What a bizarre sword!

[ariel]

From another forum.
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/79/416782-0.html
There is a muzeum description ( upper right corner). French speakers, enlarge, and translate, please!

[RSWORD]

Even more unusual that the thing has a scabbard!

[VANDOO]

AHA! THE DEADLY SOCK SWORD CARRIED BY FRENCH FOOT SOLDIERS :D

[Emanuel]

The top is a physical description of the blade and handle, which apparently is in the shape of a gun handle (in the oriental style)
The interesting bit is partly covered up by the scabbard.

"Ce sabre a ete _____ Cavalerie Legere espagnole pendant la
Campagne de 180 _____ par les ___ des chevaux de la Cavalerie
Lourde francaise p_____
Cree par le general_____"

"This sabre has been____ Spanish Light cavalry during the
Campaign of 180_____by the ___ of the horses of the French
Heavy Cavalry___
Created by the general ____"

So all the important parts are lost :shrug:
It's an early 1800s sword though, unless the 0 is something else. Napoleon's invasion of Spain??

Maybe something like a zaghnal? And since it has something to do with horses, maybe it was used to trip cavalry. Napoleon had some Mameluke troops at the time didn't he?

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

And here is the sword in question with the blown up description.

[Emanuel]

- double post - please delete

[Emanuel]

Notice that from the angle of the handle and its shadow, the scikle part actually turns backwards...that or the handle is put on the wrong way.

[Jim McDougall]

Bizarre is an understatement !!! I sit here staring at this thing after completely losing control after Vandoo's 'deadly foot sword' comment !!! LOL!
and trying to see if the scabbard opens all the way down the back.

Emanuel offers some rational thoughts, and trying to break through the humor I am completely baffled by this.
Looking forward to some more clues,
as Holmes always says to Watson,
"...the games afoot!!" :)
sorry, couldn't help it,

Jim

[Tim Simmons]

The work on the scabbard reminds me of Kaskra and Shotel? If it was used like a Mambele the handle would be the right way round?

[mross]

Looks to me to be 10 Iron for use when it's really rough. :D

[Ferguson]

That's just cool. Notice how the back of the scabbard is open. The guard fits over the mouth of the scabbard to hold the sword in.

Steve

[G. McCormack]

blade is maybe shaped like a letter, calligraphy from some script? How odd...

[katana]

Interesting weapon ....the sickle 'end' seems to have a central ridge....suggesting a 'diamond' cross-section. If this is the case it is double edged....so perhaps the handle is correctly placed.

I can see this being used to 'ham string' Cavalry Horses ....

Regards David

[fernando]

Could it be:

... "Ce sabre a ete utilisé par la Cavalerie Legere espagnole pendant la Campagne de 180 _____ pour couper les jarrets des chevaux de la Cavalerie Lourde francaise p_____Cree par le general_____"

"This sabre has been used by the Spanish Light cavalry during the Campaign of 180_____ for cutting the hamstrings of the horses of the French Heavy Cavalry___ Created by the general ____ ...

A version of halberd blade, used to cut the horses tendons ? :confused: .
Fernando

[Emanuel]

"jarrets" looks right Fernando, i couldn't make out the word.

Mystery solved then about what it's for :)
Now who the hell came up with it.

David, the handle bulb is not facing the same way as the scickle part, that's why I said it might be on the wrong way.

Emanuel

[katana]

Hi Emanuel,
intuitively I believe the outer edge of the sickle would have been mainly used for the 'cut'.

Bravo Fernando....it was there for all to see....if you can decipher Francais...my French is limited to "je voudrais une bière " ;) :D

I also found that a common tactic during the Madhist uprising involved tribesman hiding/playing dead during the initial Cavalry charge and melee.....and then trying to hamstring the horses on their return .....often using their Kaskara

Regards David

[Spunjer]

lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

[fernando]

....if you can decipher Francais...my French is limited to "je voudrais une bière " ;) :D

I thought you Brits could only say: gi'me a pint a bitter ;) :cool: :eek:
Fernando

[katana]

lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

I do hope there's a shorter version ;) :D :D


I thought you Brits could only say: gi'me a pint a bitter ;) :cool: :eek:

Fernando

Now....now Fernando, not all us Brits are the same....
.......some might say.... 'gi'me a lager' ;) :p

Regards
David

[fearn]

Good grief!

Actually, I think this "sword" came early in the evolution of the game of hockey. It's what they used before they invented hockey sticks. They had to switch to sticks because they were losing too many players to the noble sport of Spanish Sword Hockey.

The Basques also preserved a version of Spanish Sword Hockey, except they called it Jai-alai......

:p :p :p :D :D :D

Best,

F

[Atlantia]

I do hope there's a shorter version ;) :D :D




Now....now Fernando, not all us Brits are the same....
.......some might say.... 'gi'me a lager' ;) :p

Regards
David

We have a reputation for being masters of the double entendre!
So it would be "Mine's a large one!" ;)

[Oriental-Arms]

About a year ago this sword (or a very similar one) landed in Tel Aviv, Israel. A colleague collector purchased it in a very respected shop in Paris, hence i suspect it is the very same sword. The seller (which I consider a knowlegeable one) said exactly what is in written in the label shown above: Spanish, late 19 C. used again the French cavalry.

I had the questionable pleasure to restore the scabbard which arrived quite shattered (mailing damage). Yesterday I visited this collector and took few photos - Attached.

The blade is very well forged, with a central fuller, double edged on its entire length. The grips are hardwood and scabbard is wood with steel reinforcing mounts - all painted black (original color). Two carrying rings. Total length 36 inches.

Enjoy it.

[broadaxe]

Could it be:



A version of halberd blade, used to cut the horses tendons ? :confused: .
Fernando

I had seen this sword in person several years ago in the mentioned store, Paris. The seller caimed the same.

Ha ha :D some intersting things do end up over here...

[nKante]

it seems difficult to swing! Would it have been used hanging low, trailing behind the rider in order to slice a passing horse? I could also see it cutting saddle straps that way.

[ariel]

I do not think so: it looks like a kind of scythe. Must have been swung widely, to slash through anything in its way: a Grim Reaper, if you like.
If so, the rest ( kris-type "luks", blade with a fuller etc) was just for show.
In the medieval Europe, scythe blades were mounted vertically on a long handle, making them a formidable peasant weapon.

[broadaxe]

I had the chance to swing it a little today :D
amazingly light and well ballanced, high quality. It is, however, somewhat awkward due to its weird "scorpion sting" shaped blade, and one should pay extra attention as it is sharp all the way around. The cage-like sub-guard holds the sword sheathed in place.

[asomotif]

Amazing sword...

I have not too much problems with swords, knives and whatever injuries they inflict to soldiers/warriors in combat situation.
But thinking of the horse that encounters this monsterous blade :eek: :(

In London there is a memorial for animals saying "they had no choice".
Food for thought :rolleyes:

[Rick]

I always think of the Horses . :(
The first target .... :(

Thankfully we need them no more for combat . :)

[fernando]

... Thankfully we need them no more for combat . :)

Cool :cool:

[ariel]

It used to be claimed that the modern prohibition of the "below the belt" hit in saber fencing stems from the old ban on hitting the horse during cavalry fights.
In fact, horse was always a desired target and this is indirectly witnessed by the elaborate horse armor in each and every military culture.

All is fair in love and war.

[Queequeg]

lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

Hunga Munga remounted on a shamshir hilt and handle? ;)

[ariel]

A remarkably well-educated and knowledgeable participant on another forum has identified it as... Corrida implement!
According to him, descriptions of such a device can be found at:

M. Defourneaux, "L`Espagne au siecle d`or", 1996.
Page 176

Théophile Gautier,Voyage en Espagne 1862.
Page 353

and in multiple other Spanish and French contemporay sources.
It was allegedly used by peons ( maintenance workers) at the corrida to immobilize and to slaughter the still-alive bull.
Spanish colleagues: any access to first-hand information?
French speakers: can you verify the above sources?

[Emanuel]

Here is the Gautier source:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=hMbQEM-JrEYC&lpg=PA325&ots=Mv1QWtlYgj&dq=Th%C3%A9ophile%20Gautier%2CVoyage%20en%20Espagn e%201862&pg=PA353#v=onepage&q&f=false

He describes a "media-luna" or half moon, aka crescent, on a staff used to cut the bull's tendons and effectively immobilizing it so it can be finished off. No illustration is give.

Haven't found Defourneaux yet.

[Rick]

'on a staff .'

I would not like to attempt this with a sword-length implement .
Too close for my comfort .

Have recently seen a horrible youtube goring of a Matador .*

I'll pass on this job .




*no links please!

[Marc]

A remarkably well-educated and knowledgeable participant on another forum has identified it as... Corrida implement!
According to him, descriptions of such a device can be found at:

M. Defourneaux, "L`Espagne au siecle d`or", 1996.
Page 176

Théophile Gautier,Voyage en Espagne 1862.
Page 353

and in multiple other Spanish and French contemporay sources.
It was allegedly used by peons ( maintenance workers) at the corrida to immobilize and to slaughter the still-alive bull.
Spanish colleagues: any access to first-hand information?
French speakers: can you verify the above sources?Hmmm... pretty unlikely, I'm afraid.
The "medialuna" or "media-luna" was (still is) indeed a tool to hamstring the bull, not only in the "corrida" but also in cattle-herding. I managed to find a picture of an old one:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mgVxez2djAo/SXD535QhroI/AAAAAAAAAOo/jvW3DaXZdRU/s200/1-mate_s46%5B1%5D.jpg

It is also known as "desjarretadera" ("harmstringer"). There's some modern variations that are no longer crescent-shaped. It was used at the end of a long staff (as it's mentioned in Gautier), in Spain and in areas of Spanish influence.

http://educasitios2009.educ.ar/aula50/files/2009/11/Dos-gauchos.JPG

I'm no specialist, so I might be wrong, but it would really surprise me if the "sword" in discussion was such an instrument...

Best,

Marc

[Gavin Nugent]

Hmmm... pretty unlikely, I'm afraid.
The "medialuna" or "media-luna" was (still is) indeed a tool to hamstring the bull, not only in the "corrida" but also in cattle-herding. I managed to find a picture of an old one:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mgVxez2djAo/SXD535QhroI/AAAAAAAAAOo/jvW3DaXZdRU/s200/1-mate_s46%5B1%5D.jpg

It is also known as "desjarretadera" ("harmstringer"). There's some modern variations that are no longer crescent-shaped. It was used at the end of a long staff (as it's mentioned in Gautier), in Spain and in areas of Spanish influence.

http://educasitios2009.educ.ar/aula50/files/2009/11/Dos-gauchos.JPG

I'm no specialist, so I might be wrong, but it would really surprise me if the "sword" in discussion was such an instrument...

Best,

Marc

Marc,

A very interesting post, thank you for showing your research here and Ariel thank you for starting and following through on this thread and a special thanks to your comrade.
Marc, the images you have bought to light here certainly helps my mind draw parallels to the same pole weapon found in some Chinese martial schools.
So many weapons are considered to have developed from a farming background, now it supports my thoughts in some way with this example shown below.

Thank you

Gav

[tom hyle]

very interesting. Seems to be Persian, and in line with a tradition of fanciful/decorative Persian blades. Seems like it would handle similarly to a shamshir?