designation of peoples to which decorative arts were always an indispensable attraction, Oriental civilization impregnated us with inflexed armoury, damascened and sometimes enamelled, under active effect of artistic faculties. Therefore, in the military combats that took place after the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the re curved models of their country of origin. The Reconquest fights intensified and submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs of the center and north of the Iberian peninsula, there can be no doubt that Muslim arts soon exercised certain influence spirit is western armoury and is by influx of the same that, in Mozarab artistic activity, of vertical sword, which was supported, as said before, in the Roman model, suffering t5he effects – at least in the superior part of the pieces – of the aptitude and elegance of the artists of neo-christian workshops. From where logically, the specimens appeared by mid IX century, in Spain, Portugal and the French Midi, and which development in European territory can not be denied.
Then the author weaves considerations on the evolution of the sword, mainly on their artistic side, which i roughly sinthetize here:
Figure 1. The so called Frank sword, on which setup we can still see a a Roman architectural trace, but also exhibiting Mossarab innovations, in the pommel, grip and guard.
Figure 2. The shape of the XI, XII and XIII centuries, to which we owe a lot.
Figure 3. The so called Gineta.
Figure 4. The evolution of “Passot” and “Gavilanes” (quillons).
Figure 5. The so called fallen cross sword.
Figure 6. The Carlos V (Spain) “Espadão” (large sword), dedicated to chiefs of the Lansquenets.
Figure 7. Another Espadão, with various innovations like, for the hand protection, thick flocks of silk, which also served as decoration.
Figure 8. The Mandoble (two handed), of dimension prolongated to two and half meters, with a blade of Arab artistic expression (XV century).
Figure 9. A sword of highly decorative values, XVI century.
Figure 10 and 11. Lace swords, for Aristrocacy dressing, but ending up being used for combat in Africa, Asia, America and Oceania.
Figure 12. The Lighthouse or Eslavona sword, particularly esteemed in Italy and Spain, and here, in a special manner in Cataluñia and Valencia.
Figure 13,14 and 15. The Cazoleta, Concha (shell) and Taza (cup) swords; provenient from Spain, mainly after the usurpation period (Filipes), with the most perfect and complete influences of Oriental art.
Figure 16. The sword of King Dom joão I, Mestre de Aviz (XIV century).
Figure 17. The sword of Nuno Alvares Pereira (the hero of Aljubarrota – XIV century).
So sorry if i went much off topic; hoping some of this material has the minimum interest.
Fernando

.

[katana]

Hi Fernando :) ,
is it me, or is figure 1, a Model 1831 French Infantry Short Sword

Regards David

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

... In the article about the tipologic study of spanish weapons, German Dueñaz Beraiz denies that alfanje and scimitar are the same thing, but he does not explains what a scimitar is ... According with Beraiz, the description of a scimitar in the way Covarrubias explains, corresponds with a shamshir, and this is the reason he does not accept Covarrubias description, because the scimitars were "more short" than a shamshir from his point of view ...

I browsed on this article. Do i see it differently, or have i read a different passage ?

"Relacionada con esta tenemos otra arma de origen árabe, como es la cimitarra. A pesar de que Covarrubias diga que es igual que el alfange, eso si remarcando la curva de su hoja, al decir que es una espada vuelta a manera de hoz (Covarrubias, op. Cit. 283 r). Esta tipología se corresponde a los shamsires turcos, que resultaban algo más largos que los alfanjes, con hojas más estrechas y curvadas."

Isn't it Beraiz, opposing Covarrubias, who defines that a scimitar, like a samshir, is larger than an alfanje, with narrower and more curved blades?
Or am i confusing things?
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi David,

... is it me, or is figure 1, a Model 1831 French Infantry Short Sword ...

I understand one instinctively thinks so.
But maybe the idea is to consider that the French glaive is inspired on the IX century Frank sword ... says my innocent self ;) .
Remember the Gladius Hispaniensis and all that?
The grip of this sword could be in ivory, bone or wood, sometimes damascened; the blade, enlarging in its width, still preserves the pointed form of the Romanized exemplars.
Fernando

[migueldiaz]

... Then the author weaves considerations on the evolution of the sword, mainly on their artistic side, which i roughly sinthetize here: ...
Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for continuously sharing to us your knowledge and your materials on the subject! All I can say is "super!" :)

This sure puts the swords we are talking about in a much much better perspective.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Lorenz

[celtan]

Hello all, I’m just back from dealing with literally explossive issues. And here, waiting for my arrival, Gonzalo left me another.



Again, I think this is something to be addressed outside of the forum, as I have repeatedly said before. But since Gonzo’s post was published, I believe I have the right to answer same in kind. My heartfelt apologies to those not interested in the subject.



And it goes:



English says the same thing about India...but I seriously doubt anybody should be grateful for being invaded and subjugated by anybody, at the cost of lost of many human lifes, the destruction of cultures and civilizations (spaniards destroyed cultures, english did not, or at least not in the same measure)



Spanish incorporated native cultures into their own, and doing so, exposed them to interactions with the one they brought. In the end, the americans themselves decided which one was better and more useful. The less popular and useful simply faded away, just like arameic. Its called evolution.



and the expoliation of their economy and natural resources, to benefit a colonial metropoli and a bunch of spanish parasites, who were empoverished by their richness because they did not produce anything



Parasites like the Incas and the Aztecs..? No, I don’t think so. Spain became an administrative center, and while this model eventually became outdated, it did all right for several centuries. No small feat.



and used their gold to enrich France, England and Holland purchasing there all the goods they were incapable to manofacture, and so the spanish empire began it´s decadence as soon as it started....



Actually Gonzo, most of the Spanish Gold ended up in India, of all places.



Everything decays, living per force also entails dying. Which does not mean that we should avoid living in order not to die…



frankly, I don´t see the need to glorify spanish imperialism, of dubious greatness and gone MANY years ago, at the expense of the countries of origin of the rest of the forumites.



I have never done that, your words are a rather childish attempt to antagonize me to other posters, by default enlisting them on your “side”, whatever that is….



Specially when many belong to a really powerfull empires which ripped the poor spanish empire into pieces and ate them calmly.



Oh Really..? What I have learned from studying post grad History is that Spain destroyed itself from the inside, right after the Napoleonic wars, albeit the beginning of the end may be found at the Battle of Rocroi vs the French gallant Duc d’Enghien, with the destruction of most of the veteran Tercios and the military teachers cadre. All this out of a mere Royal whim...



Ate? : ) Seems like little ol’ Spain was a tough bone to gnaw. It took three centuries for the combined powers of England, France and Holland to bring Spain down, and this as low as Mexico has ever been able to raise itself. : )



Or expeled the spaniards two centuries ago into the sea in their wars of independence before the impotence and incompetence of the whole spanish armed forces and their government.



Yeah, yeah. Curiously, it was the criollos, the American born descendants of the Spanish who managed that (in a very, very close call that left both Mexico and Venezuela virtually uninhabited )not the local rebels. In fact, most of the native populations fought beside the Spanish against the oppression of the criollo landholders. An even the criollos required massive unofficial assistance from the British, and reinforcement from Spanish Regular army expatriates.



The latter were regular soldiers from Riego’s republican armies, who left the Peninsula evading Ferdinan VII absolutist forces and the 100,000 French Sons Of Saint Louis. In sum, the Spanish Empire was actually brought down by Ferdinand VII’s francophyllia, his return to absolutism, and his abolition of the popular Cortes.



Curiosly, the few great men Spain had in it´s Golden Age, all them deeply depicted the spanish government and the spanish status quo...or establishment, as we say in modern times.



Do you meant “despised” perhaps? Mexican Spanglish is a tad difficult to understand sometimes, although understandably so, in view of its post-Iturbide’s History.



So? The Spanish have always been their own most acerbic critics, like today's USA. And yet, this does not detract the slightest bit from our pride in ancestry and love-of-country.



Heck, the few well educated men in 21st C. Mexico despise far more the Mexican government, than the Spanish ever disliked their own!



What common enemies did the conquered peoples had with Spain? The United States and England? Did they were the enemies of the meshica (aztecs) or the philipine moro?...ridiculous...



Nopey, I meant the Aztecs, who were hated and despised all over 15th C. Mexico, and their like. The Chinese who wanted to conquer Filipinas. The Cambodians who wanted to conquer Thailand, etc…



Well, at the end, we are grateful of the spanish opression...we could easily

shake it off...


Remember the Spanish stayed in Veracruz for as long as they wanted? Heck, they even w returned along with French and British, to recover unpaid debts, defeating everything the Mexicans threw at them When both Brits and Spans realized that the French planned to stay, they both left Mexico because they refused to saddle themselves with the unholy mess you made, of what once was the wealthiest part of America...
.
C’mon, Gonzo. There’s nothing that the Mexicans can shake off, in fact, you guys got nothing to shake! You are the most despised nationality in all of America, so much so, that you can’t even stand yourselves!

You Mexicans are your own worst enemies, creating storms within glasses of water, and then congratulating yourselves for having “weathered” them thanks to your vast nautical abilities...It’s really ludicrous, you know.



but more grateful should be the spaniards to the arab domination for SEVEN centuries,



Presence: yes. Domination: not really. More likely a cohesive military and economic control of certain key areas, mostly Southern Andalucia. The fact is that Spain was very underpopulated ( 6 to 10 million), and the invading Omeya-Iranian armies were very few (There were never more than 60,000-100,000 ethnic arabs in Spain at any one time), which meant that most of the population never even saw a “real” Arab, specially taking into consideration the ruggedness of Spain’s terrain and the remoteness of the villages.





Culturally-wise, the Spanish did convert to Islam in staggering amounts, and this mostly because it was convenient. Meaning, most of Spanish Arabs were actually Spanish.



as they were complete barbarians when the arab invasion, divided in many kingdoms (still are by local separatisms), under the foreign visigotic rule...and arabs gave them some civilization ¿Of what unity we are talking about, when still today many basques and catalonians do not completely accept the spanish government and speak different languajes than the official castillian?



Just like in Mexico, where even today 1. every so often you get Indiadas risings?, where 2. many of the local inhabitants speak their own dialects?, whose 3. Spanish is often quite difficult to recognize as such? 4. Where the inland Indians deridingly call their city-dwelling Indian brothers “ispanioles”? Yep, your native unity touches my heart…



The arabs incorporated many scientific findings from the civilizations they conquered by means of fire and sword, but were not that great Scientist themselves. In fact Gonzo, Islam expressly forbid trying to understand God’s ways. It was downright Heresy, and It could be punished by Death. Not a very scientific mind-set, if you ask me.

Kisses?



I will not touch that comment with a ten-foot pole…



Toots




; )




Manuel Luis





Again: Gonzo, if you’d like to continue this discussion, do it through PMs.

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Gonzalo



I browsed on this article. Do i see it differently, or have i read a different passage ?

"Relacionada con esta tenemos otra arma de origen árabe, como es la cimitarra. A pesar de que Covarrubias diga que es igual que el alfange, eso si remarcando la curva de su hoja, al decir que es una espada vuelta a manera de hoz (Covarrubias, op. Cit. 283 r). Esta tipología se corresponde a los shamsires turcos, que resultaban algo más largos que los alfanjes, con hojas más estrechas y curvadas."

Isn't it Beraiz, opposing Covarrubias, who defines that a scimitar, like a samshir, is larger than an alfanje, with narrower and more curved blades?
Or am i confusing things?
Fernando


No Fernando, I am sorry, but It is just that I think you read wrongly the same passage. Let me first translate, to the benefit of the forumites:

‘In relation with this, we have another weapon of arab origin, which is the scimitar. Although Covarrubias says that the alfanje is the same that the scimitar, but more curved, when states that it is a sword bended as a sickle (Covarrubias, op. Cit. 283 r). But this typology is related with the turkish shamshirs, longer and heavier than the alfanjes, with blades more narrow and curved.’

OK, Fernando, based on this description, can you say Beraiz has defined or described the scimitar? I don’t think so. At the best, you can infer that the shamshirs are longer and heavier than the alfanjes, with blades more narrow and curved. In other words, Beraiz says that the alfanje and the scimitar are not the same weapons, and also enumerates some differences among the alfanjes and shamshirs. But it says nothing about the scimitar itself.

I call the attention to the point that even two spanish specialist in swords do not agree if alfanjes and scimitars are, or are not, the same weapon, and with the lack of trustable illustrations about this kind of swords. Also, the lack of records among available authentic swords existing to the present day, mentioning arab ‘scimitars’ and ‘alfanjes’. In my opinion, those terms were used vaguely and imprecisely to refer to other curved weapons from the Middle East and the near Orient, and there are not swords we can call today scimitars and alfanjes, but the european Renaissance weapons already mentioned. I believe it is not a mere coincidence nobody can show today any arab, turkish or persian authentic alfanje, but only references and illustrations of weapons made in Europe.

And, I’m sorry again, Fernando, but I personally find your source with insuficient credentials, with all due respect. You have to have knowledge of the swords, far more than the traditional descriptions you can find on old books and museographic references, so full of mistakes and gaps. Your quote from this person does not add much light on the subject of the scimitar (the subject of the present thread), but it does make me think about the nature of the author’s approach. First, I can tell you that there are many references in this forum from Jim McDougall and others, stating that the early islamic swords (the time of the arab conquest) were straight and not curved. But there are more specialists on the subject, whom I will enumerate latter as suggested readings, as I don’t like very much quoting out of context. First, we don’t know when and by whom curved swords were carried into Europe. It seems that the avars, who invaded Hungary, were the first ones. It is said that the saber of Charlemagne, according with some sources, comes from his wars against the avars. The oldest known saber from islamic procedence, was unearthed in Iran, and it seems to belong to a 9th Century turkish slave warrior. Latter, maybe carried by central asian turkish groups, this type of blade had more diffusion into actual Iran, Middle East and North Africa, but it came very late into Spain. Just take on account that Spain was the far-west islamic dominion with respect to Iran-Persia, and the curved sword had to travel in some way to the Iberian area. It seems that even early mamelukes or mamluks used straight swords. The arabs which invaded Europe used straight swords. The latter invasions from North Africa into actual Spain used straight swords. If you know the Gineta or Jineta sword, carried by the berber zenetes, you will know what I mean. The preserved swords from the late nazarid period, also were straight. The men el Cid fought to, used straight swords. This is the reason the Tizona, which is a straight sword, is been called as ‘andalusian’, meaning an arab weapon, independently if it is not from El Cid. Also, the Gineta swords illustrated in your post, are straight. We will not question in this moment why these swords are classified as ‘ginetas’ by some spanish scholars.

You have to take on account, also, that the words ‘saif’, ‘kiliç’, and ‘shamshir’ only designate a ‘sword’ of no specific form in their original languages, and that those swords also came with straight blades. In the case of the shamshir, it seems that still under the arab rule it has a straight blade, and it was until latter, before or after the mongol invasion, but probably not under the arab dominion over Persia, it took the curved form. This is a subject yet not clarified satisfactorily, but at least the curved shamshir seems to have not predominated under the arab rule. So, the great development of curved shamshir comes from a turkish or a mongol period, and not arab, as a result of central asian influences.

As from other parts of your quote, I find them very questionable. Of course, Roman and Arabs belonged to different cultural environments…and timelines…maybe the preislamic arabs or other semitic nomads (in the nabatean and the yemenite kingdoms, or the numids, for example) used roman style swords, or at least straight swords reminiscent of the roman. But I cannot characterize the mass of christian swords from the Reconquest as ‘roman’, though some of the spanish peoples could use some kind of short sword in the roman style. Most of the medieval swords in your illustration are germanic long swords (from diverse origins: visigothic, viking, saxon, frankish, etc.) And the germanic swords do were decorated, if in a different way than the arabic. I don’t think the islamic art influenced the romanic swords, but instead the germanic ones. The first sword from your illustration, looks like late roman, and not frank, but I can be completely mistaken. As I don´t have much knowledge of the frankish swords. In fact we don’t know to which degree romans decorated their swords, as we have but few examples, mostly in very bad shape, and maybe from common soldiers. Decoration was determined by the rank and richness of the sword owner, so many swords from common arab and berber soldiers were also ‘absent of artistic attires’. You have to take on account also the availability of decoration techniques on the arab empire and in the european kingdoms, which seem to be more primitive in their technologies. The technique of damanascening was unknown outside the arab area in the Iberian Peninsula for a long time.

And, what does it mean the statement: ‘submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs of the center and north of the Iberian peninsula’? I don´t know id I undertood well, but it seems that your author believes that there were persians and arabs alongside in the Iberian Peninsula…another questionable point, to say the less. And, finally, there were muslim units during the arab conquest which used the straight short sword blades, roman style.

To make a personal verification of the arab swords, please see:

‘Some issues in the studv of the pre-Islamic
weaponry of southeast Arabia’
by D. T. Potts, in Arabian archaeology
and epigraphy, Denmark, 1998

Early Islamic Arms and Armour, by David Nicolle,
Instituto de Estudios sobre Armas Antiguas, 1963

‘The Sword in Islam’, by Zaki Abd al R., in Studies in Honour of Prof. K. A. C. Creswell, El Cairo, 1965

‘Jihad and Islamic Arms and Armour’, by David Alexander, in Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002

‘La Espada de Protocolo del Sultán Nazarí Muhammad V’, by Virgilio Martínez Enamorado, in Gladius, Vol. XXV, 2005

‘Las Armas en la Historia de la Reconquista’, by Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer, in Gladius, Vol Especial 1988

‘Swords and Sabers During Early Islamic Period, by David Alexander, in Gladius, Vol. XXI, 2001

‘Una Espada de Época Omeya del Siglo IX D.C., by Alberto Canto García, in Gladius XXI, 2001

El Cid and the Reconquista 1050 . 1492, by David Nicolle, Osprey Military (Collection Men-At-Arms Series, No. 200), 1996

The Moors - The Islamic West 7th - 15th Centuries A.D., by David Nicolle, Osprey Military (Collection Men-At-Arms Series, No. 348), 2001

Armies of the Muslim Conquest, by David Nicolle and Angus McBride (or is Jim McDougall?), Osprey Military (Collection Men-At-Arms Series, No. 255), 1993

Saladin and the Saracens, by the same authors, Osprey Military (Collection Men-At-Arms Series, No. 171), 1996

Also, you can search images in the web from the swords of the ayubids (the dynasty of Saladin in North Africa and part of the Middle East), the Gineta swords, the nasrid swords, and so on. They are real swords from the time period.

I want to bring here another reference to the scimitar from the article by Dueñas. On pages 10 and 11, he writtes: ‘One type of weapon, less known and fabricated in Spain on the 16th Century, was the terciado. According with Covarrubias (Covarrubias, op. Cit. pág. 85), it´s name was originated on the fact that the length of the blade was smaller than the third part of the marca. If we take on account that the marca was of five quarters of a vara, equivalent of 83 cm, the terciado should have a length of 50 cm approximately. Furthermore, he says that it was a short and wide sword , but does not mention if it was curved or straight, or if it had one or two edges. This widthness is confirmated in several texts from this time, like this:

The giant arosed the cane to Marcelino, but he tilted his body and the cane hitted the floor, and the cane jumped off the hand of the giant. Then he took a terciado, which was very wide and strong, and tried to hit Marcelino destroying part of his shield, but Marcelito hitted him back’.


‘Another possible synonym of this type of weapon is the machete. Which was defined in this time same as the terciado, who was not as long as the sword, nor as short as the puñal or the daga (Covarrubias, op, Cit. pag? 531r). It is possible that the only difference was that the machete, more than being a weapon, was a tool, a knife of great proportions useful in agriculture and cattle raising. From other references it can be deducted that the term terciado was used as a synonym of the expression scimitar. Maybe it was the term in Castilian to refer to this arab weapon.

He fell upon the weapons of a soldier,
Taking his quiver and a terciado.
Which now used over a less strong shoulder,
Of the wide scimitar he ornated the narrow band.
(Oña, 1596: 251)’

So, we find here an hypotheses: that the terciado and the scimitar could be the same weapon. Also, that the terciado and the machete could be the same weapon, being the only difference the working purposes of the machete. There is no specification to the form of the blade, if it was straight or curved. We have to take on account that the machetes were not only a working tool in those times, but also a weapon used in the 19th Century in place of the sword and the saber by the non mounted soldier and specialist of the spanish army, meaning all the infantry, artillery, grenadiers, engineers, musicians, etc., and their blades varied drastically along the time. So, we have to precise what kind of machetes Dueñas Beraiz is referring to, but the most common type of machete had a straight blade and a curved edge. So, it was not a curved type of sword or working tool. It is also possible that the terciado was the direct ancestor, or the same weapon than the espada ancha.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: Fer, I apolgy for my delayed response, but I previously said in other thread, I have problems with internet connection. In the future, I will respond a little late, but I will respond.

[Gonzalo G]

Celtan, Manolin, sorry but I find your posts about this subject very boring, useless, off-topic, biased and not very constructive for all the froumites. Your spanish-centerd vision-compulsion is absurd and uninteresting. I will not waste my valuable time and the few moments I can get into internet answering a late pile of idiocies. But I will fight you any time you persist in dealing with subjects politically or ideologically biased into your fascist ideas and your self-cultural-centrism, and especially in off-topic areas forbidden to deal with on this forum. Please don´t bother to answer me on this matter. Neverthless, in other matters, you are a nice guy and I love you.
Kisses

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Jim McDougall, I couldn´t find my questioning to a previously statement you made, and I must make a public apology of my mistake. I found a source for your statement about arabs importing european blades into their dominions in Al-Andalus in actual Spain in the early stages of their domination there. I have not read previously that source, so it is my mistake to deny such big imports in the early history of muslim rule in that area. Why did you not mention it to me before, when I asked for? I wonder to which extent in time these imports were necessary.
Regards

Gonzalo

[celtan]

Gonzo,



If you’d rather lie in the perpetual dream of Aztlanic navel-ism , then do so. It’s your prerogative. But I will not allow you to preach your lies-of-convenience uncontested, specially if you try to do so at the expense of Spain or the US, whose Histories I’m relatively well versed in.



Otherwise, let’s keep to the subject of bladed weapons, and perhaps we can make it a productive arrangement after all.



Toots!



: )





Celtan, Manolin, sorry but I find your posts about this subject very boring, useless, off-topic, biased and not very constructive for all the froumites. Your spanish-centerd vision-compulsion is absurd and uninteresting. I will not waste my valuable time and the few moments I can get into internet answering a late pile of idiocies. But I will fight you any time you persist in dealing with subjects politically or ideologically biased into your fascist ideas and your self-cultural-centrism, and especially in off-topic areas forbidden to deal with on this forum. Please don´t bother to answer me on this matter. Neverthless, in other matters, you are a nice guy and I love you.
Kisses

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo,
Just a couple layman senseless loose notes ...

... Let me first translate, to the benefit of the forumites:
‘In relation with this, we have another weapon of arab origin, which is the scimitar. Although Covarrubias says that the alfanje is the same that the scimitar, but more curved, when states that it is a sword bended as a sickle (Covarrubias, op. Cit. 283 r). But this typology is related with the turkish shamshirs, longer and heavier than the alfanjes, with blades more narrow and curved.’

It's funny; i still don't interpreter it that way but, being you spanish speaking, i will not presume i am right and you are wrong. I even think there is a problem of punctuation in the text :shrug: .

And, I’m sorry again, Fernando, but I personally find your source with insuficient credentials, with all due respect.

Maybe yes, maybe not. I wouldn't diminish him so quickly. I am only citing parts of the work, with my interpretation and translation limitations. Besides, every now and then he quotes people that are certainly within the subject, presupposing that he is not 'inventing' the whole thing; guys like Pompeo Gener, Cobn-Wiener, Raimundo Koechlin ... who ever they are ;) .

Your quote from this person does not add much light on the subject of the scimitar (the subject of the present thread),

If i well remember, my post was an evolution on the probability of curved swords, scimitars or other, appearing in the peninsula, handled by Arabs (or Muslims) at such early stage, after being said (by you at least) that curved swords appeared a good couple centuries later.

If you know the Gineta or Jineta sword, carried by the berber zenetes, you will know what I mean. The preserved swords from the late nazarid period, also were straight. The men el Cid fought to, used straight swords. This is the reason the Tizona, which is a straight sword, is been called as ‘andalusian’, meaning an arab weapon, independently if it is not from El Cid. Also, the Gineta swords illustrated in your post, are straight. We will not question in this moment why these swords are classified as ‘ginetas’ by some spanish scholars.

I am aware that the gineta was produced in Granada by the XIII century and copied by the christians by the XV century in Toledo, and was later westernized; but this doesn't avoid peoples to use more than one type of sword in the same period of time, as frequently occurs ... right ?

But I cannot characterize the mass of christian swords from the Reconquest as ‘roman’, though some of the spanish peoples could use some kind of short sword in the roman style.

Maybe we are shortening time spans. The romanized sword like in figure 1 was on between the IX and mid X centuries. The reconquest went on for seven centuries;certainly things changed whilst it lasted. Figure 2 pretends to represent the sword used during XI, XII and XIII centuries; this was the model with the greatest credits. Certainly an European design, with pommels having the knights crests engraved which, besides heraldic representation, were used as seals to press on the wax of parchments.

Most of the medieval swords in your illustration are germanic long swords (from diverse origins: visigothic, viking, saxon, frankish, etc.)

Maybe 'most' is a strong term, but no wonder; swords in the peninsula alternated their influence from Perso-Arab, Mozarab and European ... in a random sequence and returns.

The first sword from your illustration, looks like late roman, and not frank, but I can be completely mistaken.

Naturally this is the illustration of the sword evoluted from that quoted of Roman tradition, used by the locals against the Arab invaders, appearing in the IX century with Mozarab influences. I guess the author uses the term frank in a different meanning than that of it having Frankish origins... sort of free, like in free style, or the like; he even puts frank sword between " ".

And, what does it mean the statement: ‘submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs of the center and north of the Iberian peninsula’? I don´t know id I undertood well, but it seems that your author believes that there were persians and arabs alongside in the Iberian Peninsula…another questionable point, to say the less.

The Arabs with whom Tarik invaded the Peninsula in 711 included Sirians, Egiptians, Persians and Berberes.

To make a personal verification of the arab swords, please see:

I already decided that i will soon order a couple Nicolle works.

I want to bring here another reference to the scimitar from the article by Dueñas. On pages 10 and 11, he writtes: ‘One type of weapon, less known and fabricated in Spain on the 16th Century, was the terciado. According with Covarrubias (Covarrubias, op. Cit. pág. 85), it´s name was originated on the fact that the length of the blade was smaller than the third part of the marca. If we take on account that the marca was of five quarters of a vara, equivalent of 83 cm, the terciado should have a length of 50 cm approximately. Furthermore, he says that it was a short and wide sword , but does not mention if it was curved or straight, or if it had one or two edges.

So it appears that the term terciado (terçado in portuguese) was (also) one of those atriibuted to various types of sword throught time.

So, we find here an hypotheses: that the terciado and the scimitar could be the same weapon.

At least the Portuguese chroniclers often mention the terçado as a weapon ( also?) used by the Moors.

In the future, I will respond a little late, but I will respond.

Take your time :cool:

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

How disappointing. The subject of these swords, the history of Spain and the colonies in its empire ( I hope I worded that properly as I wouldnt want any of the combatants here to take offense), in what promised to be an extremely informative discussion, completely trashed by personality laden , barbed cattiness.
I've said it before....I wanted the discussions here clear of that kind of nonsense, and thought what I had noted was understood.

In order to spare any more suffering or embarassment for the rest of us, I think we'll have to wait to learn more about this subject another time, and I hope the parties here that are obviously most learned on this history will try to brush up on diplomacy. Its actually pretty easy....it it really necessary to be insulting to make a point? No, but it does take some skill and above average patience and understanding to take the time to craft the message.
I honestly expected more.

Thread regrettably closed.

Jim